Replies

1. 
   Frankie | Oct 28, 2002 09:23pm | #1

   1. The waterproof membrane whether it is lead or a composite material should be one piece, or if more than one, should be overlapped according to the manufacturers instructions.

   2. The membrane should turn up the wall for 6"-8" on all four sides - thus creating the "Shower Pan." This means that at the corners you will have to do some fancy FOLDING and NO CUTTING!

   3. Three bolts may seal the membrane at the drain but you will not know until the job is done. This can easily be fixed now at a far less cost and inconvinience than later when your beautiful tile job is complete and everyone has admired it.

   4. I suspect that the reason the previous framer/ installer had the curb backerboard (CEMENT BOARD) 1/2" shy of the floor is that he/ she used the concept used when installing backer board on shower walls - which are inside the shower pan - so that water cannot wick up behind the tiles. The important point here though is that water should never have access to the shower curb backer board fasteners. The waterproof membrane should wrap or at least fold over the top of the shower curb.

   5. Once I can lay out the shower pan, but before I nail or screw it to the studs I apply small dabs of 100% silicone to wherever I plan to pierce the vertical surface of the pan. This then is where I nail or screw through. It self seals the hole. NEVER screw, nail or pierce the pan floor other than for the drain.

   Hope this helps.

1. 
   DougG | Oct 28, 2002 11:14pm | #2

   Thanks for your help, Frankie.

   I was able to get hold of FHB Vol 141 with the article about shower pan install.

   Tom Meehan suggested in the article to use PVC cement between the underside of the PVC membrane and the drain floor flange. I did this, bolted down the collar using the three bolts left and let it set for 4 hours. I then took off the collar to seal the drain at the pipe under the floor and filled the pan with about 2" of water.

   To keep track of the water level, I put a piece of wood just touching the water and stapled it to a stud above the membrane level. After 8 hours, the wood was still just disturbing the surface tension, and there was no  evidence of water outside the pan. I did not bolt the collar back down while the pan was full of water, so the seal itself held. (Believe me, I was listening carefully for drips on the ceiling below the pan after I put the water in.)

   Today I have been working on the seat that is in the shower. The previous install simply continued the deck around the garden tub. There was a glass surround mounted onto the deck, but the seat was dead level or even sloping away and there was no membrane or other water proofing on the seat.

   To fix these problems, I nailed tapered cedar shims to the underlying plywood. The shims are in line with the studs in the wall behind the seat. I then filled in between the shims with thinset to provide a floor like base. This geve me a slope to seat of about 1/4" per foot. Then I with membrane which goes up the sides about 4" and continues down the front and overlaps the pan membrane about 4" but is not cemented to it. I am going to cover this membrane with backerboard using 100% silicone in a bead between the board and the membrane where the screws will penetrate. I realize this will not be totally water proof, but it is sloped and will be always above the water level in the shower by about 18".

   A picture is attached showing the seat with the membrane installed but not the backer board. The picture is taken through the shower doorway. The showerhead is to the left of picture on the wall parallel to the front of the seat. It is about 50" from the seat to the wall with the showerhead.

   I thought about not screwing the backer board to the seat and holding it in place by bringing the backer board on the front up about 1/2" above the membrane to trap the seat backer board on the front. The walls on the sides and back would trap it there. I would then fill the corners with thinset and trowel in fiberglass corner tape, but the seat backerboard could still flex a little and could lead to problems with the tile later. What do you think?

   Thanks for your help!

   
1. 
   Frankie | Oct 29, 2002 04:54pm | #3

   Why take the chance? Screw the seat backer board down, cover it with the waterproofing membrane and move on. For the cost and time of a few screws think of all the sleepless nights you'll avoid. Sounds to me you are beginning/ already begun to over think this project. Remember the KISS concept.

   However,...as for the drain/ bolt issue. I would not doubt your caulk/ seal assembly "held water". But the pan had no live load. Seems the shower is big enough for two people. That's 3-400 lbs. moving around and then some. Ah yes, this may cause cracks in the grout at the floor wall corners BUT that's why you have a pan. Plus you can always recaulk/ regrout. No damage. If you drain seal fails think of the damage, work, and untimeliness of the results.

   One last thing. You won't know about this failure, ie. a slow leak, until months after it has begun. By that time, though only a small brown mark will appear on the ceiling below, the amount of GWB replacement will be significant not to mention mold, or joist damage. You have everything open now. I do not understand why you insist on cornercutting on such an important detail yet overthink others?

   To All: So many things can go wrong in life why do we feel it is necessary to invent more?

1. 
   DougG | Oct 30, 2002 11:41am | #4

   Thanks Frankie -- Good advice :>)

   I am overthinking.

   "You have everything open now." -- Unfortunately, its not open.  To replace the part of the drain with the broken bolt I would have to either go through underneath by tearing out the finished ceiling below in a very public area with a ceiling height of 10" or go through from above by sawing out  a portion of the subfloor (the subfloor panel with the drain extends under a finished ceramic tile floor adjacent to the shower). That is what I was trying to avoid with some additional effort at the seal.

1. 
   Frankie | Oct 30, 2002 04:20pm | #5

   So the photo does not reflect the present condition?

2. 
   DougG | Oct 30, 2002 06:14pm | #7

   The previous photo is present condition. You're right, it does look all open.

   NNW view attched is another photo taken from further back which may help. The SSW view is from inside the bathroom.

   Also attached is a view of the drain itself with the collar attached. The broken bolt is on the right.

   The stud wall is new with the 'remodel' and will replaces a glass surround which SWMBO hated. Need I say more?

   Thanks

3. 
   Frankie | Oct 30, 2002 06:44pm | #10

   So you:

   1. Pick up the waterproof membrane,

   2. Cut a square/ rectangle around the drain keeping in mind how your framing is,

   3. Replace the drain flange assembly,

   4. Patch the square you took out - depending how you did it you may be able to reuse the original peice. TIP - Cut the square out with a jig saw up to the nearest joist/ cross peice. Before you reinstall it, sister the joist/ cross piece to provide a seat for the patch.

   5. Replace the waterproof membrane.

   6. You're done!

   This should take 2hrs max. Probably less time than you have spent thinking about doing it. Sometimes the hardest part of a job is accepting the facts, and the developing the inertia to get started.

4. 
   DougG | Oct 30, 2002 07:07pm | #11

   "Sometimes the hardest part of a job is accepting the facts"

   Truth in action,

   Onward and upward,

   Thanks!

5. 
   Scooter1 | Oct 30, 2002 11:14pm | #13

   There are few f u c k ups more expensive than a leaking shower. Get a friggin plumber and replace the drain. While your at it, toss the cheap pvc Oatley model you have and replace it with a cast iron instaset. You'd need a football player and a slege hammer and 10 minutes to break that thing.

   You can replace it from above. Take out the membrane, remove the drain either by unscrewing it from the deck or sawzalling the rascal, just get it out. Time estimate: about 30 minutes.

   Replace with an Instaset Drain. Time estimate 30 minutes.

   Refloat the pre-slope. Time estimate about an hour.

   Replace the membrane. Time estimate about 20 minutes

   I don't want to dump on you, but I don't like your bench, either, and I'd either shore it up or tear it out. It will leak. My design is simple concrete block INSIDE the pan, sealed at the junction with the CBU with Laticrete 9235. No nail holes whatsoever. To further bullet proof the shower, apply the stuff on all the walls. I don't like wood inside a shower pan. Period. If you insist upon wood inside the pan, then 9235 it from top to bottom and use both the latex and the fabric, 2 coats of the latex at least.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927

6. 
   DougG | Nov 01, 2002 03:52am | #14

   Boris, I would prefer not to have the seat/deck done that way as well, but the options were few. The motor for the whirlpool tub to the left of the picture interferes with redesign of the deck. It could be done of course, but I had to draw a line somewhere. This repair is already too much remodel. If I fixed everything, I would have to get a new lot, this time with trees. Oh well! perhaps the next house.

   As to the drain problem, it is now fixed the right way. Thanks all for the advice.

   In theory there's no difference between theory and practice . . .       In practice there is.

   Edited 10/31/2002 8:53:37 PM ET by Doug

2. 
   fredsmart48 | Oct 30, 2002 04:42pm | #6

   why don’t you drill out the bolt and use a easy out back the bolt out. if that don’t work drill it out one size bigger and use a thread insert they are called helicoil you can them at automotive parts store.

   you should be able to do that from the top. 

1. 
   DougG | Oct 30, 2002 06:24pm | #8

   Good idea fredsmart, but I had already thought of and tried that. This is what happened.

   I tried to extract the bolt, but the brass insert in the plastic began to spin.

   Plan 'B' was to drill out a larger hole. As I was doing that, I noticed the plastic around the insert was melting.

   Sooooo, I think to myself -- ah hah! The melted plastic will set and keep the insert from spinning. I tried to back it out again and it held, but so well that I broke off the extractor.

   Drilling is now not possible with my equipment. The hole is plugged with the stub end of a brittle and very hard bolt extractor.

   That is when I decided to look for a sealing method.

   Like I said, the first installer is not the only one who has messed up on this project.

1. 
   john31136 | Oct 30, 2002 06:42pm | #9

   Try using a quality small tipped punch to break the very brittle extractor apart one small peice at a time.  I have done this several times.  If you remove the extractor and install a new one try adding a drop of penetrting oil onto the threads after it backs out slightly, then turn it back in to work the oil into the threads then try to back it out slowly.  You will need to repeat the procedure several times and don't use too much force or you will break it again.  Hope this helps.

1. 
   DougG | Oct 30, 2002 07:16pm | #12

   I would be afraid that hitting the extractor hard enough to break it would also break the plastic around the insert. That would not be good. Except that then I would have no choice but to accept the facts as suggested by Frankie below.

   Time to stop thinking and start doing.

   Thanks