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Boo-Hiss! Gabe,
Public buildings cost a lot because of prevailing wage rates that are typically required, more durable materials that are often used, more stringent code requirements and inspections, and because most of the public won’t settle for a pole barn or other cheap, less durable thrown-up structure.
Mike,
My best advice is to be realistic about what 3.9 million will buy you. Make sure your architect tries to accomodate any lighting, sound and stage equipment that may be needed; request that he bring in specialists & consultants for these if he’s not familiar with certain things. You, as the owner, should consider hiring a non-biased, third party consultant to help guide you through the design and bidding process. Choose a practical and functional building over a beautiful, elaborate enclosure that puts a bunch of time and money into facades and materials.
Most important, trust your architect; if he or she are good at what they do, are qualified to be your architect, they should have your school’s and community’s best interest in hand. Large projects rarely make everybody completely happy, though they tend to provide for the needs and function of most persons involved.
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Boo-Hiss! Gabe,
Public buildings cost a lot because of prevailing wage rates that are typically required, more durable materials that are often used, more stringent code requirements and inspections, and because most of the public won't settle for a pole barn or other cheap, less durable thrown-up structure.
Mike,
My best advice is to be realistic about what 3.9 million will buy you. Make sure your architect tries to accomodate any lighting, sound and stage equipment that may be needed; request that he bring in specialists & consultants for these if he's not familiar with certain things. You, as the owner, should consider hiring a non-biased, third party consultant to help guide you through the design and bidding process. Choose a practical and functional building over a beautiful, elaborate enclosure that puts a bunch of time and money into facades and materials.
Most important, trust your architect; if he or she are good at what they do, are qualified to be your architect, they should have your school's and community's best interest in hand. Large projects rarely make everybody completely happy, though they tend to provide for the needs and function of most persons involved.
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Sorry Chad but your off the mark.
Our firm handled over 38 million dollars worth of investigations into various construction litigations so I think I know the cause.
Let's play detective.
First: The original request was from a teacher, not an owner.
Second: The request didn't seem legitimate (joy of joys)
Third: The value of the project seemed to have already been decided. 3.9 million dollars. This means that the design concept is completed as is the projected budget based on this completed design.
Fourth: The request for information from a chat room regarding the fear that disaster may be looming normally is a clear indication that the formula for disaster is already in the making.
Fifth: I have never investigated or conducted any technical audits on a single project where the cause of over costs was as a result of over building or codes.
How far off the mark do you really think my comments are?
Thanks for the exchange,
Gabe Martel GSC (Gold Seal Certification in Construction Management)
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This does not have jack diddly to do with that post...
Gabe:
What is the address of your business??
Does GSC have a website??
David Nickelson
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Mike - finally someone asks a question which I can answer AND claim some legitimate expertise. (Is this a setup?) I'm a theatre consultant working for architects and owners planning theatres (and a few churches and related assembly building type.) Your architect must have a theatre consultant and an acoustical consultant on the design team. It will make all the difference in the world in most cases - its just very seldom an architect can be an expert and up on the issues of theatre design. Unfortunately, public agencies somtimes limit architects to very low fees with no allowance for the building type or complexity.
I can't help much in a post. You can look at my companies web site - http://www.schulershook.com - and if you email me or put me in contact with your architect, I can tell you of other theatre and acoustic consultants in your region. (I'm in the Chicago area).
If you have specific questions, post. But the planning starts at arriving at a reasonable program and conservative estimates before one line is ever drawn. And - odd as it may seem - these buildings are designed from section first and then plan. And generally square shapes are better and fan shapes are death. And ADA has added a lot of challenges - so the elevator is one of the first pieces (try connecting an orchestra pit and a control room with the same elevator!) of the plan.
Well - I could go on for days. Its a fun project if it's well planned. But there's a lot of details to work through. Good luck!
*Bill, Thanks for your input. Much of the planning has been done and I am being asked quality questions weekly by the architects on the issues that are arising. I simply wondered if anyone had come across an oddball nightmare that wasn't easily perceived before construction started. I'm really impressed by the architects, they've consulated acousticians and have designed a number of other facilities in our area. I've been able to get most of my wish list( a orchestra pit was not among them, Darn it) and I'm looking forward to a great space in the future. I appreciate your reply.
*Greetings DavidWe work out of Ottawa, Ontario CanadaHowever, I have to travel most of the country.GSC is a professional designation given to identify construction superintendents and project managers who have met all of the requirements of the Canadian Construction Association. It is the highest award available in Canada at this time. It has taken us nearly 20 years of lobying to get recognition for our profession and we're working to improve on it.I don't know if the CCA has Gold Seal info on the web but I will check it out later.Hope this is the information you were looking for,Gabe Martel GSCProject ManagerE-mail [email protected]
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Dear Mike
Like Bill Conner, above, I am surprised and pleased to find a posting I may be able to help out on. I do residential carpentry now, but spent the eight previous years building, installing, rigging and maintaining theatrical sets in the kind of facility you are building now. I can't help you too much with the big picture-sounds like that is set already-but I can let you know about the kinds of features on my wish list. These are all things I have either seen added later or sorely missed in the thirty or so theatres/performance spaces I have worked in:
Regular old Edison-plug, AC power--with all the computer-dimmed electricity flowing around a stage, old fashioned places to plug in tools, clip lights, radios, fans, etc. are often forgotten about. It is always possible to get the power, of course, but the hassle of finding the house electrician and the and the clutter/hazard of all those extra patch cords could be easily eliminated with extra wall and floor plugs.
Blue "running lights"--these are always strung or clipped up back stage for
b every
performance so the crew and performers can see without distracting the audience with white light. There is no reason these should not be permanent fixtures on their own dimmer.
The topic of electric power is outside my expertise, but I can tell you this, I have worked in many buildings where the sound technicians spent thousands of fruitless hours in the vain quest for a "humm-free" sound system.
i It is very, very important that power coming into your building is well-grounded.
I have been in brand new, multi-million dollar buildings that may never have perfect sound because of "bad power". Like I said, this is out of my area of expertise, but with lights, sound and even rigging being computer controlled these days, the Quality of the electricity you get is as important as it's uninterrupted flow. Just be sure your architect has thought about how sound and power will live together in your building. With those two, good fences make good neighboors.
Hanging points--There is no such thing as too many points to hang something from or tie something to. Some 'after market' additions I've seen in almost every space I've been in are eye bolts anchored into the left and right walls. While useful in a pinch, they are not adjustable and are only secure if they were installed correctly, an open question in a multi-use facility where the expertise runs from student through enthusiastic amatuer up to experienced-but-uncaring road technician on a tour stop. A few permanent, well anchored I or T beams running vertically would eliminate this problem. There is plenty of rated beam hardware available.
You can never have too many ClearCom stations, as only 80% will work at any given time anyway.
If there is any sort of shop built into your new building or in an adjacent building, running lines for compressed air to multiple stations around the performance space allows for the easy use of a wide range of air tools when the inevitable repairs, changes and additions happen. This is an addition I have seen in every building where it is applicable. It always pays for itself but is always an ugly afterthought, how nice it would be to see a well designed built-in system.
There is almost never a slop sink right off the performance space. There is
b never
a performance that doesn't need one. The stage will be damp-mopped for dust before every performance of every kind. Without a nearby sink, one corner of your brand new shiny theatre will be permanently transformed into "the place where the mop bucket goes." A slop sink nearby will also help facilitate the large amount of painting and touch up work everyone swears will "Never occur on our new stage." By the way this is also a good place for the extra large first aid kit you will need if your students are anything like the Boston University students I once shared shop space with.
Finally, there is almost no instance in a performance space where stairs are better than a ramp. There is no such thing in such a facility as a door that will never get a large, heavy object moved through it. Eventually, all small runs of stairs in performance spaces are married to custom ramp sections made to fit over each run. These 'insta-ramp' inserts, when not in use, fill up valuable storage space-which you will never have enough of. Best to start with ramps, or have the builder make you those from-stairs-to-ramp inserts right from the get go.
Hope I haven't bored you to tears, and like I said , these are just things that have caused me to shake my head and curse over the years. I suppose the stage managers, electricians, painters and house managers would all have their own lists too. I would be happy to put you in touch with long-time members of those professions, if you like, and feel free to email me at [email protected] if I can be of any further help. Good Luck. DW
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Don,
Thanks so much for the info. We are scheduled to have
a slop sink, lots of clear com stations, and yes I
too will NEVER AGAIN allow anyone to paint on the
stage. Hope I can hold to that. The 2 things I hadn't
thought of were the grounding issue which we now have
to deal with and common electric outlets for
backstage necessaries. I'll pass those on to the
architects. I just talked to them about doors needing
to be bigger. And we have no stairs from scene shop
to stage. I'm not sure will ever need a big
compressor with lots of runs. Kids and Pneumatics
nailers scare the socks off me!!!! The I or T beam
idea on the side sounds interesting as well.
Fortunately I've begun a good relationship with the
Architects and Principal and they are very
supportive.
Our scene shop will be directly behind the stage
connected by a 16' wide X 14' tall roll up door. as
well as having 8 foots doors at each end. The Stage
will have a 40' proscenium arch with 15' wings and a
small bump out in front. The scene shop/storage area
will run the width of th stage and I'll also have an
outside building area with a shed roof and electric
and water available, so I can build outside when the
shop is full of stuff.
The district wouldn't go for an orchestra pit so for
musicals the orchestra will be behind a cyc in the
scene shop at the large roll up door. We'll have
access to televison hookups there and a permanently
installed video camera in the ceiling next to the
sound/light room so the conductor can see the show.
Thanks so much for your time and interest
Mike Milbrath
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Mike,
sounds like things are popping! This is such an unknown area to me (and I bet some others) why don't you post some pics like Fred L has done. It would be great to see how a theater goes together. Never know when you'll need the info...
Undramatically, Lisa
*Gabe, I'm not here to argue, but.....Budgets are often established based on preliminary concept designs, bonding capacity of a municipality or public entity, and based on other like projects. You seem to be in a circle with lawyers and parties involved in lawsuits??? It is typically true that publicly bid buildings are built with prevailing wage rates, better (more costly) materials, and more "design" features; as compared to a no-nonsense, functional building that's made to last as long as the current owner might need it (if that!).I'm not accusing you of being off the mark. Though you should admit that in finalizing a concept design and budget, many details need to be worked out, and issues resolved. I think that's what the original inquiry pertained to. The original author seemed to me to looking for input about a process he has not experienced, yet. The Breaktime discussion board is a good place to share information about a variety of subjects, including commercial (theater) building. Who are you to judge the validity of opinions or advice given by Breaktime participants? For all you know some of us may be Architects, Set Designers, Theater Performers, or very knowledgeable spreaders of wisdom!
*Having remodeled a couple of Theatres and running sound and lights in theatres and churches for several years I'll throw in my 2cents worth.1. Make sure that you have plenty of extra conduit run for all that neat stuff that comes in the future.2. Plan any catwalks for lighting so that lighting instruments hung from them will actually throw to the area intended (this is my pet peeve, I've worked in to many places where the HVAC ducts totally block where you need to light and the catwalk design doesn;t let you hang lights where needed.) 3. Make sure that your audio reinforcement system has the capacity and flexibility to make sure everyone in the building hears especially the little old lady in the back right corner (she didn't in a local theatre and donated $500,000.00 to another venue)Just my raving.
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As a teacher of Voacl Music & Theatre At
a high school, I get to (joy of joys)
tell some architechs how to spend 3.9
million dollars building our new
Theatre. After years in the business and
years now spent working in sub standard
venues i have a pretty good idea of what
we need and want. However on the off
chance anyone has worked on such
project and can warn me of a disaster
looming in our future if we don't
consider this or that possibility I'd
love to hear from you
*Too late Mike, the architect will tell you what you will get and any changes will cost your department real money!The main reason public buildings costs as much as they do is because of input from people who want as opposed to input from people who know.Gabe Martel GSCProject Manager