Getting estimates for our addition and was contacted my one of the contractors today. Wanted to know if I wanted an estimate for plywood or Advantek flooring.
Anyone provide advice on the estimated price comparison per sheet?
Advantages and disadvantages of these two?
Or an I just being bs-ed by the guy?
Thanks in advance.
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Replies
for subfloor we always used T&G fir ply , 3/4"
now , all we use is Advantech.... it's better
Mike,
As always, thank you for your advice. Having seen your work through all the posts is testiment alone that it must be a good product if you are using it.I'll have to take a ride over to local yard and see some in person.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
I'm always surprised at the number of photos that show up on BT with Advantech as the subfloor. From all over the country. It is more typical that you can't get this group to agree on much of anything, but look at their subfloors in the pics. Not just Mike's.
I live in a backwater of construction technology and only have a couple lumberyards that carry it hereabouts. If I hadn't had the BT folks make me aware of the product, I probably wouldn't have known about it.
jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
LOL
"It is more typical that you can't get this group to agree on much of anything,"Well, Jim is making a halfazt try at being a token rep for ply and osb, but I think even he is giving in to reality!Oh - Hi there Blue;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's one of the best things about this place. The advice is always sound from quality people.
When you see someone, for example Mike S., post pictures of his work from start to finish, you know there is a pride in craftsmanship and quality products.
The knowledge I have received from the people on here has been great. And I continue to learn more and more by asking. Sometimes, it might be a stupid question, but no one has jumped on me for that. LOL!!
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
I use advantek now when I can talk customers / I only charge extra cost for plywood but not any more for installing it. its no harder to install it then T&G plywood (its a little heaver per sheet but big deal its still easy to use and a much better product . go check out the price difference per sheet and make sure hes not jacking price on install.Carpentry and remodeling
Vic Vardamis
Bangor Me
As the OP of this, I guarantee the contractor that gave me the estimate is jacking the price.
Its been the track record with him. Each step of the way, he has tried to talk me in to cheaper stuff, yet still charge me for the quality stuff.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
We only use Advantech-best product available in my opinion
Thank you for the input.Obviously with the speed to which everyone has answered it must be a good product.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
What Mike Smith said - Advantek is far superior. The small amount of extra cost is very much worth it.
Seems like it is definitely the product of choice around here.That means a lot coming from the group here.I can't wait to start posting the pictures of the job.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
The advantech is nice, but around here it comes at quite a bit more $ than OSB. The advantage is primarily for the builder, in that its edges wont swell if wet. If I get swellling, less than an hour per house with a belt sander takes care of it. After the house is dried in I dont see any advantage to the advantech.
You miss the fact that it is much stronger than typical OSB
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You might check to see what the prices are running. Seems like around here the Advantech price tends to be fairly stable while the ply prices are always going up and down. When I bought the subfloor for my current project house, the ply was within a buck or two of the Advantech, so for me it was a no-brainer to give the Advantech a try (because of all its fans here on BT).
This is the first house I've used it on, but it is nice to work with.
jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
The prices listed in the posts below seem to be pretty reasonable and close to one another. Like someone said, the price difference seems almost negligible.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
For me, both Advantec and 3/4T&G ply subfloor are the same price, about 35/sheeet
I would use the Advantec even if it were higher. No delamination whatsoever.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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$35 a sheet - wow!!! I'm pretty sure it's around $22 here.
That was the price on both of my last two jobs. haven't bought any for almost a year now. With the slowdown, the price might be down a bit now.
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Wow!! That's expensive. Just bought 17 sheets last week here in Annapolis. $20.16/sheet.
Runnerguy
you all trying to get Piffin feeling bad?
"One for tomorrow. One just for today." Morrison
I figure that I have some upcharge for delivery to the island
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
$20.96 here in MA as of last week for Advantech.View Image
OK - I just called...advantech here now is 22.50 and the Ply is 28.50!
but they have quit carrying ply T&G since everyone is using the Huber product.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
with my discount, it comes to 21.15, so we are within spitting distance of the same price.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I figure that I have some upcharge for delivery to the island
There aren't any distributors here in Boise so it seems we might as well be in an island as well!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
it cost more to ship it all the way up here in Maine. heating oil and gas cost more here too. but I got 10 cords of tree length firewood for 800.00 last fall 80.00 per cord life is good. I only used 150 gals of heating oil this winter because I was away for 3 weeks blah blah blahCarpentry and remodeling
Vic Vardamis
Bangor Me
The pricing seems to be negligible.From what I have heard from others, the qualities of the Advantech seem to out weigh traditional plywood.I heard that it is good sound qualities.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
As a framer, my experience is that advantek is the best product
by far. No delamination, easier to install. We have not used ply. in several years.
Not to be an idiot, but you mention its easier to instal. Why is that?
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Not to be an idiot, but you mention its easier to instal. Why is that?
I'm not a pro, just mess around in my spare time, but I've gotten 3/4 ply that had a bit of warp to it and was a nuissance to fit with other sheets. I've gotten 3/4" ply t&g that the T&G was a little funky on and was hard to fit together.
I have a general dislike for MDF/particleboard/OSB, so I was skeptical about the Advantech (looks like fancy OSB to me), but 1600 sq ft of it later, I don't really have any problems with it. The sheets are flat, the T&G is consistent. If I'm not careful, I can damage the tongues, but that is true of ply as well. It cuts cleanly (no split out). No delamination.
My use was a renovation, so the floor wasn't exposed to much bad weather, but the pros here say that it will stand up to multiple rains without warping or buckling.jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
Seems to make sense. Engineered is typically more stable and straight. So, logic would not tell me that it would hold true on the Advantech.
Thanks for clearing out the cob webs on the brain.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Your not being BSed. Everyone has an opinion about plwood vs Advantek vs OSB sturdifloor. It's the Ford vs Chevy debate.
My only opinion is that I don't want plywood anymore. I'd rather have OSB or Advantech.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Just concerned about what he was telling me. There is no way this guy is getting the job b/c I have had too many issues with him already.He's been trying to cut as many corners with cheap products as possible, so I wasn't to willing to trust him on this.That's why I turn to the experts here.Thanks
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
my BS radar was going off when I read that he was asking if you wanted which one priced in the estimate. Anyone who knows what he is doing will be pricing the better product, especially when they are so close in price to one another.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Oh believe me this guy has been nothing but BS this entire time. I don't claim to be an expert, but I also know what I want. And with the guidance of the guys on here, I believe I am will be building a quality addition on my house.
When I asked the guy to price out the windows using Anderson windows, he said they were #### and I was wasting my time. I've seen some of his other houses he has built and saw the windows he was using. They are the bottom of the line HD/Lowes windows.
Needless to say, less than impressed and not going to be going with him.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
The problem with guys like him is that they think they need to be the low bidder to get the work. So, they want to use only lower grade products too to help get their bid lower. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Problem with using low grade products and then coming in with the highest estimate so far, does nothing be illustrate to me that he's full of bs, does low grade work, and marks his stuff up for a large profit margin.
I believe everyone is entitled to make a profit and make a living. However, I'm not willing to break my back and get junk in return for a huge mark up.
People are willing to pay more, when they know they are getting quality work and materials in return.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Thats the million dollar question: which one is better? Zillions of guys will say plywood beats all.
Zillions will say Advantech is better. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
One caveat that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that you need to turn the pressure up on your guns, because this stuff is dense.
Also, stretch a lot and get good and warmed up. This stuff is heavy. We change our approach when we sheathe with advantech. Usually one guy does the packing (each guy has his job to make the process go faster), but when we use this product, we try and split it up.
thanks for the heads up.
I'm actually going to stop by one of the yards to see what is there and see if they have any samples.
As far as I'm concerned, the actual research is done. This is the product I'm going with.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
One caveat that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that you need to turn the pressure up on your guns, because this stuff is dense.
Do you use your Hitachi coil guns? Are you shooting them flush or sunk a bit?
Also, stretch a lot and get good and warmed up. This stuff is heavy.
Probably wouldn't help much for your level of production, but for my small project the panel troll worked well on my little single-story ranch. I used the handle to carry it up the few steps into the house and then just rolled it where I could. Then would clip it on the top edge to help lower it into place.
You're about due for a new photo gallery thread. I wouldn't mind seeing how you guys go about banging out a whole floor of subfloor. You said multiple people? One to bring the sheet in, one to tap it into place and nail it? You putting adhesive down on the joists as well?
Dieselpig converted me over to ringshanks and adhesive. SO much quicker than screwing it down (for me) and seems nice and solid.
jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
The way we've done it in the past, is one guy nails, one guy glues (pneumatic glue gun), one guy packs/cuts, if there is a fourth guy he cuts/packs. This keeps everyone busy and going full blast.
Keep in mind too that we have a forklift so we keep the sheathing at waist level and boom out so we are never too far from the sheathing.
We just started framing today after catching up on things here and there. Thought we were going to run out of work, but including this one we've got 4 ahead of us.
I may do a photo thread on this frame. We'll see. It is just two of us framing right now, but we'll probably get help on the roof. We have some 28' green doug fir 2x12 rafters on this one.
Sometimes I think it would be neat if we had our own This Old House camera crew that we could send around to video tape various jobs that we see on BT. Not the 'build an addition in 30 mins' #### that you see on home shows, but an actual program that shows professionals doing their trade.
jt8
So what was that like?It was like coming THIS close to your dreams. And then watch them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don’t think much of it. You know we just don’t recognize the most significant moments of our lives while they’re happening. Back then I thought, “well, there’ll be other days.” I didn’t realize that that was the only day. --FoD
Something along those lines may happen sooner than you think.
Its great to see them put together an entire addition in 30 minutes. It would be great to see if the out takes from New Yankee and TOH could be posted. The one where the guy doesn't measure twice and ends up cutting twice.
The guy that has to make 3 trips to the yard to get something else he is missing.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Tim,
What brand of pneumatic gun do you use? I usually buy quart tubes of PL premium. Do you think it would be strong enough to push the Premium and does it consume alot of air?
Thanks for the info
Bruce
Here it is http://www.toolbarn.com/product/cox/61002/ . It isn't cheap, but its worth it.
It doesn't consume much air. And I think it'd work fine for PL
Thanks
I must be in the minority, but there is a nice firm wood feeling to 1-1/8" doug fir T&G that the 3/4" products don't have.
The other nice thing about plywood is there are no scraps in the dumpster. Every scrap larger than a cell phone gets used for something. How many dumpsters have we all filled with osb.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Well, I'm in your camp, but I think we are still getting good plywood out here.I did a kit log home a few years ago that came from PA. and the subfloor T & G plywood that came with the kit was the worst stuff I've ever seen.If all structural plywood is like that in the East, I'd probably go to an OSB product, too.
It depends on what mill makes the ply we get--some of it is #### with terrible quality control and some of it looks as good as sanded fir AC. The better stuff we'll set aside for finish things and the worst gets used for makeshift concrete forms or backing.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I don't know. Went to the web site for the Advantech and it seems like really good stuff.Not sure of the Zip product that they have now, but the fact that it can be used in all applications in framing, it makes it pretty good.Definitely good quality attributes on the site about the product.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
It lays flat, therefore when you drop and beat it into place, no warps
like real ply.
Guys, I haven't seen 5/4 ply.. 3/4 tops. Whats the advantage?
very firm floor, good base for tile ( under backer board ). floor sheeting and subfloor all in one.
james
Thanks. I'll have the estimates based upon using the Advantech for the subfloors.
Their site says it can also be used for sheething and roofs. I assume, since it can be used as a plywood substitute for flooring, the structural integrity is also the same for the sheething.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
"Definitely good quality attributes on the site about the product."I was at a local trade show recently.Most of the manufacturers reps had a worried scowl, furrowed brow, etc, because of complaints they were fielding, or because of the economic slowdown.The Huber rep was all smiles and magnificence. I commented on that to him, and he said, it is so nice to work for a company where the product sells itself!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's great to know. I thought that with the slow down in the economy and the current housing market the contractors in my area would be hungry for work. Try getting one on the phone to return a call is difficult to say the least.
I noticed you said, "on the island" a couple of posts back. What island?
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
I'm up in the midcoast region of Maine in Penobscot bay."I assume, since it can be used as a plywood substitute for flooring, the structural integrity is also the same for the sheething."They have products formulated for each application. as for structural, not long ago, I used some regular OSB for a shed, first time in ages. I was amazed at how floppy, like a wet noodle, it seemed after having used the Huber products for years.As far as structural sheathing goes, if you have a way to keep things totally dry from time of delivery to time the siding goes on, OSB is probably OK for shear sheathing, but never on a roof, and if there is a chance of it getting wetted, count on the edges swelling.But Advantec is put togehter with higher quality resinbs and greater pressure.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Did a motorcycle run up the Freeport a couple of summers ago with some buddies. Loved it up there. Tried to talk the wife in to relocating to Maine or NH, but as soon as it was pointed out to her that her M-in-L would visit for a week rather than an afternoon, that deal was killed. LOL!!.
Yeah, I went to the Wierhouse (spelled wrong) website last night and read about it. Pretty good site. http://www.ilevel.com good source of information. They have the wall sheathing advantech w/and w/o zip system. Looked pretty cool. I'll have to see if anyone has any experience with the wall sheething before having that added.
Just not willing to put traditional waffer board up on the walls.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Well, for accuracy, I don't think anybody makes waferboard any more. That was the first incarnation back in the seventies. 1/2" would swell to 7/8" when wet.Then came the next genration, the Oriented Strand Board, OSB, that used some better glue and gave better axis of strength because of grain orientation, but it still swells on edges when wetted, and is no where as strong or dense as Advantec.When subnmerged, the Advantec wall sheathing can still swell slightly on cut edges, but the floor stuff never absorbs a drop of water that I have ever seen. That is one of the reasons the T&G is easier to use. The tongue does not swell so it slips together nice. T&G ply will swell just from ambient moisture in the air, But the Advantec I have seen has weathered multiple rians or even being under ice 1.5" thick for several weeks and then alternating thaws, with no damage to it.We learned to dril 1" holes here and there to let it drain better
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And while I usually tell folks not to burn ply/osb/etc in their wood stoves, I will admit to using little bits of Advantech... from time to time... as kindling. jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
Is it worth it for that small bit of kindling? Igniting those glues?
I mean even I don't and wouldn't burn osb or PT in a woodstove for any reason short of a new chapter in The Diary of Anne Frank.
be save your flue
Edited 4/4/2008 11:04 pm ET by rez
These scraps are the size of a cigarette pack or less. Like when I was using the hole saw to cut plumbing holes for 1.5 & 2" PVC. Had a bunch or rounds left over. Another was a strip I'd cut off a sheet. Maybe 1/4" thick. Not putting big chunks in.
jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
I'm a product of the 70's what can I say. LOL!!
Well, I'm definitely going to go with the advantech now at least for the flooring. Something about traditional osb just doesn't do it for me.
There are way to many positives not to.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Have you trid there sheathing product yet?
Not the newest Zip system, but I use their wall and roof sheathing all the time.
When talking with the Huber rep, my understanding of the newest system - where you seal the joints with a tape and do not need to use housewrap, is that the Zip stuff is slightly more permeable, so as to allow some vapour transmission to escape while still keeping the wind driven rain from getting in.In other words, the regular stuff is denser and more water tight by a small percentage. Not sure if I have my head wrapped around that one yet, so I could be wrong.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I used the ZipWall and ZipRoof system on a house I framed this past winter. The short version is..... labor intensive with all that taping. But it's nice to be dried in before you're actually dried in, if you know what I mean. If you're bidding a frame with it, don't even think of it as anything close to a wash with a regular sheathing job.
Justin did a short article on the Zip system in last month's Fine Homebuilding. I heard there's a quote in there by a certain framer who hangs around here a bit too much. ;)
View Image
Edited 4/4/2008 5:59 pm ET by dieselpig
Hard to clean seams enough to get a good seal?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The tape was actually pretty easy to work with and we didn't have many problems getting a good seal. At around 20 degrees the tape did start to get a little finicky though. The only real issue is that it simply took a lot of time to lay all that tape. Much more than I anticipated really. Usually sheeting the roof is a two man job with us (one up nailing and one cutting and passing). But I had to have a third guy up there the whole time and he was struggling to keep up with the guy nailing.
The walls weren't bad when they were laying on the deck but a good deal of it still had to be done after the walls were up......around corner tie-ins, short walls, the 1st floor to 2nd floor overlap course, inside and outside corners, etc. Not such a big deal on the first floor, but a little more of an issue on the second floor. It wasn't hard. And both the sheathing and tape did what they were supposed to do.... it just took a long time.
And the sheathing is a little rough on blades too. Not a huge deal, but it did shorten the life of the blades enough to notice.View Image
I like advantec. One caveat, it doesn't hold a nail as well as ply wood. Can be an issue when bracing walls, and for hardwood floor installs.
As luck would have it, my engineer gave us a good reason to use Advantek on our current project with his floor specs. As you know it's the middle of the rainy season out west.
To support latteral wall loads and avoid a ton of floor joist blocking we'll be using two layers of 3/4" decking. Doesn't that sound like a great moisture trap? It made the decision easy to go with it.
I'm looking forward to using it.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Sounds like a mold nightmare.I'd probably put the regular OSB down on the first layer. Then I'd frame the roof. Then I'd put down the advantech top layer. Then the partitions. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I must be in the minority, but there is a nice firm wood feeling to 1-1/8" doug fir T&G that the 3/4" products don't have.
I'd have to check with the lumberyards to make sure, but I don't think I've seen thicker than 1" in several years hereabouts. Is it a regional product?
jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
Edited 4/4/2008 10:40 am by JohnT8
but I don't think I've seen thicker than 1"
Well, 1-1/8" ply really is closer to 1-1/16", and there's a chance the T&G stuff is less common, but we can get 1-1/8" OSB or ply, but yards often just carry the OSB.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
the place I worked at in Chicago used to sell 1 1/8" subfloor. But it didn't move very well, so I think they quit carrying it. I've never run into it anywhere else.
Please don't ask me what the score is, I'm not even sure what the game is. [Ashleigh Brilliant]
As soon as I read the words 1-1/8" thick, and Advantech in the same sentence I had a back spasm. :)
That's on e of the only two complaints that I have is that it's heavy, but not even the weight of it is the issue so much as the smoothness=grip difficulty.
The other is that when leaning anything up from 1st floor to 2nd you have to either nail a cleat down on the floo, or stand whatever it is durn near straight up and down so the botttom doesn't slide out. Something for the op to consider if he hasn't used it before.....
Other than that it's great stuff, no problems with swelling at all. I'm actually at a point where I'm considering using it for rim joist on the next engineered floor I frame, due to the ridiculous swelling I keep getting with manufactured rim...Why can't they use the same glue technology to keep a ###ing piece of rim joist 1" thick when getting wet a few times.....?
Bing
Advantech comes in 3/4, 7/8 and 1 1/8. The T&G slips together very easily and as you mentioned very little waste as the scraps make great blocking, stair treads etc.
All of our plywood around here is SYP and it warps and twist when the as soon it the sun shines on it and delaminates as soon as it gets wet. I have had chunks of Advantech sitting in puddles and buckets for over a year and very limited swelling and no evidence of loss of strength.
Bruce
Lots of opinions.
If one or the other, I would use Avantec also due to it not delaminating and does not swell.
If you will be under roof quickly and during low rain period, I would use 3/4" osb and not the upgraded products if $$ is critical.
You can grind all the seams in a 2000 sf house in about 2 hours with a 100 dollar 7" grinder if it gets wet and seams swell just prior to drywall or just prior to finish flooring if you like.
thats what I do currently as everyone is watching their money right now.