I’ve got a submersible well pump system. Last night, both toilets started gurgling/burping air into the tank while refilling. I’m not seeing any air from the faucets or shower. The pump seems to be cycling normally. I haven’t noticed any unusual odors from the water.
Any ideas?
Dave
Replies
Give your toilets some pepto bismol.
Always works for me....
For the rest of the time that you're given
Why walk when you can fly
quittintime
Now why didn't I think of that?
My folks had something like this happen. I'm no plumber, or expert on wells, but this is what I understand happened:
The sumbmersible pump had a foot valve built into it. (40' well) Dad also plumbed a foot valve inside the house, just before the water got to the expansion tank.
Eventually the pipe from the house to the well started leaking. So when the pump shut off the water would leak out. The foot valve inside would prevent any water pressure from reversing back into the outside pipe. But as the water dripped out of the pipe, air would get in somehow.
Then the pump would kick back on and the pump would force a batch of air into the system.
That may be a long shot, and I may not have the details correct. But that's what I think was happening.
You know when you're sitting on a chair and you lean back so you're just on two legs, then you lean too far and you almost fall over but at the last second you catch yourself? I feel like that all the time.
That seems possible. Now if I can figure a way to test for it...
Dave
Could your well water level be getting low, take longer to refill and so the pump is pumping water and air at times?
Some wells here, where we have been in a record breaking drought for six years now, are doing something like yours. They are not keeping the same level of water they used to, according to how hard they are used.
Edited 3/30/2004 2:27 pm ET by Ruby
That was my first thought, but I doubt it, because the last year or so has been pretty wet. Also, the symptoms first showed up about 14 hours after the last water use of the day. It could be that a neighbor is pumping the water level down.
IIRC, according to the records that came with the house, the well is 170' deep, static water level was 60', and the pump is at 120'. Hopefully, if the pump is sucking wind, I can lower it. I really don't want to be drilling a new well right now.
I'll see how it acts tonight.
See Luka's thread about collecting rainwater off the roof.
My last house had a gravity fed spring water system. The storage tank was about 85 feet higher than the house. It had it's quirks, but I loved the constant pressure and electricity independence.
I am planning a backup water supply system, but I'll be doing well to get it going by fall.
Dave
"the well is 170' deep, static water level was 60', and the pump is at 120'."
All,
Any reason to have a well 50' higher than it was drilled? Seems like a lot.
Jon
That extra 50 feet of pipe is heavy!
So the auquifer can be drawn down for a long time before you have to drill deeper?
Mineral and sediment setteling... Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
"Mineral and sediment setteling..."
IMERC,
My point was, 50' seemed excessive. I think my well was about 10' from the bottom, and when I replaced it the past summer I raised it about 4' (so 14' total off the bottom).
More details, my well appears to be something like 120' deep. and you hit water at 50'. At least you do in July after a dry spell.
Jon
My well is 540' static duting wet times is about 15' and the pump sets at 400'.
I'm trying not to pump any thing on the upwelling. Two years ago I had to drop the pump and got sludge. Static then was 525'. Water was a tuff item to come by.Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Around here, when a well starts pumping sludge/sand, we pull it and clean the bottom up with a pipe that catches the sediment/sand and then put the pump/pipe back in.
We do that an average of every ten years or so, each well being very different than any other about this.
Our Ogallala water is about 200' to 300' deep, Santa Rosa beds about 80', individual veins can be 10' to 40' and that is what both wells at the house are.
First thing we check when anything seems off with the water is the air in the pressure tank. Sometimes the diafragm get's low and lets the pump cycle too much.
If that is the problem, airing that back up while water is running out, pump shut, brings it back to normal working conditions.
That sluge problem was when we were ate up with drought and I had to keep lowering the pump to get water and hit bottom.Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
I was wondering about that. What pressure do you set it to?
Dave
From the sounds of it, if the pressure tank is involved int he problem....it would be because it's become air-logged......not water-logged.
Single compartment tank or bladder tank?
If bladder tank (and that bladder isn't punctured)and it's air-logged, it would likely mean that your well is definitely pumping air.....for some reason. How long have you lived here and has this problem occurred before?
If single compartment tank, your well may well be pumping some air but you can resolve the air-logged problem by installing a deep-well air release control. That device won't work on a bladder tank, just on a single compartment. (unless your bladder is punctured)
It might be that you have a leak in the well delivery line allowing air to be venturi-ed into the water as it's filling the tank. If you've lived here for some time and this problem hasn't occurred before and the well isn't getting pumped down low-ish.....then that's the first thing I'd go looking for............a leak in the supply line. It wouldn't make good sense to install an air-release in an attempt to circumvent a problem that will only get worse and then need/demand remedy at that time.
If you have a bladder tank your pre-charge pressure should be set two pounds lower than the kick-in on the pressure regulator. YOu have to compleely drain the tank to check the pre-charge and adjust it if necessary. Don't forget to turn off the pump.
If single compartment tank......turn off pump.......drain tank completely. Turn pump on and allow to refill. Air to water ratio will be pretty close to ideal.
http://www.bradyproducts.com/products.htm#air
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I know for shallow wells there used to be a "air volume control" on the old non-bladder tanks to feed air into the system. Is it possible that the system in question has something like that and it's malfunctioning?
You're right about that device, but I'm gonna say I doubt that's the source of the problem. IME when these malfunction, they'll leak water and fail to add the needed air.
Here's a little info on how they function. Be patient cause this takes a minute to load.
http://www.peekspump.com/tanks.htm
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thanks for all the info.
Ruby, if the well has to be opened, I will definitely have the water tested.
Goldhiller, I'll check out those sites as soon as I can. The tank does have a bladder. We've lived here for about 8 months, and the place was only occaisionally occupied for several years prior to that, so we don't have much history to go on.
Of course, everything seems to be back to normal at the moment. I don't imagine it will stay that way, though. I'll be saving this thread for the time that the problem returns.
Again, thanks to all.
Dave
Edited 4/1/2004 8:13 am ET by DTOLLEFSON
Can't see things from here, but it may be that a bladder type tank was installed just prior to you buying the place and that bladder tank is inappropriate for your particular well system. Not all well systems can accomodate a bladder tank and you just have to run a single compartment tank with the appropriate air to water device installed.
Any system that injects a bit of air along with the water each time it cycles (many systems do this) would be an example of a system that can't really use a bladder tank. Sooner or later, depending upon how much air is delivered per cycle, the bladder would become air-logged and that air will be expelled into your house lines instead of water. If it's just a tiny amount of air, it would take a long time before a problem evidenced itself; if alot of air each time, constant annoyance.
There's all manner of reasons that what you describe could have occurred. For example, perhaps the well got pumped down far enough for a small leak in the supply line to become exposed to the air in the casing and then for a short time some air was allowed to venturi along with the water when it was pumping. Water level rises in the wsell casing later and the leak now can't get a hold of any air.
Time will tell, I guess. If you're lucky this will be a one time occurrence.
Here's another link that you may find interesting/educational, if not helpful.
http://www.peekspump.com/dwspt.htm
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thanks. You've given me a lot of good information. I still haven't had time to check out the links, but I will. I expect the problem will come back sooner or later. When it does, I hope to be knowledgeable enough to at least do some basic diagnosis. You've given me a head start at it.
Dave
We set our wells at 40PSI max, cycling back on at 20 at the tank.
The lines that go several miles to stock tanks go down in canyons and get a head pressure of 120PSI that we regulate back down to 40 before getting to any tank fittings.
If you have a hole in the pipes going into the well, you will be losing water and the pump would be overworking.
Best to spend a little and have a local well man look at the whole system, pull the well if he thinks it needs it and start with new records.
Being a house well, it is important to have it tested, after working on it this first time, to be sure it was clean and you didn't introduce any contaminants that may make you sick.
Around here, state law, the well service men have to keep records of all work on any well.
If you can find who worked on it before, maybe he can tell you what all was done and when and how to proceed.
Our well man has records since 1917, from his father, that drilled and serviced the wells here since then. We do our own basic work but know when to call them for the more touchy stuff. Don't want to mess a good well up and lose it by missing something important.
Edited 3/31/2004 3:58 pm ET by Ruby
I thought it was kind of strange, too. I wouldn't be surprised if it has been lowered since the original installation, but there's no record of it.
Dave
I'd be checking your pressure tank. Methinks you are developing a waterlogged tank...
That would be an easy fix. Can you tell me how to check it?
Thanks, Dave
You should check (by phone) with a local well guy or plumber due to local/regional variations. But I'm familier with the type having a tire stem sticking out near the top. By putting your air gauge to it, the pressure reading was the issue. Mine needed to be at 40lbs. Is there a label on it to identify this pressure on yours?
I'll look. 40 psi sounds about right, given the pressure switch settings. Thanks.
Dave
Boss Hog probably has it right. There is a check valve in the pump and sometimes there is one is in the line (like in mine, where the well is down in a canyon from the house).
While your shower and faucets may not be blowing air, I suspect they soon will be.
pitless adapter might have a leak(bad O-Ring) happend to me.
mark