I know there are plenty of Advantech fans here. I’ve never used it. Is its primary advantage its water resistant nature? Are there any other advantages?
jt8
“Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned.”
— Buddha
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Replies
Boy that one dropped like a rock. Maybe there aren't as many Advantech fans here as I thought. Huber anyone?
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
-- Buddha
I use it. Mike Smith uses it.
Dense, flat, smooth, premarked for nailing,
Waterproof, as far as the advertising and my usage. Got the floor down, glued and nailed on two jobs and the skies opened up for days. With the walls up the bottom plates held the water in. When the sun came out and the water was squeegeed off there was some discoloration but no raised edges or swelling. Nail heads were slightly rusty but no big deal.
Holds flooring nails and staples with a vengeance.
Current price (NE FL) $36 per 3/4" sheet, delivered, of course.
So what does everyone use for glue & fasteners?
I've got 27 sheets waiting for me to finish placing joists. Any favorite adhesive? Will I be fine using 2-3/8" ring nails, or are screws or some other sort of nails better? (I've got a Paslode impulse framer, so if nails work well, that would be ideal).
Do the tongue & groove joints slide together well when placing, or is there a lot of "persuasion" involved?
Also, as this will be for the upstairs floor in my garage/workshop, I wasn't planning on putting any additional floor covering over it. Any sealers or paints I should consider?
Thanx
Don
Polyurethene floor paints are great for that.I use the same nailer and nails. A pneumatic can be faster but since yoy already have the Pasode...I use PL Premium for adhesive. It works on damp lumber, cures hard, goes further than traditional adhesives because it expands somewhat to voids, so it is both better and less expensive in the long run.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I had a horrible time with Advantech and glue. The glue grabbbed very quickly, making it hard to slide the sheets together. Blue said that my problem was that I laid the sheets down gently rather than dropping them so the glue spreads properly. In the end I gave up on glue. For nails I used 8d galv ringnails. They really hold.
Ran by the small town lumber yard about a mile from my next project.
3/4" t&G CDX was $32
3/4" T&G Advantech was $30
With all the fans of it around here, I wonder if maybe I should give it a try.jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
they're both about 35 here
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I use Advantech and it is a great floor, but expensive. I'm thinking of using Home Depot's Sturdi-Floor OSB or Ply. The first is $25 and the second $28. I could save $500 on a 1600 sq.ft. house and it looks as sturdi in the store. Way better than regular OSB. I think we are paying for the name now with Advantech. We'll see....
modern..... i'd be curious about the relative merits of the Advantech Vs the Sturdi-floor
the test is a sample piece of Advantech and the same sample of Sturdi ( or whatever ) in a pond for a week..
$500 is $500... but it might be the best $500 you ever spent.... or notMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
modern... i went to HD today.. i didn't see any Sturdi-Floor..
but they were pushing "Home Advantage" 23/32 " ... $ 29.95.. no literature on it.. and i couldn't find anything on the internet
guy said they were selling a lot of it for roofing ( our wind load requires either T&G or solid blocking )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Smith shops ay Depot, unbelievable......Mike I think the stuff you saw was the stuff I was telling you about, I think there was an info sheet at my stores...I'll grab it and see what I can find out. It does look a lot better than standard osb.
My dirty mind thought the xmf stood for ex mo... fo... but Hey wadda I know.
I finally started laying down my Advantech today. Getting the T&G together was definitely an issue.
The panels slid on the glue fine (PL Premium), but in order to get the tongues to go in at all, I had to use 4 ratchet straps to pull it in.
That actually worked well, but I may have to get some additional straps or cleat something to the floor as I add courses, and run out of strap length.
Given the amount of pressure I had to apply with the ratchet straps, I can't imagine that I would have been able to get them together at all by pushing or beating on them. What does everyone else do?
I hooked the strap hooks over the edges of the panels, protecting them with the heavy cardboard corner protectors that came on the stack under the banding. This was a little dicey as the hooks didn't get a really good bite and wanted to pop off in the direction of my head. I'll do something about that for the rest of them (9 panels installed, 18 to go).
I never measured the sheets, until I got close to one end of the building (started in the middle) and realized that I was a little off of where I thought I'd be. Measured the sheets, and discovered to my surprise that the sheet's 48" width includes the tongue, which gives an effective 47 & 1/2" width. You'd think they'd allow for that so that you get a full 48" coverage. Not a big deal, but I'll have to fill in the last 4" or so with a 3/4" board.
Also, someone mentioned using a polyurethane paint on this (I won't be putting any other floor coverings on, as this is just the upstairs storage/shop portion of my detached garage). Any particular brand/type anyone would recommend, that would be moderately priced and preferably non-skid?
Thanks,
Don
don...... first, they are designed so they don't completely close up..
2d... we use a 4' or so pc. of 2x4 , laid against the groove edge and tunk it with an 8 lb. sledge ( if i can find it) or a 10 lb. sledge ( if i can't find my 8 )
they go together very easy....
for that application, my paint choice would be an acrylic deck enamel
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/2/2005 11:33 pm ET by MikeSmith
No hammering/pounding/twisting/injuries or cursing here. I use 2 long 3/4" bar clamps pulling against 2x cleats screwed to the previous sheets as well as on the grooved side of the new sheet. I can stand on the new sheet while turning the screws, thus helping guide the tongues into the grooves.
PL adhesive and #8 rings on the printed schedule. Floor no bouncie or squeakie.Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
Don,
Any t@g ply product I've ever used measures the same way, 4' including the tounge edge, wether plywood or advantech. We save all scraps for the final few inches as long as it will fall under the wall plates.
As for sliding together, I suspect the product you got may have been setting around a while if it went together that hard. Our experience with Advantech has been that it slide together better than any other product we've used. Usually just a couple light taps with a sledge against a 2x4. If it's left outside for a long period of time {like maybe a return from someone elses jobsite } it will pick up enough moisture to affect the fit.
This is the first time I've used a t&g product, so I didn't realize you don't get full 48" coverage. (actually my first real building project, aside from helping my dad with a couple pole barns.)
As for moisture swelling, I had this delivered a week or so after Katrina, so I could avoid the expected price increase. It's been covered, didn't look like it had been sitting around beforehand, and doesn't visually look any different from when I got it. That said, this October was the wettest on record here in NH.
Anyway, what I'm doing seems to work, I just need to adapt for the longer distance.
Thanks to all for the replies.
One thing we found, and maybe this is obvious to the more experienced so forgive my naive suggestion, is that nailing the mating edge of the previous sheet made it nearly impossible to get the new one to slide in. If we just tacked the far side of the previous sheet, the new one fit in much easier. We would then go back and nail the first. By doing this, we actually nailed one sheet behind, but it made life much easier.
Don, if you are having trouble installing advantech, you are doing something wrong.
It is the simplest of all t&g products becuase it lies so flat. A wavy set of floor joist will impact it, but even then, it's relatively easy.
There are several common mistakes that I witness. You probably are committing all of them.
Mistakes: 1) letting the glue get tacky. 1a)moving the sheet too much, thus scraping away the 3/8" bead 2) using too small of a hammer 3) trying to force the entire tongue in at once 3) driving the sledge downward at a 45 degree angle. 4) not recognizing when the tongue isn't lining up and trying to force it instead of finding a way to align it. 5)nailing the edge of the previous sheet instead of letting the last ten inches float a little 6)too short of a bumper stick
If you avoid the above things, you should be able to install the sheets by yourself. We NEVER use two guys to install advantech. One guy might lay, while the other nails and cuts, but essentially every man is an island.
My prodecure-i'm assuming I'm in the middle of the deck: Please understand that the procedure leading up to laying the sheet is very important. 1) install glue bead full length of every joist that this sheet will cover. 2) stand sheet gently and horizontall on the tongues, on the joists, holding the tongues close to the grooves that they will mate with. 3) gently bump the butt ends together.
Now, the sheet is well positioned and ready to drop into place. If you do this right, the sheet will land within a 1/2" of it's final resting place and usually won't need to be adjusted any amount side-to-side.
Laying the sheet: 1)let the sheet fall trying to let both ends leave your grasp simultaneously. This works best with one guy standing in the middle. 2)as the sheet drops, "grab" it with your toe. 3)when it hits, it slightly bounces-drag it backwards with your toe.
Quite often (at least 50% of the time), when I land the sheet, the tongue is already started in the groove somewhat.
Now, here's the number one reason that the kids struggle and old guys don't: Using a 7' or longer bump (2x4): 1)start away from the existing sheet. 2) start at the corner-18" away is good. 3) give the sheet a light tap with your 16# sledge, which begins the shoehorning process. your feet should be holding the 2x4 tight to the ply 4) in rythym, move to the center of the sheet and give it a moderate whack. 5) if the sheet needs another light tap, do it. If you slam it, you will bounce it out.
If you need more than 2 light taps and one moderate whack, your sheets probably have damaged tongues or you have alignment problems.
Occasionally the tongues will be aiming higher than the groove for varios reasons. Some guys will call for a heavyweight helper to stand on the seams. I don't usually call for help. Instead I lift the groove edge of the sheet I'm driving and insert another stud under the edge. This changes the angle and aims the tongue properly. I then take another stud, stand it up on edge and follow my tap, drive, tap routine.
The hardest part about advantech is the heaviness of the stock.
The number one thing that will make this job easy is the right weight tool. The 16# sledge has the energy to move my fat body, which is standing on top of the heavy plywood. I don't have to exert very much downswing energy. The inertia of the 16# sledge is usually plenty enough if I give it a very light start. The next most important thing is lining up your hammer. On it's final five inches of flight, it should be moving parallel to the tops of the joist. It shouldn't be swung downward at an angle. Swinging it at an angle substantially reduces the force of the tool and ruins the lumber.
I always re-use my lumber when I'm done. If you are shredding your 2x4, you probably should re-evaluate your technique.
I once met a guy that told me he was good at "jumping the plywood in". I was puzzled. He showed me. He layed the plywood and then just jumped at it till it was seated. I laughed. I prefer my method.
blue
Your reference to shredded 2X4's cracked me up. I ended up shredding numerous PT 4X4's trying to get my sheets to engage. Like Don, I had a terrible time with Advantech. Earlier you said that my main problem was with the glue -- letting down the sheets too easily. All your advice sounds great, and it would be excellent if the lumber yards would give us DIYers a flyer with that info when we buy Advantech. For example -- how tight is tight? My instinct with a T&G joint is that it should close up nice and snug. Now I learn that some natural clearance is built into the product.
"Too soon old and too late smart."
For example -- how tight is tight? My instinct with a T&G joint is that it should close up nice and snug
All sheet stock should have at least 1/16th space between them on all sides. 1/8" is preferable in wet conditions like Michigan.
blue
Anybody know if dat "Home Advantage" stuff Cheapo carries is the same as Advantech?
what do you think ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm guessing it ain't the same but......it looks a heck of a lot better than that flakeboard they sell these days. It smooth sanded on one side, 3/4 thick and tongue and grooved. Thought mebbe it was the "private label" version. Are you at all familiar with this stuff? Oh yeah, not every Cheapo store either.
By the way, what the XMF in the XMFSMITH all about in the email from Tauton?
Curious in Kansas....
lefti... i really don't know.. except that there are a lot of companies trying to cash in on Advantech's success..
if it were easy, there would be a lot of good alternaitves out there.. i know of none
mf is my office email..
xmf is my home email
cool , huh ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you nail rather than screw - use lots of glue: por favor, use much pegamento!!!
My house in Northern Maine just got closed in this week. Everything is Advantec. My only complaint is with the 1/2". We used 3/4 on the deck covered by 1/2. The 1/2 is all over the place on thickness. It ranges from 3/8 to 9/16. The stuff is also delaminating slightly. A chip here and there. If I was not pouring 1 1/2" of light weight cement (RFH) over the whole first floor I would have told the yard to take it back. The 5/8 and 3/4 is rock solid.
The 7/16" or 1/2" is made fo wall sheathing and is not up to the same standards as the decking sheets are. I would not have used 1/2" on flooring for the teasons you name.Everyone - the reason I surmise t6hat Advantech is a more stabnle price is that they have a more limited audience of users in the Huber Cult than in the larger OSB build it cheaper denominatiuon. huber has a defini=ed number of plants producing it also, so the supply/demand ratio is more stable conmpared to OSB at large, where a larger number of prpoduicers open and close plants all the time while the demand side is a large variable while hurricanes and new home strength fluctuates seasonally.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're back. How was the "old sod"?Birth, school, work, death.....................
beautiful!
more on that later. I'll do a thread with photos when I get then sorted and labeled, etc.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Then what would you have used for that application? 75% of the floor will be finished tiled. The design/plan from BC had us using engineered 2X12 on 16 full span. (28') I did not want cracked tiles down the road. You must put tile work on 1 1/4" plus. Right?
Wells Fargo does not park a truck at my back door at night. Kind of a waste to cover BC with cement don't ya think?
I'd of probably used a doubled ply of 5/8" Advantech, glued.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'd of probably used a doubled ply of 5/8" Advantech, glued.
2 sheets of Advantech plus cement board? Gets kinda pricey in a hurry, doesn't it?jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
When using Advantech 3/4 for subfloor, do you install carpet directly over it? Or craft paper and then Advantech? Or do you add underlayment?
Add 1/4" underlayment for vinyl?
Add 1/2" concreteboard for tile? or the two layers of 3/4 that you mentioned earlier then concreteboard? (or does it depend on the joists)
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Edited 11/13/2005 2:31 am by JohnT8
#1.. yes you can..
#2... as long as it's an "underlayment ply"
#3... tile mfrs recommend 1 1/4" thickness for rigidity.. cement board doesn't count, as it has no flexural strengthMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Guy tells me I should not use 3/4 Advantech as subfloor if I plan on using any kind of nailed wood floor for finish. Says the product will not hold nails well (chips or flakes off easily when nailed on angle) and I'll end up with a squeeky floor. Anybody have this kind of problem?
guys smoking something and blowing it your way
Advantech is just superior in every way.. as for it squeeking... no way.
i'm telling you i used Fir T& G plugged & Touch-sanded for 25 years... the only reason i switched to Advantech is because it's better
and it sure as heck holds nails for flooring too
edit :
it's good stuff.. i pay more for it than even fir ply sometime.. i get it back in reliability
sorry , skippy... i forgot to add.... all of the above is of course..... IMHO
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/13/2005 10:46 pm ET by MikeSmith
Didn't get the trigger pulled today. The original schedule was to order the subflooring today, but the engineer didn't make it out Friday. He won't be along until Tues morning. I've got the attached garage setup as the staging area, so that will keep everything nice and dry.
Gave me more time to yank out the old drywall. Nasty stuff, but at least it comes out easy. BIL came by Sunday and pulled nails for FOUR hours! I estimated that on interior walls there are 32-60 nails per stud. I'm just glad they didn't use screws or adhesive.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Check your email please.
Tim
I believe you could carpet right over it unless it was thin glue down type carpet. To be honest, we have only done one flat of wall to wall carpet in my fifteen years here.
Same for vinyl, can't remember when the last time I laid it was, but I usually used 1/2" underlay for everything exceept where leevation of finished floor meeting was a concern
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Man, John... there's some bad advice flying around this thread. Relax.... it's nowhere near as hard to lay it as some are making it out to be.
Best way to lay T&G subfloor always has been and probably always will be with a 2x4 laid against the groove and a sledgehammer to drive the sheet's tongue into the groove behind you. Advantech goes together so slick that one person can lay it if they have a clue what they're doing.
The beauty of Advantech is that you can leave the sheets, unbanded, out in the weather for weeks and they're still flat unless the lift was set down on a boulder or something ridiculous like that.
If some of these guys are struggling with Advantech, they should try laying down some of the 3/4 t&G CDX that's around lately. If you can lay some of that stuff with one guy standing on the seam and another cracking on the sledge... you're doing pretty good. I've seen sheets that took three guys to get them in, no joke.
I'm a framer John. I rarely supply materials, so I rarely supply a warranty on the materials. Sure, Advantech has a 50 year warranty but truth be told... I don't care if it has a 5 minute warranty. Same goes for it's water resistance. If the frame gets rained on and the GC uses plain old OSB and ends up with seams raised 1/2" that need to be sanded down, or delaminating sheets of CDX..... I still don't care.... not my problem. (I do care, but you get my point)
But I recommend Advantech left and right. Why? It's a breeze for me to lay which = $$$. The fact that it is a cost effective alternative and is a superior product in terms of performance and longevity is just an after thought for me.
IMO, if Advantech is available in your area for a competitive price to it's alternatives.... only a fool would choose something else. NOTHING goes down faster or easier. And I've never experienced a subfloor adhesive making the process any more difficult. If anything it greases the sheets to make the installation even faster. I'll bet I've layed a couple acres of the stuff and I'm sure a few here have layed even more than I have and I guarantee they'll agree with everything I've said.
Edited 11/13/2005 9:20 pm ET by dieselpig
I've got no info or experience regarding subfloors and I've never installed any Advantech, but I've roofed on it. It just feels better than the alternatives. Less bounce and the nails seem to grab better. If I were gonna build a house, I'd use it. Most of the contractors I work for use it everywhere they can.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
We first used advantec on a large commercial job. Put down 1200 sheets, replace none. This was late fall/early winter. Got rained on, snowed on, nothing swelled or warped. It was exposed in places for almost 2 months. I was amazed. I had sworn I would never use anything but fir plywood on my floors, now nothing but this. I understand they have a new roof sheathing product too, but we haven't seen it here yet. I'd try it but wonder how much heavier it is. Anyone out there used it yet? Plywood quality seems to just get worse and worse, price shoots up.
Does the Advantech price not jump up and down with the OSB/ply prices?
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
John,I don't understand why, but the price does stay more stable than other sheet goods, at least in NY so far.
Framer just finished my house, all Advantech, subfloor, roof and walls, no windows in yet (plasticed over) managed to get the felt down on the roof when we had a break in the rain. I live in SE CT, its been heavily raining for about 8 days, had to drill some 1" holes in the flooring to let the water drain off the deck, so far it looks fine.
This was the first time the framer had done a house all in Advantech, the only (negative?) comments were that it is heavier than plywood and they had to gap it on the roof and walls. The roof is 6/12 pitch 48' trusses, 24" OC. When he had the roof nailed down he did comment on how strong/stiff it was.
I'm going to take a closer look at it for roof sheathing. I'm sick of the quality of the plywood we're seeing. We are going to be building out some patio homes in spring that we will be utilizing "green" materials in, and I understand it is considered much "greener" than plywood. What thickness did they use on roof, and did it require clips?
Roof sheathing is 5/8, no H clips needed at all, but you could use them just to simplify the "gapping" Here is a pic
Here is that pic in a smaller size before one of the dial-up'ers whines.
View Image
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Edited 10/14/2005 6:02 pm by JohnT8
Thank you JohnT8, that was the 1st time I ever posted a picture, how did you do that???
On the Knots forum (woodworking), they seem to like big pics (large file size), but on Breaktime you've got a lot of folks still using dial-up...ergo a smaller file size will get you more feedback.
I resized it in Photoshop, but there is a free program a lot of Breaktimers use... Irfanview.. or something like that. Take a look in the "Photo Gallery" section, there was a thread about it a while back.
You're basically just taking the large file and shrinking it down to 600-700 pixels wide.jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Some of your sheathing is installed with the printing upside down. Do you have no pride in workmanship?
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;-)
Some of your sheathing is installed with the printing upside down. Do you have no pride in workmanship?
They weren't my pics, I just resized 'em. And yes, I probably would have all the labels pointed in the same direction. Not from pride of workmanship, but rather from obsessive-complusive ;)
And 7 out of 10 carpenters will make fun of us and point out that it works the same no matter which way it points. Not to mention it will shortly be covered up so that no one is even going to see it.
:)jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
You did see my smiley face waaaay at the bottom didn't you... :^)
But if you put the sheets down, wrong side up, how will you know where to drive the nails??
Seriously though, I have tried using other cheaper floor sheathings but always go back to Advantech. At the yards I buy from it's always "Do you want Advantech or the other stuff?" I have only used the floor sheathing though because that is the only place where I have really had exposure related problems. Roofs and walls are papered soon after installation. I have one now that has been wet on and off for a month thanks to the freakin slow plumber... Still looks good.
BTW - this year I have seen the price of Advantech fluctuate somewhat in alignment with OSB prices. The $36 that someone sited above is criminal...
I was sold last summer when a sheet of some other (OSB) flooring somehow made it into a customer's floor. Before we got the roof on, it rained for a week and water just sat there.
The Advantech seemed unaffected while the other piece of OSB got cut out and replaced.
As durable as Advantech is it's not idiot proof. They spilled a lot of water and I guess felt they had a need to get rid of it fast...
Sorry - forgot the pics...
I know not to use OSB under hardwood flooring, what about aventech?
Ever try pulling a nail out of advantech?
John,
I used it on my last two jobs (personal residence and shop building).
It's very heavy to work with, but there was no problem with swelling to speak of.
I didn't have to handle it much, except to clean up the scraps and pay the bills, but as far as the owners viewpoint, I'd do it again.
Bob