Advice on dealing with contractor (roof) underbid
Recently, we found many leaks in our house (about 2000 square feet of roof). We got several bids on a new roof and selected the contractor we were most comfortable with. We liked him because he seemed to be the most honest and straight forward. He suggested starting by examining the skylights for leaks. After realizing that the skylights were not the source of the problem the job expanded to the whole roof. We agreed on a new price and the work proceeded (and is still ongoing). It turns out that he bit off more than he can chew and has been guilting us over the course of the job by saying things like “I really regret taking on this project,” “this project has put me behind schedule on a bunch of other jobs,” “I had to turn down a commercial job for this roof,” “I’m going to have to pay out of pocket to finish this job” etc. etc. Before accepting the job the contractor was quite confident in being able to complete the project sufficiently. However, our confidence has slowly been slipping away due to his repeated comments such as “I hope this roof doesn’t leak when I’m done.” In addition, it has turned out that his crew is made up of very inexperienced roofers. The contractor comes and goes and catches some of their mistakes but he isn’t here to catch them all, which makes us question whether it’s a solid job. They are now about 2/3 done with the roof and are over a week into the project. Overall, we like the guy personally and this is a small town atmosphere so we don’t want to burn bridges or cause him harm business wise. We also feel guilty that he’s going to lose money on the job. But if we pay him over the bid we are getting to the point where we could have had a more experienced roofer do everything right, faster and with a longer workmanship warranty. Is this a situation where we should pay him the extra money so he at least breaks even?
Replies
I'd suggest you have a reasonably friendly heart-to-heart with him, agree on a new price, then hold him to it. On the one hand you don't want to get ripped off or pay for his mistakes, but on the other hand if he feels he's being treated unfairly the job will be less than stellar.
He probably got into this thinking it was a simple skylight patch job, then was caught off guard when the scope expanded, both upsetting his manpower planning and causing him to rush the estimate for the new work. A larger contractor would have had more flexibility in this situation.
Thanks Dan - in the end, this is the advice we went with. We're negotiating a new price and will come to an agreement so everyone feels comfortable with the situation. I like your thinking!
you get what you pay for!!!
From the first time he commented being over his head that should have been the end of it. Over a week for a 20 square roof???
it is not on you that he is loosing his ass in labor cost. 20 sq roof has never taken my roofer more than 2 days. Hell they did 120 square on 10/12 in less than a week and a half.
Your not burning bridges for doing what you agreed to...in fact sounds like you will be on the hook for paying to fix the new roof not too far down the road.
Is he licensed? insured? a general contractor? a roofing contractor?
what is his workmanship warranty?
talk's cheap
Would love to see evidence of your roofer completing a 20 sq. geodesic dome roof (w/ repairs of leaking skylights) in 2 days.
NumNuts
He never said it was a goe, you obviously have nothing to contribute to the conversation so why dont you go back to doodling on napkins and show us a scketch of how you can remove the stick that up your a$$
open mouth; insert foot
mark122 wrote:
He never said it was a goe
"Yes, your memory is solid! It's the dome." luher
Sure he did. But you'd rather shoot from the hip before having any context whatsoever. Seems to be you M.O. How much further (and how many times) do you intend to insert it? Don't know? Well, don't worry, I'm patient. I'll continue to help you until you're full.
look at the thread, find where he finally confirmed that it was a geo in comparison to everyones comments....found it? ok.
the roof
Yes, he is licensed, bonded and insured. The workmanship warranty is five years.
Own the problem
"We also feel guilty that he's going to lose money on the job. But if we pay him over the bid we are getting to the point where we could have had a more experienced roofer do everything right, faster and with a longer workmanship warranty."
The reason you are feeling guilty is because you know that you are complicit in this problem. You are acknowledging, in the above quote, that if you spent the right money you would have gotten the right job. Instead you elected to take a chance and maybe save some money. You gambled and you lost. So now what? Will more money mean the right job? I guess you better hope so because you're under contract.
Others can avoid this problem by reading an article I wrote on the subject:
http://www.traditionalroofing.com/TR8_contractors.html
Maybe I missed something here....
Maybe I missed something here, but from what I read, the couple hired the craftsman because they felt comfortable with him because they liked him, felt they could work with him, and because he was "honest" in their estimation.
They're in a ethical dilemma and I don't think you can rant that they caused or were complicit in the problem because they didn't read your article first or because they were cheap. I don't read "cheap" into anything that they wrote nor does it sound like they "gambled". They're homeowners looking to do the right thing without getting burnt and without burning someone else. I think that's noble.
You did miss something.
YOu did miss something. Apparently the differnet roofing bids contained different length warrantys. This would have been known up front before any contract was accpeted. The owners went with a shorter warranty than what they could've paid for. That tells me that there was clearly a bit of risk taking or "gambling" going on here.
The other fishy aspect of this post is a desire to see the current contractor "break even". How would he know when or even if he would be breaking even. Is he the roofer's accountant or book keeper?
The contractor has been very straight forward with us on the costs incurred on this project. We know what his guys are making per hour, we know when they've worked, we have breakdowns of the material costs etc. So, it's not exactly "fishy." He's been very transparent with his costs, which we appreciate. This is the first contractor I've ever dealt with, but from what I've heard, it sounds like this is abnormal.
Thanks Chris - you hit the nail on the head. We accept responsibility for our decision and like I said in a different reply, we went with what we could afford. To our knowledge we were given an accurate bid. Had we known the bid was going to increase to the range of a more experienced contractor we probably would have made a different decision.
Two reasons this still sounds fishy
Luhar,
With all due respect, it sounds fishy because you say you started with the contractor bidding work on skylights, then the scope expanded to the whole roof. So his bid did not change, the scope of the problem is what changed. If you had a "more experienced" roof give you a competing bid that included the scope of work you are now having to deal with and didn't question the validity of the lower bid (in terms of accuracy and cost) you accepeted, you are more than naive. I would call that wishful thinking. You apparently had all the cards on the table, yet simply played them poorly.
As far as knowing the costs of your current contractor: Unless you are working with him T&M or Cost Plus, then it is irrelevant what he is paying himself or his crew members. Why he would share that information with you (or why you would inquire) is beyond me. Do you also know his overhead (that is part of the job wether you realize it or not)?. If you do, then that is just plain weird. On the other hand, If your contract is T&M or Cost Plus, then you never had a bid in the first place.
No offense taken - I know I'm still learning this process. I think I'm losing something in my translation of events. He did offer new prices (so I suppose that's different from a "bid") as each new problem occurred and we made agreements on new prices as new problems arose. It started with a whole roof bid and he convinced us (wisely) to start with the skylights. Then, it migrated back to the whole roof. Anyway, my main concern was finding a fair way to compensate him for the amount he went over on his original price without feeling like we were misled. In hindsight, we should have gotten new bids as we learned things - but I'll chalk that up to inexperience.
Correct- I don't know his overhead. I know his break even price because he outright told me how much he would have to pay out of pocket to break even. I don't know why he told us his guys rates, but he did. He also told us how much he wants to be paying his guys in the future (I have no idea why). Using all that information (excluding future pay) you can come to a rough estimate of actual expenses.
In the end - my advice for people who run into similar things is to call the person and work it out. That's what I did and it's fine. My other piece of advice is to ask a lot of questions about what happens if there are cost over runs or whether there will be cost over runs. I know I'll be asking a lot more questions in the future.
Regardless, deadnuts, I'm sure you'll see me on here again with some other problem, as much as I try to avoid them.
what process is that?
Learing what process? Being a general contractor or just being a homeowner? No rules to learn for the latter. At any rate, it's always a pleasure corresponding with you on this forum.
Still curious; is this the geodesic dome shingle roof job, or not?
We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm finding that there are unwritten "rules" attached to homeowning that I certainly never encountered when renting. Or, maybe they just come with the people I've worked with.....or, they just come with houses that need repairs. The process of selecting good contractors is the learning experience I'm referring to here. As well as learning the process of payment (I never thought this would be complicated)- apparently some contractors expect to be tipped - which was the case in my current situation. Yes, your memory is solid! It's the dome.
You are most welcome and best of luck with the situation!
Thanks Ward - I think we made a decision that a lot of homeowners would have made. We did follow many of the tips in your article (got estimates, called references, made sure he was licensed bonded and insured). Everything checked out. We had to make the decision of whether we would take out a second mortgage for the roof or work with someone a little less experienced at an affordable price (not cheap - but affordable). Yes - we elected to to go with the latter and we're willing to accept the workmanship that comes with it - but at the agreed upon price (or within a fair margin). We have never roofed a house, purchased materials for a roof or even owned a house before this one, so there is no way we could have knowingly taken advantage of him financially. I don't know if we were "complicit," but maybe naive and ignorant.
I do like your article.......
This sounds familiar
Is your roofing project the one you brought up a couple months ago? You know, the one with a shingled roof covering a geodesic dome frame structure...glass atrium appendage on it?