Replies

1. 
   gen6 | Oct 30, 2003 08:42pm | #1

   Soapstone is a wonderful option- it's what they use in labs because it's nonporous and unless you seal it (which isn't necessary) it doesn't have the high-shine of granite.

2. 
   Slater | Oct 30, 2003 09:25pm | #2

   SLATE?

1. 
   Benj | Oct 31, 2003 03:19pm | #22

   Isn't slate notoriously difficult to take care of?

1. 
   Benj | Nov 06, 2003 06:15pm | #40

   I just received a sample of Camara Slate from VT in both green and grey/black and it is just beautiful. I have been trying to stain it with tomato sauce, wine, vinegar, and oil and so far the stone has been impervious. It did mark when I scratched it with a knife but I understand it can be buffed out with fine sandpaper (I haven't tried that yet). I am told VT slate is much harder than other slates. Does anyone know if this is true?

1. 
   WorkshopJon | Nov 15, 2003 04:10pm | #58

   "I am told VT slate is much harder than other slates. Does anyone know if this is true?"

   Ben,

   I don't know myself, but I do remember that a lot of homes built in Westchester County NY in the 20's - 50's had slate roofs. My dad at one time (by a rooing contractor he was interviewing for a job) was told that there were two types used, Vermont and some other kind. One was real cheap and didn't last (was on old house) and one that would last hundreds of years (which is on the current house).

   I'm sure this doesn't help you at all, but..........anybody know?

   Jon

   Edited 11/15/2003 8:11:29 AM ET by WorkshopJon

3. 
   BobKovacs | Oct 30, 2003 09:26pm | #3

   How about non-shiny granite?  It's tough to beat granite for durability, resistance to heat and knives, etc.  If it's the shine you don't like, have a honed finish put on it. 

   Stainless is another option- it's used in commercial kitchens everywhere, so it can obviously take the abuse of a real cook, and the kids.

   Bob

1. 
   MisterT | Oct 31, 2003 12:37am | #4

   Isn't marble what the fine pastry chefs use to roll out thier Croysaints?

   Actually Ive always thought a combination of surfaces would work best for a "working" kitchen.

   One piece steel sink and drain board washing area.

   Nice big section of Butcher block for butching.

   Marble area for rolling doughbies.

   Granite or Solid surface for the rest.

   Mr T

   Do not try this at home!

   I am an Experienced Professional!

   Edited 10/30/2003 5:42:25 PM ET by Mr T

1. 
   brownbagg | Oct 31, 2003 01:55am | #5

   lets ask one more question

   Is there a good surface that doesn't cost $30 a square foot?

1. 
   archyII | Oct 31, 2003 02:24am | #6

   Nope.

2. 
   Ruby | Oct 31, 2003 04:15am | #7

   Tile costs here some $4.50 to $6.- installed. In bigger pieces, there are less grout lines. Other than that, it is as good as any stone.

   Edited 10/30/2003 9:17:26 PM ET by Ruby

1. 
   NannyGee | Oct 31, 2003 05:34am | #12

   When I was growing up counters were what we put stuff on. We did "cooking" on other surfaces - blocks, matts, sheets, table, whatever.

   Somewhere along the line $10,000 became "disposable" income to average families while people started whining about how they had to have a double income in order to "pay taxes".

   We used ordinary ceramic tile on our last kitchen - burgundy with dark grey grout. Materials around $200. No problems in the seven years we lived there. Potential buyers when we were selling claimed it was one of their favorite features.

   We'll do a similar treatment in our kitchen remodel in our current home. We're gutting the kitchen. The total cost of all materials (n/i appliances) will probably be less than most trendy countertops alone.

2. 
   ChipTam | Oct 31, 2003 04:28pm | #23

   Well said NannyGee!  Ceramic tile is bullet-proof, inexpensive, and comes in a wide variety of colors, patterns and sheens.  Ok, the grout lines can be a problem but we've found that using gel bleach on the grout lines twice a year works well.

   Chip

3. 
   andybuildz | Nov 01, 2003 04:49pm | #26

   In one of my houses I used 18" granite tiles on the diaganal with a bullnose wood face same as the cabs (cherry). I couldn't afford solid granite.....looked even more awesome than solid when I was finished.

   Be well

             andyMy life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

4. 
   KARLSTER | Nov 01, 2003 10:48pm | #27

   Nanny,

   Even though granite fabrication pays my bills, I couldn't agree with you more on counters being a work surface.  It is absurd to pay the prices people do.

   I attribute it to things like the annual FHB kitchen and bath issue promoting really stunning kitchen treatments.  I grew up with the philosophy of "if it aint broke, don't fix it."  My folks would never remodel just because something was scuffed, stained or out of date.  It is shocking how many kitchens get trashed just to update a perfectly serviceable set of cabinets or countertop.

   Tile has a lot going for it.  In many cases I think you can make far more of a visual statement with tile and it is far less wasteful than most solid surfaces (in terms of generating scrap).  Again who cares if the grout stains?  It gives it character.  Anyone who worries about the grout harboring bacteria is fortunate they have enough spare time to worry about such things.

   If I didn't work for free on my own house and I wasn't a stone fabricator, I would go for wood, stainless and judicious use of slabs or tile all in the same room.  Since I work for free on my own house, it has granite slab.

   karl

5. 
   NannyGee | Nov 02, 2003 06:02am | #31

   Thanks for taking the time to offer your agreement re: tile. I'm so used to having people here disagree with me I'm kind of at a loss for words :-)

   Have a great day!

6. 
   Ken | Nov 06, 2003 08:36am | #36

   Are many people using granite tile or does it look like you're a CB and not willing to spring for the slab? I read in another posting, I think, that you set them at 1/16" spacing. It seems like that small of a grout line would be a lot easier to take care of than ceramic tile 1/4" or 3/16".

   Karl, it's nice to see your honesty!

7. 
   stonebm | Nov 06, 2003 09:08pm | #42

   I put granite tile on my countertops and I've gotten many positive comments on them.  I like the look of slabs of granite but the cost difference was huge.  Plus, I think the tiles are more traditional looking in a 100-year old house than granite slabs.  I think the tiles were about $7/sq.ft.

3. 
   twalsh | Oct 31, 2003 05:21am | #11

   I recently installed galvanized zinc..

   It wears well and gives that retro look common these days.

   It looked great in a Heartland applianced kitchen, and is simply wrapped around a sheet of 3/4"ac fir ply.

   Talk to your HVAC guy to obtain it.

   Edited 10/30/2003 10:23:25 PM ET by twalsh

1. 
   Benj | Nov 01, 2003 04:27pm | #25

   I was considering a zinc countertop but the guy at the store (Soupcan, Inc.) talked me out of it! He said that the zinc ages to look dirty all of the time. He said it will develop black spots in places...mind you I don't need a pristine countertop (in case you were thinking I am fussy). What has your experience been with the zinc countertop? Has anyone else liked our disliked their zinc? Thanks!

2. 
   MER02 | Oct 31, 2003 04:21am | #8

   Does anyone have experience with buying custom stainless steel countertops with integrated sinks? I am looking for this and am having a little trouble finding someone who can do it in Atlanta. I would love any and all advice. TIA!

   For those who don't recognise me, I usually post over on Cooks Talk. My DH and I are renovating our kitchen. Somework we have hired out and others we are doing ourselves.

1. 
   VaTom | Oct 31, 2003 04:43am | #9

   Does anyone have experience with buying custom stainless steel countertops with integrated sinks?

   Not custom, but my last client bought a commercial unit that was in sad shape, several breaks included.  The local machine shop performed what looked like a miracle to me.  Apparently no big deal for them to reweld and grind such that the repairs were unnoticeable.

   We're not very close to Atlanta, but there's got to be somebody there fabricating stainless.  Keep looking and good luck.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

2. 
   FastEddie1 | Oct 31, 2003 04:49am | #10

   I sort-of have experience with a custom sink-counter.  Went as far as to get a quote from a fabricator, then the client changed her mind.  I started by looking in the phone book under metal fabrication, and asked questions.  Didn't take too many calls to find a vendor.  You could also contact a large plumbing supply or kitchen supply and see if they have any referrals. 

   I specified 14 ga stainless, and they were going to weld in a sink that I supplied, minimum 18 ga.  The counter would have been u-shaped, so it would have been fab'ed and shipped in three pieces, then welded and polished in the kitchen.  Total size of the counter was 62 sf, total cost incl trip to the site (30 mi each way), welding, installing and polshing the sink was $5045 plus tax or $81.40/sf.  I looked at some sample welds in the shop, and the face was done well enough that I had to look at the back to see where it was joined.  Would have been a nice counter.

   Looking at the quote, the letterhead says "M&M Metals, air conditioning ductwork, sheet metal specialties" so maybe one of those catagories would be a good lead.

   Do it right, or do it twice.

   Edited 10/30/2003 9:51:43 PM ET by ELCID72

3. 
   SEBDESN | Oct 31, 2003 05:34am | #13

   Try a restaurant supply catagory in the yellow pages...There are  many fabricators

   of stainless that  do mostly  restaurant stuff...Big bucks however....

   Bud

4. 
   CapnMac | Oct 31, 2003 07:51am | #16

   First off, welcome to BT, Mer.

   Second off, while you are in the phone book, look for stone dealers--soapstone makes a great sink counter top, and you can undermount a matching sink.  MInd you, they are quarying soapstone only about 200 mile from here.

   Stainless needs to have a brush finish, or it will show hand, finger, rust, or any other kind of print.  It has a good "look," though.  To my thinking, I like different counter tops in different areas.  Plywood backed SS can be thin, down to 20 or 22 gauge, but you want a heavier sink, at least an 18 ga.  The welding & grinding are kind of exciting, on the job site, but the effects are worth it.

   Back to the thread:

   Since no one else has, I'll push Kevin's bandwagon a bit, and recommend concrete counter tops.  They have a unique place in kitches, and have some very nice effects/benefits.

   Also, there's a good article on counter tops in this month's Fine Home BuildingOccupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Nov 01, 2003 03:30am | #24

   Well Cap, I appreciate you pushing my wagon and all but for the record, I like concrete the most when it is used to tie several different functioning counter surfaces together, not just by itself.

   Ok, get in and I'll push your bandwagon for a minute - I really like your suggestion of soapstone. I didn't know they were quarrying it here in TX. Where is that at?Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   CapnMac | Nov 02, 2003 07:09am | #32

   I didn't know they were quarrying it here in TX. Where is that at?

   Down around San Antonio.  One story was that no one new what the overburden was in the limestone pits was.  Another, that the bulk had been to low to save the material.  I started hearing about it after I asked around looking for a soapstone sink for a farmhouse rehab.  Wound up with an apron-front sink with two side "wings" of matching soapstone on either side.  Mason almost had us convinced to rout in a drain board to the sink, too; but the beautiful stone won out.

   The State specs for lab surfaces are now easier to meet with soapstone, as the underlayment and acid-resist laminates have to have disclosures & MSDS data for any sort of public building.

   Oh, and I meant no blanket application cor concrete, only to consider it as one more usefull kitchen surface (it can be a "stepchild" of sorts).  Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

5. 
   BobKovacs | Oct 31, 2003 01:37pm | #19

   Go to http://www.thebluebook.com and select the Georgia edition.  Search on "food service equipment" as a keyword- there's 263 listings in GA for commercial kitchen equipment vendors- one of them should be able to take care of you.

   Bob

6. 
   SteveInCleveland | Nov 06, 2003 03:14pm | #38

   You may want to try this link on the web......

   http://www.stainlesssteelkitchen.com

4. 
   reinvent | Oct 31, 2003 06:41am | #14

   Have you heard of fire slate. I am sure you have seen it because its in almost every highschool science class. Its heat proof,stain proof, and even resitaint to most chemicals. If memory serves its a man made product using slate dust and a binder put under tremendous heat and preasure to create slabs abought an inch thick. I dont know the cost but its not cheap, although I think its less than granite. It is usally dark grey in color and I think it is also available in a dark green(think slate colours)

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 31, 2003 01:01pm | #18

   I've seen fireslat for fireplaces surronds and am considering it for a kitchen in a colonial cape but it is not entirely stainproof. I'm looking into sealers for it..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   AndyEngel | Nov 06, 2003 10:31pm | #44

   I've seen some nasty stains on Fireslate from, of all things, mashed potatos. I guess it was the butter.Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator

2. 
   clintcarter | Nov 06, 2003 08:52am | #37

   This is a good suggestion. It's actually Fireslate 2 now, it's the lab bench material but with no asbestos in it. Developed by a guy who used to work with the cutoffs from the (lab countertop) factory. I did a top in the pistachio green (also available in grey and brown?), which is not dark; a medium green. Fireslate is like a very fine grain cement and works with diamond saw blades and carbide router bits. There's no gluing the seams together; I used glass tile as a visual break at the seams. It needs to be sealed but is a beautiful durable relatively non-staining surface.  

5. 
   BANDAID | Oct 31, 2003 06:58am | #15

   You might check out the concrete countertop kits.  The ones I have seen are beutifull and after waxing and polishing smooth as glass.  I cant imagine anything much more durable.

1. 
   Benj | Oct 31, 2003 03:18pm | #21

   Thanks for your advice...don't concrete countertops etch with acid (lemon juice, wine, etc.) and also don't they crack? I do love the look of colored concrete though.

1. 
   BANDAID | Nov 02, 2003 12:58am | #29

   First off sorry i cant spell beautiful

   The countertops ive seen in concrete have been sealed with a wax product.  It fills in any pores and buffs to a glassy finish.  i would imagine it should give decent protection against acids and the like. also looks like it would maintain easily. 

   I havent thought to ask the homeowners recently how they like the countertops so I dont have much first hand info for you.  I just thought they looked really nice.

   Good Luck

   Edited 11/1/2003 8:14:25 PM ET by splinter

1. 
   Benj | Nov 02, 2003 05:47am | #30

   Thanks everyone for all of your help and advice...I am getting closer to figuring out what I want...I think. :)

2. 
   Mongo | Nov 06, 2003 06:39am | #34

   Splinter,

   It's likely that they were first sealed with a penetrating silicone-based sealer, then waxed. Renew the wax every few months, the silicone every few years.

6. 
   andybuildz | Oct 31, 2003 10:48am | #17

   "honed" granite or soapstone!

   Limestone I absolutly HATE even for floors!

   Be well

            andy

   My life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

7. 
   TomT226 | Oct 31, 2003 02:30pm | #20

   I've got both Corian and SS in our kitchen, and we cook 3 times a day, every day.

   The corian is durable, easily cleaned, and can be buffed down to any finish you want, and is easily repaired.

   The SS is heat proof, durable and easily cleaned. Don't go any thinner than 16 ga. on the stainless, as it welds better. Use only good ply for the core.

   Wouldn't have an under mount sink, or an integral sink either. Would make it hard to replace or repair.

8. 
   stossel1 | Nov 01, 2003 11:10pm | #28

   I used bamboo plywood for my countertops and have no regrets.

1. 
   toolinaround | Nov 04, 2003 06:32pm | #33

   Bamboo plywood...hmmmm....as a firm believer in bamboo floors I am fascinted by the thought.  What about moisture??  Is it direct glued??  Is it plyboo??  And one would think being gentle on the counters is important??  Would love to hear back on this.  Thanks, Beck

1. 
   stossel1 | Nov 10, 2003 04:36am | #48

   Sorry I didn't get back to you but I haven't checked this thread in awhile. I purchased my bamboo ply from the same guy I bought my flooring from, in this case a Chinese guy who got it from China. I found it to be the most economical counter choice of the products I liked. I can't recall what I paid but I have the reciept somewhere. Another advantage is you can work it like wood so I was able to install it myself in one afternoon. The stuff is bombproof although like most countertop materials you can't cut on it. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding it as I would think any Bamboo flooring supplier could get their hands on some.

1. 
   toolinaround | Nov 10, 2003 05:19am | #50

   Thanks for the infor....yet another annoying question, How thick is the material?? And is it bamboo specifically for counter tops?  Thanks in advance....Beck

1. 
   stossel1 | Nov 10, 2003 06:29am | #52

   It is 1 1/8 thick I just laid it right on top my cabinets and no I don't believe it is specifically made as a countertop material, I came up with that on my own.

2. 
   MER02 | Nov 06, 2003 05:30pm | #39

   bamboo plywood? I have some bamboo cutting boards and i just love bamboo flooring but I have never heard of using it as a countertop. What a great idea.

   Got any pictures?

1. 
   toolinaround | Nov 06, 2003 06:45pm | #41

   I too am interested in the bamboo counters, think I wrote something earlier, don't remember.  What about moisture, heat, etc.?  How careful do you need to be?  And what product do you use, plyboo?  (I don't know how thick that is), would love to see pics.

1. 
   Ronald | Nov 06, 2003 09:52pm | #43

   also what about some of the other weather resistant woods we use as outdoor decking,such as mahogany ,ipe ,teak ect.  anyone ever consider these for a countertop.  seems to me they are decent looking, moisture resistant,and hard.

1. 
   Mongo | Nov 06, 2003 10:54pm | #45

   I'm in the middle of installing a run of 8/4 teak countertops.

   Not laminated strip, but wide plank instead. 30" deep countertop, I'm using four boards to cover that depth. They look very, very nice, if I do say so myself.<g>

   Next up is a teak end-grain butcher block top to cap the raised end of an island. Five inches thick. About 38" by 48".

2. 
   stossel1 | Nov 10, 2003 04:38am | #49

   Sorry Mer, Ibang nails during the day and occasionally bang on this keyboard at night, posting a pic is beyond my computer skills.

1. 
   MER02 | Nov 10, 2003 05:23am | #51

   Don't worry. Does it look just like bamboo flooring or does it look like some kind of multilayered product the way regular plywood ?

   Thanks! It sounds gorgeous.

1. 
   stossel1 | Nov 10, 2003 06:41am | #53

   It looks exactly like the flat grain flooring except it comes 3'x6'x 1 1/8. I'm not certain but i think you can get it in the vertical grain also. If you like the flooring product you will probably like the plywood.

2. 
   brownbagg | Nov 10, 2003 07:41am | #54

   question: I have some pretty oak from a tree I cut down while clearing five years ago. i did all my window sills with this oak. I have a counter behind the stove, its a half way/bar seperateing the rooms, I heard somebody call it a pony wall (?)

   question--- Do you think this oak make a good countertop? like a breakfast bar top.

3. 
   Jamieh | Nov 11, 2003 09:27pm | #55

   We've been looking at Richlite but have just been told by the Environmental Home Center in Seattle that the company is now going to a certified installer system, thus eliminating the DIY  possibilities and raising the $/sq ft to an unreasonable level. They have another similar product called Paperstone which pencils out to about $25/sq ft as raw stock. I love the look and the fact that they're just a little softer than stone, tile, or concrete. I hate it when a glass falls over and you have no choice than to sweep it up. Does anyone have experience with either of these?

   BTW,  the cost and beauty of tile is a pretty compelling argument. Maybe some good tile and a section of butcher block. Hmmm.

   Thanks, Jamie

4. 
   MER02 | Nov 15, 2003 05:46am | #56

   Just checked out Richlite this week and was surprised at how soft it was. It was very easy to scratch and I know that for me, it would look worn way too quickly. Plus the color choices were very limited.

5. 
   stonefever | Nov 15, 2003 08:43am | #57

   Why not?  You got extra if you have to replace it anyway!

9. 
   Bruce | Nov 06, 2003 07:12am | #35

   Check out http://www.richlite.com

   This is a material that had been used in commercial countertops for years, and is now going residential.  If you're a decent trim carpenter, this is definite DIY material.

   Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC

10. 
    Bruce | Nov 07, 2003 04:11am | #46

    Haven't read every one of the replies, but there's and issue that you, and everyone else contemplateing a countertop, needs to address, that being ...

    Are you and your family the type of people who like that new, never been worn look on a regular basis?  Or are you willing to accept, and enjoy, the idea that a countertop shows age and wear over time, developing a "patina?"  Not saying that one or the other is better, or more PC, you just gotta decide and then right up front you can discard a bunch of choices one way or the other.

    Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC

1. 
   KARLSTER | Nov 07, 2003 08:19am | #47

   Good Point Bruce,

   I just put limestone slab countertops in my grandmas 120 yr old house.  It needs a countertop that will show some wear and blend in with the rest of the house.

   I had always told my clients they shouldn't use limestone in their kitchen as it is too easy to etch or stain.  In my grandma's case the etching and staining are exactly what we are after. 

   I know the first few scratches and stains will look bad but after a few hundred it will develop a great patina.

   I haven't had a client yet who didn't obsess over their stone slab countertops looking absolutely perfect.  In many respects it is a lot of work having a mirror finish on a worksurface.  It shows handprints, waterspots, etc just like Stainless steel.

   I am getting weary of the showpiece kitchens.  They are supposed to be for working in, not showing off.

   Karl

11. 
    ahneedhelp | Nov 15, 2003 07:02pm | #59

    If you want affordable/cheap, there is nothing wrong with good quality laminate with hardwood edging (better looking).

    With three young boys our kitchen is very busy.

    We have cutting boards in various size and material for different tasks, which includes setting hot pans that come off the stove or out of the oven.

    Never broke a glass/dish on our counter.

    No maintenance except wiping it down.

    Signs of wear ? There is, but it ain't a big deal compared to other tops that cost more then a Dacor range.

    Spend your money in a deeper stainless sink if you don't have one already.