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Advice for foundation pour first timer

canoehead2 | Posted in Construction Techniques on September 12, 2007 07:05am

I am planning a pour of 5 5.5′ deep 6″ sonotube columns with ‘BigFoot’ footings.  I’m doing the pour myself (with concrete supplied by a transit mixer) and won’t be able to get the truck’s chute close enough so I’ll be wheelbarrowing about 30′ from the truck to the tubes.

It will take 1/2 a wheelbarrow per tube (400 lbs of fresh concrete) and, I figure that with the time to ‘rod’ the 4 lifts per tube, that it will take me 20 minutes per tube.  Then I have to sink 3 5′ #4 rebars per tube.

Then I need to place anchor ‘J’ bolts in each pier.

All told I think this will take me 1.5 to 1.75 hours from start to finish. 

My questions are:

1) Is this too long for the concrete to remain workable enough?  Will I have trouble setting the anchor bolts?

2) Any recommendations on the order of doing things?  Can I pour each tube and leave the sinking of the rebars and ‘J’ bolts until the end (after the truck has left)?

3) I gather that I can have the concrete supplier mix in a set delay additive.  Or should I be asking for a plasticizer to maintain workability?

4) Any other advice?  I bet lots of you are thinking “get a helper!” for the pour.  I’m looking for one.  Might need to find a day labourer at the govt job bank office I suppose.  Even if I have a helper, I still need advice on how to sequence the job.

Thanks.

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Replies

  1. User avater
    IMERC | Sep 12, 2007 07:24am | #1

    It will take 1/2 a wheelbarrow per tube

    way too much for the wheelbarrow and operator...

    All told I think this will take me 1.5 to 1.75 hours from start to finish. 

    triple yur time...

    My questions are:

    1) Is this too long for the concrete to remain workable enough?  Will I have trouble setting the anchor bolts?

    as long as it is still in the truck you'll be okay...

    2) Any recommendations on the order of doing things?  Can I pour each tube and leave the sinking of the rebars and 'J' bolts until the end (after the truck has left)?

    you'll never get the bars all the way in unless you vibrate them in...

    install bars as you go...

    'J' bolts will probably be okay...

    3) I gather that I can have the concrete supplier mix in a set delay additive.  Or should I be asking for a plasticizer to maintain workability?

    are you doing this alone??? delay... (retarder)

    4) Any other advice?  I bet lots of you are thinking "get a helper!" for the pour.  I'm looking for one.  Might need to find a day labourer at the govt job bank office I suppose.  Even if I have a helper, I still need advice on how to sequence the job.

    get the helper and run two 'barrows...

    1 guy fills and sets steel / 'J' bolts the other wheels...

    take smaller loads while yur at it...

    Thanks.

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!
    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

    1. canoehead2 | Sep 12, 2007 07:51am | #2

      Thanks for the advice IMERC.  Will find a helper and will buy a second wheelbarrow.

      Reminds me of a summer job I had once on a commercial job site when I was 16.  One day I got stuck transporting concrete up a wood ramp not more than 2' wide up to the foundation sill and to the building's elevator shaft.  Did about 10 trips and the concrete truck operator kept filling my 'barrow to the brim!  I was too timid to tell him to make it less full and almost tore my arms off keeping the #$#&* thing in balance while 'walking the plank' which was a good 5 feet above grade since the foundation hadn't been backfilled yet.

      I think that experience 17 years ago scard me and that is why I'm so anxious about this upcoming pour ;)

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Sep 12, 2007 07:59am | #3

        no problem...

        rent 2 serious wheel barrows instead...

        perhaps others will be by to offer their opinions... Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      2. Jason99 | Sep 12, 2007 09:16am | #4

        Never be afraid to tell the operator no or slow down or get the hell off my property.  They will become alot more compliant when the are faced rushing back with a hot load the is unpaid for.  You get twice the work done if you fill those bugger up half way and can move them easily.  I would also be ready to pay extra for the time.  In my area we get about 4.5 minutes per yard inlcuded then its like 90 cents a minute.  I would also consider pour the first load the placing your reinforcement  the pour on top of it and reposition after each dump.  Bring rubber gloves and a little bottle of lemon juice to wash your hands with when you are done.  Also maybe premake a plywood shoot so you get it all in the tube quickly.  Good Luck.  Its just concrete take your time and hurry up.

        Jason

        1. canoehead2 | Sep 12, 2007 02:34pm | #6

          Yup.  I have no problem telling the operator what to do (not like when I was just a bewildered kid on a big commercial job site).

          Thanks for the lemon juice tip.

  2. Piffin | Sep 12, 2007 12:23pm | #5

    To make it go faster per tube, fashion some sort of cone so you can tip and pour from the wheelbarrow directly into the tube instead of shoveling it in.

    Don't forget that YOU are the boss on this one so tell the driver to stop when you say stop.

    Set up the area where the chute hits the wheelbarrow with a sheet of plywood level because there will be some spillage. That way you can scoop it up to use, and the level ply floor will help you keep the wheelbarrow from tipping over.

    If you are renting a wheelbarrow, roofers and concrete men use a dual wheeled one that is more stable and less likely to tip over and spill the beans. Rent oneadem

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. canoehead2 | Sep 12, 2007 02:35pm | #7

      Thanks Piffen.  I can buy one extra BigFoot form and invert it to form a funnel.

  3. User avater
    popawheelie | Sep 12, 2007 04:14pm | #8

    One other thing. Make sure your helper knows something about concrete. One time I had a helper on pour day and he was useless. He had no idea. This stuff is drying! It will be hard as a rock soon! Useless!

    Edit: It was my pour and it was my fault. I should have had more/better help.



    Edited 9/12/2007 9:24 am ET by popawheelie

    1. brownbagg | Sep 12, 2007 04:43pm | #9

      get three helpers, do not touch a wheelbarrow, only thing you worry about is anchor bolts, get two trucks, a hour apart..Haga su trabajo de fricken

      1. canoehead2 | Sep 12, 2007 08:46pm | #10

        Wouldn't it be cheaper to have retardant added than to order a second truck?

        Also, for a $150 more than renting a second wheelbarrow (I only have 1), I can rent a concrete caddy which can carry my whole pour the 30' to the sonotubes.  Anyone every use one of these?

        1. User avater
          IMERC | Sep 12, 2007 08:57pm | #11

          that's a goat or a mlu in some parts yur referring to and a serious bunch of CC to deal with...

          that won't be such a good move...

          like said...

          pour bases / set bar / top off / set J bolts....

          help is yur best ally....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

          WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

        2. migraine | Sep 12, 2007 10:45pm | #13

          I know concrete is brownbag's day job is concrete and the other well knowns have chimed in, but from a guy that has two blown out shoulders(again), why not set the rebar ahead of time and hire a pumper?   Most tow behind pumpers have at least 100' of hose on them . 

          Is a a few hundred bucks not worth it?   Time to hire a guy(or two) and pick up and return one or two burros/wheel barrels just doesn't make sense to me.  Plus, the pump guy's labor is free if you hire his rig  ;~)

          Anyway, that's my $.02

          1. User avater
            IMERC | Sep 12, 2007 10:58pm | #14

            if he sets the bar in the dirt he needs to remember to pull the bar up into the CC by at least 2 inches...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

        3. Faulted1 | Sep 13, 2007 03:44am | #18

          Concrete Caddy -- Yes, RENT IT!

          1. User avater
            observer | Sep 13, 2007 03:50am | #19

            If you don't mind getting your hands dirty, site mixing in a 3 ft^3 mixer will cost you a yard of navvy, 3 or 4 bags of cement and about 4-5 hrs. No labourers, no wheelbarrow rentals, no short load or excessive time charges, no pumpers, no additives. Work at your own pace with fresh concrete.

          2. User avater
            EricPaulson | Sep 13, 2007 03:57am | #21

            navvy?

            sand and pea gravel?[email protected]

             

             

             

             

          3. User avater
            observer | Sep 13, 2007 05:55am | #25

            yes, though I've seen it sold with 1"- as well

          4. crazycorms | Sep 13, 2007 05:04am | #24

            I agree,

            This gives you plenty of time to make sure your rebar and bolts are done properly.  Mixing on site is by no means difficult and it eliminates the stress of trucks, time, and unfamilar helpers. 

            It's not that dirty!!

             

  4. User avater
    SamT | Sep 12, 2007 10:22pm | #12

    Your tubes hold 4.32 cuft, plus the footer. Call it 5 cuft. 1.5 cuft is a good sized barrow load. 3.5 trips per tube = 130' traveled per tube. At 1'/sec, (slow) that's 2 minutes per tube, 5 tubes = 10 minutes travel time.

    You have 18 Placements, that's gonna take around 9 minutes, again slow.

    Stab three rods = 30 seconds, slow, Add travel to the next tube, 10 seconds, Misc travel, 20 seconds; 60 seconds per tube: = 5 minutes

    Elapsed time = 25 Man Minutes. Stab Anchors after pour.

    Timing per IMERCS System

    10 Placements, 5 tubes = ten minutes
    Rod 'crete and Stab rebar = five minutes
    10 placements = 10 minutes

    Truck leaves, Rod 'crete, Set Anchors. No help.

    Stabbing the rebar when they're half full gives you a 5 minute break from running mud. Make no mistake, it will be a 30 minute aerobic weight training session.

    You will need to properly brace the sonotubes and build a ramp, about 4' long. With a single wheeled barrow, you can use a 2x4 up to about 18" lift. Over 18":4' go up to a 6' 2x6. With a double wheeled barrow, you'll have to use 2x10s or 12s. Add four minutes between lifts for moving it. A longer break, but you're still around a half hour truck time.

    The mud will still work for as long as it's in the truck up to, IIRC, about 4 hrs, but that does reduce it's maximum strength and could delay its' reaching design strength.

    Brownbagg will know the maximum time 'crete can stay on the truck. It's well past 1/2 hour.

    SamT



    Edited 9/12/2007 3:37 pm by SamT

    1. canoehead2 | Sep 13, 2007 03:34am | #16

      Great analysis  thanks.

  5. jet | Sep 13, 2007 03:32am | #15

    Do you have any metered trucks in your area?
    We do. Minimum is 1 yard then you pay for only what they mix. Mixed at the truck.
    This would solve your timing problem as it's mixed only as it comes out of the truck. As well as you only pay for what theymix. No need to estimate how much you will need or if you are over where the driver can dump the rest.

    "No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
    1. canoehead2 | Sep 13, 2007 03:42am | #17

      Yes we do.  In fact that IS what I am planning to use.  Also called a transit mixer, right?

      Sounds like work time will basically not be an issue in this case.  All I need to do is prep, not over fill my barrow and everything should be fine.

      Someone posted the idea of using a pumper.  I assumed the price would be astronomical for my small job but I'll give one a call tomorrow.

  6. User avater
    EricPaulson | Sep 13, 2007 03:56am | #20

    According to Sam T. that's about 7.5 bags of gravel mix per.

    Mix it by hand. It's less than a yard. Have you priced this delivered?

    I could do that alone and be cleaned up in time to eat lunch.

     

    [email protected]

     

     

     

     

    1. JAlden | Sep 13, 2007 04:40am | #22

      I'd mix by hand too. But my numbers are less than Sam's.

      6" dia x 66" deep or did I read that wrong?

      1. User avater
        EricPaulson | Sep 13, 2007 04:49am | #23

        I don't have my concrete slide rule handy, and even with that it's difficult to do such small quantities.

        How do you figure it?[email protected]

         

         

         

         

      2. canoehead2 | Sep 15, 2007 01:01am | #28

        I actually now have 8" tubes 5' long plus 24" bigfoots at the bottom.  Makes 4.25 ft^3 per pier for a total of 21.25 ft^3 (.8 yards).

        I think I like the idea of using a mixer especially since I have just done a "dry run" and found that my wheelbarrow won't tip enough before the lip hits the tops of my sonotubes.  A mixer is much taller, right?

        The mix would have cost me about $500 when I include the 1 hour I'll need the truck to hang around.

        What recipe should I use?  I need 20 MPa (3000 psi) concrete.  My handy dandy reference says 1 part portland cement + 1.75 parts sand + 3 parts aggregate + 18 L water for every 40kg (88 lbs) of cement.

        What does that translate to in shovel fulls?  What kind of sand do I order?  What about aggregate?  3/4" limestone OK?  I saw a post mentioning pea gravel.  I assume pea gravel makes working the concrete easier.

        Sorry for all the questions.  You guys have been so helpful so far!

         

        1. User avater
          IMERC | Sep 15, 2007 01:11am | #29

          use the high strength sackcrete from the big box...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

          WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          1. JAlden | Sep 15, 2007 04:33am | #34

            I'll second that. It's only about a buck more per bag. There must be a little more cement in it than the regular mix.

            CH-  And just enough water to mix. Stiff as you can, so to speak.

            When you're done, you'll wonder what all the worrying was for.

          2. canoehead2 | Sep 15, 2007 05:42pm | #36

            Yup.  Premix bags is convenient.  I can have them deliver the skids close to my work site.

            Thanks everyone.  Talk to you again when I start framing!  (just kidding).

             

          3. User avater
            IMERC | Sep 15, 2007 06:47pm | #37

            that's up to yur supplier...

            but ya got a wheel barrow...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

        2. brownbagg | Sep 15, 2007 01:27am | #30

          if yo got to ask the recipe for hand mix concrete, you already lost the battle, I myself would run you off the job..Haga su trabajo de fricken

        3. User avater
          SamT | Sep 15, 2007 02:13am | #31

          "1 part portland cement + 1.75 parts sand + 3 parts"Four shovels per part; 4:7:12. Backwards, gravel, then sand, then cement. Except, you're an amateur, so make it 5 shovels cement, to cover any water mistakes. Let mix for 20 seconds, then add water until it's like mashed potatoes. It should flow like cold honey, not soupy at all.Rod it well after each dump.After stabbing the anchors, seal the top with Saran Wrap so fresh air can't get to the top of the 'crete.Edit: That $500 cost is for a minimum load of 3-5 yards. If you need a slab or walk somewhere, form it up and use the 'crete to fill the minimum to pour that.Told ya, ya need ramps for the wheelbarrow.SamT

          Edited 9/14/2007 7:24 pm by SamT

          1. Piffin | Sep 15, 2007 03:14am | #33

            I learnt it at 3/6/9Makes a good mix and is easy to remember...or was it 4/8/12? LOL 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        4. sisyphus | Sep 15, 2007 02:25am | #32

          Unless I want to have a pile of sand, a pile of stone, and a sorer back,  I do what IMERC said. Small pours with bagged premix.

        5. User avater
          observer | Sep 15, 2007 06:17am | #35

          Pea gravel is often what is used in Navvy Jack, a premix sand/aggregate blend available at most gravel suppliers. Here, the rental yards carry navvy for about $30/yard and deliver at $30 a trip. They can bring the mixer with them, another $60 or so for the day.If you go this route, mix about 5 parts navvy to 1 part cement to 5/6 part water, gives roughly 3500psi. Adjust water as required in small increments to get right consistency. Too much weakens the mix. Don't use shovel to measure, fill buckets pre-marked with quantity required so you get a more consistent mix. Aggregate in the mixer first, cement second and mix them dry briefly. Add water and mix a couple of minutes till slurry is even consistency and has absorbed all water.

  7. VTNorm | Sep 14, 2007 02:09am | #26

    I just poured 6 of these http://www.foottube.com/ set 5 ft deep. Each one took 13, 80lbgs of mix. I used my portable mixer set up right next to the tube, I could mix and pour each tube in just about an hour. 15 minutes to vibrate and rebar and move the mixer to the next post. A comfortable pace without killing myself - I've done the wheelbarrel routine from a truck on a couple of occasions. No thanks. Absolutely, physically crushed that night and sore for a couple of days afterwards.

    If you insist on the wheel barrel, get this one: http://www.altiminc.com/index.html

    -Norm

     

  8. fixit | Sep 14, 2007 04:09am | #27

    Don't know why you're not setting the rebar before the pour. Its fairly easy to do and here at least its required before you get approved for the pour.

    Also, make sure you work the 'crete in the tubes a little bit so you get the air out and don't end up with voids in the tube. I use a rebar rod or a iron digging bar.

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