Replies

1. 
   brownbagg | Apr 13, 2005 12:20am | #1

   last night we had a very bad lightin storm. I unplug the computer but fail to disconnect a tv. Lightin hit the house and pop the AFCI that the TV was plug in to. TV still works. Its worth my money.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 13, 2005 12:42am | #2

   No real cause and affect here.

2. 
   pm22 | Apr 13, 2005 03:32am | #3

   [First draft]

   Problems with AFCIs

   1] On of the best marketing ploys of all time is to get a law passed requiring people to buy your product. Think bribery or trickery [more likely in this case]. Who can argue with a claim of safety?

   2] Compare this with seatbelts. Seatbelts were invented by some Swiss guy. Some automakers installed them in their luxury models. After a couple of years of use, statistics started showing a significant difference in fatalities/severity of injuries between cars equipped with seatbelts vs. those which did not. More seatbelts got installed. Only then did laws get passed requiring them. AFCIs did not follow this pattern. Someone just made a good pitch to some NEC code making panel and suddenly they were law without any proven track record.

   3] They do not [currently] protect aganst series faults. They only protect against parallel faults.

   4] They have a built in ground fault detector [30 milliamps] which accounts for an unknown percentage of their protection.

   5] There was a massive recall of Square D AFCIs.

   6] A regular breaker costs ~$4. A GFCI costs ~$8. An AFCI costs ~$30.
   Note: I am not about to get entangled in a debate on placing a cost on a human or feline life. A budget is not infinite. I would prefer to see the extra money spent on more effective measures such as installing extra receptacles and circuits to eliminate overloading. Also eliminate "backstab" receptacles.

   7] Older electrical systems are grandfathered in. AFCIs are thus only required on new, modern, up to date, code compliant installations which should not have arc fault problems anyway. They are not required on knob and tube wiring.

   8] Mike Holt was bamboozled by the demonstration as outlined in his Monday, Dec. 9, 2002 newsletter. In the test, the AFCI protected receptacle heated to such an extent that it was glowing and the plastic melting before the AFCI tripped. The comparison regular breaker didn't trip. Neither sounds good in this situation.

   9] They don't protect anything plugged in; just the built in wiring.

   ~Peter

1. 
   djj | Apr 13, 2005 06:24am | #7

   Our electrical inspector was at our site recently for the service inspection. While there he told me that we are going to have to wire the home theater over the garage with AFCIs since it could be used as a bedroom 'someday'. He then told that they have been having problems with the AFCIs tripping from some newer vacuum cleaners and that the Lutron stuff I was installing would probably trip them too.

   Then as he was walking out of the room he said '...of course if someone pulls out the arc fault breakers and replaces them with regular ones as soon as I sign off on the final inspection, I would never know...' wink wink nudge nudge, say no more eh

   Dennis

1. 
   pm22 | Apr 13, 2005 07:34am | #8

   Not to worry. The relevant section in the NEC is 210-12 [1999 ed.]

   It says "All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter(s)." Now if you go to 220-2 (a), it says "...nominal system voltages of 120, 120/240, 208Y/120, 240....shall be used." Since the bedroom would be on a nominally 120 volt circuit and the stupid AFCI requirement obviously applies to only 125 volt circuits, you don't have to use them.

   Furthermore, the inspector has no right to go into a "what if" mode. Sometimes walk-in closets, porches and home offices may end up becoming bedrooms, but he can only operate with what is stated on the plans. Sometimes what is claimed to be a "home office" on the plans may be a third bedroom in the other five identical -- but different shades of tan -- houses down the row, in this case there may be extra receptacles and data lines which should distinguish it from a bedroom.

   ~Peter

1. 
   4Lorn1 | Apr 13, 2005 09:11am | #9

   Around here any room that can be seen as reasonable to use as a bedroom has to be wired and counted, important for septic tank sizing, as a bedroom. Size, shape and proximity to a bathroom are their guide. What they are labeled as on the plans has little to do with it. A lot of people have tried to appeal this but most fail. Most electricians in this area just wire any suitable room as a bedroom, install appropriate smoke detectors and put everything on an AFCI. No big deal. Most electrical contractors have been burned a few times when the HO insist that this or that room are not bedrooms and then the contractor has to eat an AFCI or two when the inspector doesn't see it that way. Most seem to just assume anything that looks like a bedroom will need to be on an AFCI, need an extra smoke detector, possibly a CO detector if the AHJ has a requirement and bid it as such.The difference in cost, assuming your wiring it new and not trying to play catch up after you get caught, is minimal. A few hundred dollars at most. Particularly since this was covered in the bid it is hardly worth fighting over unless you just like getting into a pissing match for the entertainment value. Of course when the call is over an extra bedroom and your talking about a 400 unit apartment complex the finer points become more important but in such cases an architect has cast the plans in concrete, the building department made the call months before ground was broken and everything was ironed out. Mostly it works that way with such disputes being much more common to single family custom homes than large projects.

1. 
   stormando | Apr 18, 2005 04:59pm | #10

   I'm sorry - I am still not getting it! Am I in another country? Here in seattle area a median price home is approaching $300K. This means an old 1950's pc. of crap 3 bedroom house with old wiring and needs other work as well. The house I re-wired that started this whole discussion about AFCI's was for my wifes family to move into because they can't afford a decent house anyway. I'm "shocked" at how casual everyone is about a "few hundred here and a few hundred there". There are ZERO discounts from insurance companies for having new service panel (their first question about a house is always "it doesn't have knob & tube or fuses does it?")NO discounts for AC smoke alarms powered by AFCI, NO discounts for GFCI. But I gaurantee that if there is a fire death due to an AFCI breaker craping out when those smoke alarms are needed they will be suing the shi... out of the "big D".
   Comparissons to old timers bitching about GFCI's etc. Seatbelts and helmets are bogus. All those things can be seen with my own eyes to work and statistically verified. What statistics show that AFCI's work at all and under what teeny set of circumstances. Seems I'm not the only idiot out there causing showers of welding sparks with various power tools trying to make a real world test on one of these things.
   The space shuttle is an extremely complex technological invention that works 99.99999% of the time under an extrememly limitied quantifiable set of circumstances but it's not very practicle or cost effective for the average homeowner.
   Statistically everyone should be wearing a helmet of some sort at all times and not smoking either.
   I do my own work on houses out of necesity and regulations are making it harder and harder to be able to do my own work. Under Ideal conditions professional trades people will build a much better house than I ever could in half as much time.
   In reality maybee half will do a better job than myself.
   It's not about the AFCI - it's about a few dollars for this that and other that soon adds up to unafordable housing.
   Yes old timers might be resistant to change etc. but they also had a lot of common sense. Maybe when you work on a dock you should just NOT stand in the water?!
   OK I'll try and drop this now and continue to do most of my stuff sans permits ' cause there's no insurance discounts for following the rules!

2. 
   DanH | Apr 18, 2005 05:34pm | #11

   I can remember when smoke detectors first started being required. Probably 75% were disabled within weeks because they gave false alarms from cooking, showers, smoking, even spray deodorant. AHJs got all sorts of grief for trying to enforce requirements to have them. I wasn't quite in the loop enough to know how things went down with GFCIs, but I suspect it was similar. However, as a teen I can remember A LOT of grousing about how ugly 3-prong outlets were, how stupid, etc. (And I can remember a lot of the early 3-prong tools with the 3rd prong cut off.)All of these things go through a rocky start.I find it reasonably reassuring that the NEC folks are responsible primarily to the fire departments and insurance people, vs many standards groups that are controlled by industry. Certainly they can be influenced by industry, but much less than many other standards groups.

3. 
   stormando | Apr 18, 2005 06:11pm | #12

   Sorry - But again I find comparrisons apples & oranges. Those items started & remain reasonably priced. (forget about people too stupid to burn their food and then not turn alarm back on after incedent is over) You have a choice to buy $50 smoke alarms that possibly mitigates those issues but also available is the inexpensive time honored basic smoke detector for about $11 retail.
   You do NOT have a choice about AFCI's.
   Insurance companies are notorious for weasiling out of any and all claims by anyone against them while constantly raising your rates and canceling you when you actually do get money from them. Again - there are NO discounts for Modern Wiring, GFCI's, Smoke detectors, AFCI's.
   They also offer NO discounts for having security systems! Unbeleivable! Insurance companies and any group associated with them would be the last ones I would trust with anything!
   IF electrical manufacturers have so much technilogical know how and money to research this stuff than I have to think that all these "advancements" "safety features" whatever you want to call them could and should be incorporated into a little black box inside the service panel itself and would constantly analyze, detect and fix any and all electrical problems associated with said equipment including the 240 volt oven circuit. Do you turn off the 120 volt clock on your oven when you go to sleep. Why couldn't it "arc out and cause a fire"?
   Do you not think it would make more sense to control all these things on every circuit at the box.
   But that wouldn't sell many ($32 retail) code mandated individual breakers would it!
   You can choose to buy and drive a Volvo wagon IF you beleive it is the safest vehicle for you. Would you pack your stuff into one of those and show up on the job site if the law said you must?

4. 
   DanH | Apr 18, 2005 06:16pm | #13

   The early GFCIs were $50-100 (and that's back when $50 would buy more than a cup of coffee at Starbucks). The early smoke detectors weren't quite so pricy, but weren't cheap.They didn't start cheap -- the price has come down over time. Basically, volume and manufacturing experience (ie, time) lead to lower-cost products.

5. 
   BillHartmann | Apr 18, 2005 08:11pm | #14

   My house was built in 79. One circuit for 2 1/2 baths, but outside recpts. Suppose to have a GFCI breaker, but none was installed when I moved in. Might have been one during inspections, but inspections (by the local FPD) where not very detailed anyway.The only thing that I know that they complainded about was that they wanted a relief hole drilled in the trim plate over the fireplace gas valve so that if there was an internal leak that gas would not built up.However, this is in rough cut, ramdon, semi-dry laid, stone. There are large gaps all around it.

6. 
   DanH | Apr 19, 2005 12:27am | #15

   My house was built in 76. Single GFCI breaker for two baths and single outside outlet. That was code then, and the GFCI outlets didn't become price-competitive for another year or two.

7. 
   4Lorn1 | Apr 19, 2005 03:14am | #16

   Your welcome to rant away against rules, regulations and AFCIs in particular. Kind of entertaining actually.But if you want to have some effect find out who approves the codes in your jurisdiction. Write, call, and attend meetings and rant away. These folks are most likely elected and playing with your money so, to some extent, they have to let you do your song and dance. Push them to exclude those articles of the NEC that demand the use of AFCIs. Have them reject the NEC as a whole if you wish. Demand that they not enforce any rules on using AFCIs. You could start a movement and develop a constituency. Move up to the state level and change the law to demand that house with GFIs and smoke detectors be given a discount. Presently insurance companies just charge more for those without in some areas. From what I have been told they go by what year the inspectors checked and the approved code for that jurisdiction at the time. Of course insurance companies real purpose for existence is not keeping people safe or paying people who suffer a loss. They do as little of this as possible because it costs money and cut profits. They are there to make money and protects their interests. Everything else is secondary. Pretty much explains why they offer few discounts. So, if they give a 10% discount, expect them to raise their rates 12% or more. Got to make up for the costs of the extra paper work and toss in an extra 1% of profit just because they can.

8. 
   junkhound | Apr 19, 2005 04:08am | #17

   4LORN: Great post.

   Thanks for rejoiner.  I'll need to take the effort ( as you know , very great) to find out when, where, etc, the hearings are going on.

   As you likely know, the major part of the effort is finding the where and when, those buggers that like to impose this crap are like to hide this stuff.

   If anyone can post any website for NEC etc meeting agenda/schedule committee mettings it would be appreciated. .

9. 
   stormando | Apr 19, 2005 06:02am | #18

   Actually I had already sent a letter regarding the matter to head inspector in Olympia WA and I will be suprised if I ever hear anything.
   I also filed a complaint with CPSC about the matter.Your absolutley right that I'm just ranting. I haven't read one post though that offers anything to show that they work! The other example items brought up all WORK that is the fundimental difference!Maybe the building deptments elswhere are reasonable. Here in Seattle, King County WA govnmt is out of control and I'm certainly not the only one who thinks so. Is there any counties in your state that half the people in it are threatening to cecede and create their own seperate county? Again - NOT making that up. The AFCI is just one of many ludicrous regulations that drive up the cost of housing and create an atmosphere that just causes people to choose not to comply with laws. I recently bought an in city property and immediatly cut down 2 large alder trees and a large cottonwood tree (Illeagal) because god forbid some nutjob finds one of these trees or a catail on your property and now it's considered a "wetland"
   Now your looking at hiring a biologist to study your property and decide what if anything you can do with it. Why would anyone take the risk? The attitude hear is mow it, cut it, hide it and bury it in middle of the night before someone decides it needs a "SEPA" review.Single building lot homeowners here have to worry about 100' setbacks from tiny creeks that don't even run all year while deep pocket developers make deals that somehow allow hundreds of appts. within 20 feet of year round fish bearing streams. If no one speaks up about this crap they just keep piling it on!

10. 
    DanH | Apr 20, 2005 03:24am | #19

    Maybe you should run for office.

3. 
   MSA1 | Apr 13, 2005 04:54am | #4

   They work, my old man was helping me with a job and he had left one elec. box unfinished(the romex was there but it wanst stripped back). I energized the bedroom circuit and the breaker tripped immediately. The wires were not touching, only close to one another.

   AFCI's detect "arc's" or current flowing through the air.

   I disagree that there worthless. I'm not sure if they're really necessary though.

1. 
   Don | Apr 13, 2005 05:05am | #5

   I have AFCI's in my new house. Only problem I have had is that one of them popped when a light bulb burned out! Face it, a breaking filament at 110 V can produce an arc. But it's downright dangerous to lose every light in the ckt just because one burned out.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!

1. 
   MSA1 | Apr 13, 2005 05:12am | #6

   I agree with you, I would not be happy having to run to the basement everytime a bulb popped, but you are just reinforcing my post. They work(arc detected), but i'm not saying I feel they're really necessary.