I just finished an 1100 sq. ft deck that we laid with ipe, I thought I would share my experience working this material. I did some research before taking this project on and it seemed that every person I spoke to had a different opinion on how handle this material.
We attached the ipe by screwing down through boards into the joists. The vendor recommended that we use “Woodpecker” brand stainless steel screws. A box of about 1100 costs about $250.00. They came with no instructions. We pre-drilled each hole, and they stripped, snapped, and refused to hold in the joist. I returned the two boxes we purchased and grabbed the composite deck screws that were in stock. I purchased the screws with a “brown” head, which looked fine until we stained the wood. I should have purchased the “dark redwood” color. Composite deck screws are half the price, but they warn that they will leave a dark circle in the wood around the screw head. The size of the hole that you drill is very important, if it is too small you have problems getting the screw in. Figure two to three times the cost of a composite deck installation. I would never do a screw down installation again, it is a brutal proposition.
You can purchase ipe on-line that has a slot routed into the side that allows you to use a hidden fastener. I have heard that with expansion and contraction the boards become loose and rattle- I do not know if this is true. The price per board is slightly more, but the cost-saving in installation is worth it. One screw per joist, not two, and you don’t have to drill through the board.
You also have to seal each cut with an end sealer, I mean the nonsense never ends with this material.
I cleaned the deck with Cabot’s detergent deck cleaner, waited a few days and then stained it. Staining and sealing is another phase of the project where everyone has a different opinion. We used Sikken Dek finish, which costs $80.00 a gallon and covers about 350 square feet. We wanted to achieve the look of the wood when it got wet-good luck. We used the “Natural” stain, in the brochure the look was almost like pine. On Ipe the color is a very, very dark wood, the finish is dull, and the brown headed srews stick out. This is the best part, you put the stain/sealer on, wait a few minutes, then get down your hands and knees and wipe off the excess. Make sure you have a good quality respirator, and plastic gloves. This should be done at least once every two years.
I just saw an ipe deck that had been installed about a year ago, and it had been stained and sealed. I looked great for the first few months, but when I saw it the other day it looked totally thrashed.
I had recommended this material to the client because I had always liked the look, but I will not do so in the future. The Ipe suppliers need to get their act together as far as standardizing the installation, staining/sealing, and long term care of this material.
Composite deck materials, like Trex are so much easier to work with, they may not be as attractive, but the extreme extra hassle of the Ipe is just not worth it.
Replies
Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I have never stained ipe, so can add nothing there.
What size were the Woodpecker screws you used? I have used #10 by 2.5" stainless flathead screws (mine were made by Swan Secure) to hold 3/4" ipe and they worked perfectly. It is CRITICAL with ipe to drill a clearance hole through the decking that permits a screw to just drop through with no interference whatsoever. This is going to be 3/16" or more with a #10 screw. Any pilot hole in the joist will be much smaller, of course. A cordless drill on slow, or with the clutch set, will drive the screws safely.
I did not seal the ends of my decking, and it is perfect after 8 years in the weather, no checking, and no finish at all. Safe for bare feet, too.
Bill
I have used the swansecure screws with good result too. But never had need to make the drill hole that much oversized. I want the screw to be in contact with the woodeight years is not a great frame of reference for a lifetime product like IPE` to measure how well it is doing without endsealer, IMO.
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I hope some others can share some of their experience with IPE. I have never used it, but it has become the decking material of choice lately. I had never even heard of it until about a year ago, and now it seems that every deck is being done with it. I really like the look of the natural wood, what would others recomend as a stain to maintain it? Not a fan of leaving it to grey.
Also, where does this wood come from? Its not out of a Brazillion rain forest, is it?
Just wondering
I too hope the shared experiences keep coming. I've been recommending Ipe in some circumstances, based on what I've seen and largely what I've read. So far, every single carpenter has done something akin to making the sign of the cross and shaking their head, so I have little actual experience with built stuff. I try not to forget my nailbanging days when designing & specifying projects, but on this particular material I look forward to relying on folks like y'all until I can actually convince someone to use it.
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I built my own Ipe deck. Used the plastic biscuit shaped fasteners with stainless screws. The worst part was the cutting of the slots. Nasty dust even with a vac pickup. The installation was straightforward though slow. (but hey, I'm not a very fast carpenter) I left the deck unfinished... no stain, no finish, no hassle. It has turned a nice grey. It's been four or five years now and is still in great shape. I can walk barefoot with no problems and I have winter tender feet. I wouldn't allow trex decking anywhere near my house.
You can search the archives here for several discussions about it and photos as well.my dinner is ready, so I'll be back later...
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Does anyone have any pictures of IPE as it has weathered to a silver/grey?
I think this could be a selling point about IPE (not necessary to finish), but people are curious to see how it will look.
The stairs in this picture are about a year old, and the curved boardwalk is a few months old. Needs another year to look nice and silver. Unfortunately the owners decided to try some cheap sealer, and now it looks awful.
View Image
Mike,
Thanks for posting the pic.
Is the light and dark color variation on the deck due to the stain the owner used or is there that much variation within the IPE itself?
There is some variation with Ipe but not that much. You might have a light streak here or there but that is rare.I also never understand why people complain about cutting it. With a miter saw and a decent carbide blade it is fine. The density requires the cut to be slower but it cuts fine. I also agree with the dust complaint. That dust is so fine, like powder and nasty to breath in. But the finshed result is worth the extra work.
Is the light and dark color variation on the deck due to the stain the owner used or is there that much variation within the IPE itself?
I believe the picture was taken on a dewey morning, so some of the color variation is from moisture. It doesn't jump out at you in person the way it does in the picture. You can also see where people have walked up and down the stairs a lot with sandy feet.
There is some difference in color between new dry boards though. Also in density--some are really really heavy, and some are just really heavy.
Mike,
Nice looking work. I don't think Ipe has been used long enough in the US to determine length of service. Concealed fasteners are the only way to go.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Here's mine. 6" Ipe, no slots. The project is still in progress & at the trim stage now, and am just now getting around to the steps, but the deck has been down since last summer and it has held up well. ACQ framing, flashed, fastened from the bottom with DeckMaster. Sh*tload of screws, but not horrible, and better than pre-drilling everything, IMHO. Not real cheap -- $30 or so per box. I'd use this every time over Trex.
19: The Deckmaster going on.20: Laying Ipe on diagonal21: More Laying Ipe26: Ipe decking down58: Under Roof73: This is the only recent shot I have. Can't see much of the Ipe, but it's only faded a bit and is still flat & splinter-free. (My lovely assistant is beginning the paint job in the Hardi. I've started laying out for a wood-fired oven to compliment the pulled pork on the grill in No. 19. Can't wait!)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Really looks great!
Couple of questions,
Is it difficult to cut?
When screwing from underneath, you don't have to pre-drill?
Thanks and good decking to you!
You should always pre-drill, regardless of which direction. It cuts pretty well, but there is some splintering, and it does dull the blade faster than softwoods.
"Is it difficult to cut?"
I cut it on a chop saw with a cheapie DeWalt carbide blade & toss the blade at the end of the job. Works fine. Nasty dust, though.
"When screwing from underneath, you don't have to pre-drill?"
Nope. Well, not usually. Only when the screw will be within 3" or 4" from an end. They'll tend to split the wood unless you predrill the locations near ends. The screws supplied with Deckmaster are small so: 1) you need to use about a million of them, which they supply in the kit, and 2) you don't need to predrill.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thanks for the responces, guys!
I think i'm ready
Just gonna' remember to have a kid around to carry the stuff!
This deck isn't Ipe, but Massaranduba (sometimes called Brazilian Redwood). It has similar physical properties (hardness, strength, etc.) and coloring to Ipe (a little redder though). I used Deckmaster, and like Mike says, no predrilling was needed underneath except for ends. I sometimes drilled near the side edges as well, but other times didn't and never had any splitting there.In the picture, you can see the variation in color. All is raw wood, no stain or sealer. All the wood you see is Massaranduba, except for the 4 vertical posts, which are con-heart/con-common Redwood. The stair and landing railing wood is newly installed in this picture (April 07), and the rest has about 2 years in the western-exposure Colorado sun. Eric
I have put down thousands of feet of ipe over the past few years. We always use the eb-ty system of biscuits and stainless screws, anchorseal for the end cuts and the finishh is up to the homeowner. Most let it silver out and it holds up fine. Only downside of the eb-ty's is once in a while if we go back to a job, there may be a few creaks here and there. The biggest drawback of ipe is it is brutaly tough on tools and installer. The sawdust is hard on your eyes, nose and skin, so cover up. The colors of sawdust that come out of this wood are crazy. Anywhere from re to anti-freeze green. We always get our ipe from liberty cedar in RI, they stock it along with all the accesories, and all the other sizes such as 4x4, 2x, and railing parts. Now there is a new material out similar to ipe, but a little lighter. Arapa Gold is the name
jes,
do you use Vycor on the top of the deck joists, or does the IPE rest directly on the joist? I wonder if that would make any difference with the creaking?
I have an upcoming project using 5/4 IPE pregrooved and a concealed clip fastener. I am a little concerned about the possibitity of creaking.
No vycor, you are supposed to use construction adhesive on each joist with the eb-ty's, but it doesn't really stick to P.T all that well.
Have you tried Pl Premium?
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Most (all?) of it in the US comes from Brazil.I'm sure it's a great wood for decking. I'd just feel odd contributing to the Rainforest problems just to have a deck. I think I'd rather have some local pine and spend a bit more effort maintaining it.
darrel,
I was shown information when I first used ipe ( on a certified green building) that it was sustainably harvested.
That may not be true of all ipe , but it was for the stuff I used.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I would like to believe it's sustainably harvested, but from what I've read, there's really no guarantee that it really is at this point.A lof of the harvest isn't managed well, and those in charge are easily bribed within the Brazillian government.In addition, I've seen selective harvesting in the Rain forest, where they only take out certain trees. I think they consider this sustainable, but it actually destroys the canopy, and, ultimately, does a LOT of damage to the forest.I'm not knocking those that use ipe (and applaud those that make sure it's from properly managed harvests) but, for now, I just personally feel better purchasing non-rain forest woods for things like a deck.
IPE` is one of those woods that was totally being destroyed a generation ago in slash and burn subsistence agriculture where every 2-3 years the tribe would burn another section of rain forest to plant crops. Then when the nutrient leached away, they moved and burnt another section.these trees are now responsibly harvested and sold instead, providing jobs in the new world marketplace and increasing the standard of living for the people living in that rainforest. The fact that an IPE deck is likely to last at least twice as long as a pine deck is a more responsible decision also.
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"The fact that an IPE deck is likely to last at least twice as long as a pine deck is a more responsible decision also."From what I understand, Ipe species are NOT fast growing. As such, I imagine that you can easily get twice the lumber from faster growing pine in the time it takes to replenish the ipe.Now, someone please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong!
Well, if you're looking only at quantity, you might be somewhat right. When you look at this kind of thing, you have to consider more than just quantity and turnover.
If you do use a fast-growing species with the expectation that it will need to be replaced in the near-term, think about the fuel, energy and labor needed to get that product to you twice as opposed to just once with a better material, plus the cost of disposing the original material and the space in the landfill it will occupy. What have you saved? Or more importantly, what has the decision to use cheap materials really cost you (or your client) in the long term?
You are absolutely correct. The issue is that there are a LOT of variables that need to be put into the equation to figure out the impact on the earth:Location from the materials to you.
Energy to process materials.
Energy to transport.
Time to replenish.
Etc.Admittedly, this is purely a guess, but it seems to me that locally grown pine is a) closer b) faster to replenish and c) grown and harvested in a much less damaging way (high density, easy access, etc.)In the long run, though, I just (personally) don't like touching the rain forests.
One supplier who makes the claim of sustainability: http://www.ipe-wood.com/faq.html And one who appears to think certification is overrated: http://www.ipedepot.com/enviromental.htm EDIT: I just re-read the second link and now am confused, but it does appear they also support managed tree cutting. Confusing read though. "Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...SenecaEdited 6/7/2007 3:56 pm by dovetail97128
Edited 6/7/2007 5:01 pm by dovetail97128
dovetail,
i'd be interested in seeing some objective literature as opposed to info from someone trying to sell something.
i am going to install whatever the HO wants reguardless. i will not recommend something that i believe to be excessively harmful to the enviornment but i will install it.
is it our job as carpenters to ensure that our clients don't buy products that sustain growth, and are enviornmentally friendly?
just something to think about.
Arne
arnemckinley,
Good point .
I Don't know where one would find unbiased information about the ipe harvesting.
The point about what customer chooses is also valid , If it upsets me enough I would probably walk from the job, but that would have to be an extreme case."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Here's some pretty good info from a person living down in the Amazon who exports tropical hardwoods. Maybe not that unbiased, but good info anyway. Makes me feel a little better using ipe.http://www.woodsshop.com
Well, just my luck!
I find a nice material and its from a rainforest! I thought all that stuff was to expensive for us regular folk. Some have posted that its sustainable, but I think i'll check a bit on my own.
... I'd just feel odd contributing to the Rainforest problems just to have a deck ...
_________________From some of what I've read, most of the rainforest problems come from ranchers, not loggers, who move into an area, clearcut and burn, then plant crops for a couple of seasons until the minimal nutrients in the soil give out.Sort of like tobacco farming here a couple of hundred years ago.
Leon
I will try to remember today to shoot some photos of it. I will be working at a place where we laid a deck about 2-1/2 years ago and it has weathered to a beautiful silver with some jeweling shining thru
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Great, look forward to it.
And, is IPE responsibly harvested? I too have reservations about contributing to the depletion of the rainforest. You've made a good case in your previous post, so, would it be too much to ask for your PERSONAL garentee? I just need to have a clear conscience. Thanks in advance for your re-assurance.
The eternal PITA
Karp
I use Cabot Australian Timber Oil in a 50/50 mix of mahogany flame and amberwood. It darkens ipe to approx. the color when wet. Needs to be re-applied every year or two here in TX. Your mileage may vary.We put it on with a paint pad on a stick, takes no time at all. Go easy though, it doesn't penetrate that well, and will puddle and never dry, kinda like Penofin.
"hope some others can share some of their experience with IPE. I have never used it, but it has become the decking material of choice lately. I had never even heard of it until about a year ago"
Karp,
I've built one, and it was one with hidden fasteners and SS screws. took over a month. Looked great for the first year till the neighbor kept borrowing my pressure washer every month and re-applying preservative to it.
BTW pics of it are in the archives, he is now divorced and living in Colorado, and his wife is in the processes of moving to Florida with her new boyfriend
That worked out well.
WSJ
Thanks for the response
After following this thread, I'll be sure to look closely at the time I allow for working with this material!
I don't think it is the manufacturers who need to get their act together. You simply need to learn how to use the material and what to expect from it.
Every material a carpenter uses is different.
one of the primary requirements for being a good craftsman is patience.
How in the world do you categorize sealing end cuts in exterior wood a bit of "nonsense"? I have been sealing end cuts in exterior wood for nearly thirty years. It is a good and common practice, and is especially more important with a material on a horizontal deck where more water will set.
screws - you should have checked in here first. A lot of use recommend the GRK SS trim head screws for IPE`. Yes, they need to be pre-drilled. That is part of the trade-off with using such a good hard rot-resistant wood like IPE`. Some folks like the hidden fasteners too, but they are likewise not without their own set of problems that will require you to have patience.
Why compare to trex. They are totally different products! I don't think you would be happy with the way Trex takes a stain either.
IPE` is hard so stain does not penetrate and take well. Expecting it to react like pine is not a reasonable assumption. You criticize somebodies deck after two years. I rarely see a stained deck two years old that looks great. a wood deck needs treatment every year or two. That is a simple fact of life.
And I would NEVER use a coloured fastener with a deck to be stained without testing the result on a sample first.
I think you started out with some unreasonable expectations, based in part on a failure to adequately research the product before using it, so you found yourself disenchanted.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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Predrill larger than screw shank, SS trim head screws, plug the holes with ipe plugs and Titebond 3, no stain, no sealer. I have seen it done with the eb-ty system and it seems to work fine as well.
Ipe is a b**** to work with. Period. But it's worth it in the end.
Hey all,
I had the pleasure of using ipe once on a deck that was cantelevered out from a chimney 25 feet off the gound. three beams - 4 feet on center. deck is 8' x 8' plus an interior portion as well 8 x 12. access to the deck is thru the masonry chimney. pretty neat. I face scewerd it with swan secure stainless. it took time to predrill and counter sink each hole but I like the look. the stuff is hard and heavy and by no means is it a walk in the park. drilling the posts for lags was probably the hardest thing. but the deck holds up well. My customer who I did this for is not one for exterior maintenance. the entire outside has not seen any finishes since it was put up (cedar siding, soffits, fascia, lower decks cedar as well) it is a tremendous house that is hurting for attention. a real shame. but the ipe is the only thing that still lookes good. weathers niscely to a grey but has't splinter, checked, or twisted. I'm a fan of it but just know to charge more for the labor thatn traditional. I think when we (as contactors) loose money on a product because the labor was more than anticipated it translates into not liking the product which is unfair to the product itself. call your experiences with ipe just that and enjoy the next job because you will be that much more prepared. By the way, someone mentioned the deck master fastening sytem, I think I would try that next time. I've used it before with cedar and like it a lot. I think the screws could benefit from a torx (star) drive head IMO. night all
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini