My son is having probs. w/ polynomials. any suggestions out there? He says his teacher says that she doesnt have any idea when they will use them, unless they teach math. Well……if only math teachers use it…..why have it? I think it goes beyond that.
any suggestions where can get him help? He says he has tried school tutors, and the net.
Discover a concrete-free foundation option that doesn't require any digging.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Maybe find a cute, smart girl in his grade who understand them?
(-:
Both my Sons are having trouble with their math teacher. But there's another math teacher at the school who is much more helpful - So they go to him for help instead.
thanks, boss.....workin on it. But>>>>>>> i am his dad.....dont know squat. (truly dont abt. polynoms)
For whatever it's worth...I discovered, while taking Remedial Math at 35, that I need to write down every example shown on the board, etc., while it's being explained, or it doesn't pass the eyeball/brain barrier...different people have different ways of learning, & for me, the motor skills are a vital link when it comes to numbers.
Too bad it took me so long to discover that, but better late than never. Your son has my total sympathy!
quit typing so fast...i'm having a hard time getting it all down...
..now what did you say after the eyeball brain terrier? is that what kind of dog you have???
...I feel your pain.knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
http://www.cobrajem.com
Um...that was eyeball/brain BARRIER (quess you forgot yours was on...)The terriers are another thread!
All the threads I read on this page about people falling off of roofs, ladders, and everywhere else and NOBODY mentioned the formuls h=-9.8t (squared)-ht+vt, the standard falling object formula?????
If that's not an important ploynomial formula, I don't know what is. Of course, the initial height has huge implications . . . . .
Let me dig around a bit- I'll see if I can find some resources. (I teach Alg I and Alg II- and yes I majored in math)
I didn't see boss but I know all of his load calcs cannot be linear.
I'll be sure to think of that next time I fall ... if I have time. :)
If you fall far enough (like, step out of a plane with a parachute) you'll reach a terminal velocity. Can't recall the equation for that one, I think it's logarithmic. But it's comforting to know a person can only hit the ground so hard.
Joe Bartok
Edited 3/15/2006 5:07 pm ET by JoeBartok
My oldest boy is in the 6th grade, & needed help with his geometry homework.
My wife the certified bean counter immediately directs him to me, since my job requires me to live & breathe geometry.
So I put all my short-cuts I have learned over the years away & went to the basics, so I wouldn't confuse him.
He still gave me that fish eye look.
So I thought I would use his mathbook to show him the formula I was talking about.
NO JOKE there was no formulas in his book.
I attended a forum with the school district that covered how they teach math.
They don't use algorithms anymore.
Their excuse was that it "limited a students creativity".
I was completely dumbfounded.
I have no problem with teaching outside the box----BUT---- if they don't know what a box looks like how do they know they are outside of it.
After having my questions ignored or redirected I confronted the guy who was in charge of math curriculum.
I had a piece of 6" copper in my pocket that was about 1" long------ why it was in my pocket is a long story.
I told the guy that water comes into my building in this pipe @ 110psi
My boilers are on the 42nd floor 485' above where the water comes in
I need 70psi @ the boilers
I told him water weighs 8.33lbs per gallon
I told him there is 7.5 gallons in 1 cubic foot
I asked him how much do I need to increase the water pressure to obtain 70psi on the 42nd floor.
He told me that I "didn't give him enough info"
I told him I gave him all the info he needed to figure it out, & more info than that of the textbooks give the kids.
I was asked to leave the meeting.
I'd toss you out too, unless you asked that with a smile on your face.
blue
This sums it up........email from last week
Sad, but true...Math 1950-2005Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there and cried. Why do I tell you this?Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:1. Teaching Math In 1950A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?2. Teaching Math In 1960A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?3. Teaching Math In 1970A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?4. Teaching Math In 1980A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.5. Teaching Math In 1990A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers.)6. Teaching Math In 2005Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80.
LOL
I'm gonna post that one on the man-lift on the job site."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
thanks...I needed that!knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
http://www.cobrajem.com
Nowadays high school schedules are something like the following:Algebra 9th gradeGeometry 10th gradeAlgebra II - 11th gradePre-Calculus - 12th gradeAlg 1 and Geometry are required for graduation. Alg 2 and Pre-Calc are not.When my daughter took all of the above courses she struggled and at times got help from an older student who had already completed Algebra II.Could your son or daughter get some help from another student at the school?Good luck!.^^^^^^Find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life.
Correction:Algebra I - 8th gradeGeometry - 9th Alg II - 10th Trigonometry - 11th Pre-Calc - 12th^^^^^^
That made me laugh out loud Boats! Thanks.
blue
Good question. I do oilfield work. I'd bring a couple of different sizes of pipe. Ask what size of pipe is required to provide enough pressure. If no one can answer, ask if the copper pipe is the problem. What difference would a switch to steel or plastic make? Math is the key to success in my industry. You don't have to have a formal background in academics but you have to respect the numbers and the method that they are created.
If I were to answer you're question, I'd convert a couple of the numbers into metric and solve. The question was a hydrostatic pressure question.
I confronted the guy who was in charge of math curriculum
You may have made flawed assumption.
He's probably in charge because of his skill with curricula.
You might have gotten an impression he had math skills.
You've probably now crushed his self-esteem, he'll never "grow" into a cushy, high-paying administration job in the District.
These sorts of misunderstanding occurs often, I find. I find I make it very often after hearing "curiculum" pluralized as "curiculums" (or, horror, o horror; "curiculumnes"--yes, that one was from the English Grammer <sic> & Spelling Curiculumnes Coordninator . . . )
By the way, your example there is an excelent "working" examole of a polynomial equation. Of course plumbing is rife with them, too. Pipe size and fixture units and lift columns, etc. all make decent polynomials.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
LOL
uh oh I might have disrupted his creativity.
This one cracks me up------- I actually work with some plumbers who think that a larger pipe produces more psi."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
I actually work with some plumbers who think that a larger pipe produces more psi
BUt they feel "really good" about that, don't they?
I've heard a similar thing about rifle sites, you should always use the maximum elevation--your AK will shoot 'harder' to toss those bullets farther doncha know . . .
I remember a sad day trying to get a person to believe why I was concerned about a vertical pipe. That dumb ol' "water tank" doan matter, this's a skinny l'll ol' pipe, not a tank of water. Once I realized I was trying to teach aviation ground school i na sty, I bumped up enough pay grades until somebody else signed off on it. Oh well, that wasn't my best day, but when it sprang a huge leak, it wasn't going to be in my house . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I didn't like math 'till i had a family friend start going through it with me - then it became like exercise, and I enjoyed stretching myself.Algebra in particular is supposed to teach you how to think logically - after reading some of the arguments on this site, you can see that some people must've skipped that class.
The first day of calculus my professor puts up a chart on the overhead, it outlined the pay rates of people that had upperlevel math courses compared to those that didn't.
The more upperlevel courses, the more money you made. That sunk in!
Math helps you to think analytically, very important in many jobs, even if you don't use the math directly.
Good friend of mine from college always liked working on cars. He always comments on his ability to overhaul a carburetor or evaluate engine problems because of his ability to think analytically.
You need math, all flavors of it.
Doug
Great post.I had a few meetings like that when my kids were in school. I ended up pretty thoroughly disgusted with the state of public education. I also ended up issuing some directives to some teachers and administrators that I was able to enforce. It's surprising how much leverage parents can have when they get involved. Bureaucrats and LIFO civil servants will do a lot to not have their boat rocked.As I think you and I would agree, the world is full of kids who don't listen, but they do watch, and they are very sensitive to our implicit expectations for them. They also learn to respect others and themselves by the amount of respect that they are shown. (Not this esteem-building nonsense, but authentic respect). Given what we expose them to in the public schools, the real question is not "Why are the kids having trouble?", rather we should be amazed by how well most of them are doing.The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
As I think you and I would agree, the world is full of kids who don't listen,
I taught HS Earth Sciences. Essentially it is a 9th grade class that exposes kids a couple areas of the sciences. Sort of like a physics/Chemistry class.
We were going over Hypothesis and Scientific testing and recording results etc.
One of the "questions for discussion" in the book was something like "All testing results in exact science?" or something.
About 3 of the 35 kids were listening to us talk about this question(most were drinking the kool aid we made and were distracted). I mentioned briefly that test results need to be duplicated however to be proven, and that sometimes results could be skewed by accident or even purposely.
I figured when we had our quiz I would ask this question.
Quiz day comes and I ask this question verbatim.
Wouldn't you know it but like 75% of the kids answered ---"No. Because people could lie and cheat the results" While that wasn't fully what we talked about, it was mentioned.
Amazing little critters kids are.
As for the math, practice, practice, practice the problems in the book as a previous poster suggested. Do more than the assigned problems, unless the child has a disability it will click........eventually.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWPD
Edited 3/15/2006 1:41 pm ET by Sailfish
"I have no problem with teaching outside the box----BUT---- if they don't know what a box looks like how do they know they are outside of it."
That should be quote of the day. Kinda says it all about modern "education".
"...had a piece of 6" copper in my pocket that was about 1" long------ why it was in my pocket is a long story"
So many possible jokes, I can't even take the bait.
You mean like: "is that a copper pipe in your pocket?""With every mistake we must surely be learning"
The guy is absolutely correct. You didn't give him the flow, nor the piping details.
If you have zero flow, you get one answer. If you try to push 5,000 GPM through that pipe and you have 534 small radius elbows on the way to the boilers, you may need a couple extra psi....:)
Careful pointing fingers. You may find out the fingers are pointing back at you.
DG/Builder
You didn't give him the flow, nor the piping details.
I took it to mean negligible flow. With negligible flow, piping details also irrelevant.
Boiler makeup water for boilers on the 40 something floor, no? (but wasn't it some huge pipe diameter? maybe that doesn't make sense -- maybe it was sprinkler so flow is relevant?).
I'm not sure that was really the point, anyway.
But, we can all act all pizzed and kick him out of the room too. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
You didn't give him the flow, nor the piping details.
I took it to mean negligible flow. With negligible flow, piping details also irrelevant.
Boiler makeup water for boilers on the 40 something floor, no? (but wasn't it some huge pipe diameter? maybe that doesn't make sense -- maybe it was sprinkler so flow is relevant?).
I'm not sure that was really the point, anyway.
You got it! You don't need 6" pipe for negligible flow.
The point is this: he was being an azz and rightfully got asked to leave. And he was WRONG and said STUPID things on top of being an azz. That is a bad example to set for one's kids.
DG/builder
>>"You got it! You don't need 6" pipe for negligible flow."
Somebody's always a step or two ahead of me. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
dgbldr,
Go put your pointy hat on and sit in the corner.
The answer to the question given the variables is ---170.419psig added to the initial 110psig at the base of the column to get 70psig 485' up in room 4201 so my girl can take a hot shower
<<I asked him how much do I need to increase the water pressure to obtain 70psi on the 42nd floor>>
This was a static problem not dynamic. No other variables need to be introduced...laminar flow, increase in sp. gravity due to fluoride treatments etc.
Now if you need a ride home Gunner's got a short yellow bus going by the school to pick you up.
<<I asked him how much do I need to increase the water pressure to obtain 70psi on the 42nd floor>>
This was a static problem not dynamic. No other variables need to be introduced...laminar flow, increase in sp. gravity due to fluoride treatments etc.
You and plumbbill seem to have an overwhelming need to show that you can push buttons on a calculator. Not to worry, you will both outgrow it by the time you turn 11. In the meantime, here are a few pointers on real life plumbing:
Lesson 1. 6" water pipe is never used to provide static pressure. Except in plumbbill's pocket, where it apparently produced TOO MUCH static pressure, which can be painful.
Lesson 2. Boilers need real water to operate, not a source of static pressure. Even if they are on the 42nd floor.
Lesson 3. When you want to pose a non-realistic problem for discussion purposes, you say "assume zero flow" or such language as to indicate that you are asking for an artificial assumption, as opposed to talking out of your discharge side.
Lesson 4. Your girl in room 4201 will have difficulty taking a shower (hot or otherwise) using only static pressure and no flow.
DG/Builder
Edited 3/16/2006 1:07 am ET by dgbldr
JEEEZ dgbldr, if you don't know the answer it's ok, I'll find a tutor for ya.
It was a simple story problem-- no one's trying to find the square root of purple.
You must work for FEMA or the Corps of Engineers-- never enough information supplied to answer a question--- always answering a question with another question does'nt make you look smarter.
How does one of your job meetings go?
dgbldr-" at this point in time, within the usual parameters, allowing for the normal fluctuations and unpredictable variables........... and subject to a reassessment in a different time frame - answer-wise, I'd have to answer your question with a guarded maybe.....And based on present information, odds are good that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about."
<<You and plumbbill seem to have an overwhelming need to show that you can push buttons on a calculator. Not to worry, you will both outgrow it by the time you turn 11. In the meantime, here are a few pointers on real life plumbing:>>
Now there you hit the nail on the head-- cept I haven't outgrown it-- I may be getting older but I'm still real immature.
Now put that pointy hat back on and get back in the corner....maybe a little later I'll send one of the girls over with a nice slice of quiche for ya.
Where would the UNIbomber have been without math?
Just another crazy man living up in the hills.
Sorry Luka, no offence
Doug
You must work for FEMA or the Corps of Engineers...
We're all duly impressed with your astonishing ability to figure the weight of a water column. Now have your dad read you the whole post before you have him type the answer. My occupation was stated on the signature line.
DG/Builder
You must work for FEMA or the Corps of Engineers...
We're all duly impressed with your astonishing ability to figure the weight of a water column. Now have your dad read you the whole post before you have him type the answer. My occupation was stated on the signature line.
DG/Builder
Let's see... where'd that acronym link go to? Dang Builder? Dog house Builder? Mom must be so proud..
Oh please Jethro, give me pointers on plumbing.
So you need more info to cypher the equation.
There is 38- 6" 90's, 13- 6" 45's, 6- 6"x4" tee's, & 5-6"x2" tee's.
Need any more info on how to figure the problem just ask?
Maybe you can ejamookate on my trade since you seem to know all about real life plumbing.
I guess I'm just an overpaid turd herder."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Need any more info on how to figure the problem just ask?
Yeah, you need to explain to the "stupid" teacher and the rest of us how the flow in that pipe has nothing to do with the pressure drop. Especially since now there are T's so not all the flow entering the pipe is going to the boilers.
Perhaps you and Boat can do lunch some day and exchange "static pressure" plumbing problems. You two remind me of John Lovitz on SNL: Ummm...yeah...there's no flow... yeah... no flow, that's the ticket!
More pertinent to the thread, in order to give a real answer, there are many parameters necessary, i.e. a fairly complex equation. Arithmetic is not sufficient to design that plumbing installation or determine the pressure necessary. Algebra was most certainly used by the design engineer(s).
DG/Builder
LOL Man you crack me up.
Flow has nothing to do with the original question.
I never asked the administrator to design the system. I asked how much do I need to increase the pressure at point A to obtain a certain pressure at point B.
PSI & GPM ie flow are two different things.
& as far as the original engineer well he got fired. That's one of the reasons why I am on the job.
This system did not require an engineer what it required was a plumbing detailer who understands the UPC.
You might want to go back to my original post to bossHogg. I never said I was talking to a teacher nor did I call him stupid.
You might try looking before you type & don't make assumptions.
One other thing , you trying to tell me how plumbing works would be like me telling BossHog how a truss works."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
I asked how much do I need to increase the pressure at point A to obtain a certain pressure at point B.
OK, one last time: the answer to that depends a great deal on whether you want 1GPM or 5,000 GPM going through the pipe. The more flow, the more pressure drop.
That's why you zone a sprinkler system at your house: if all heads are on at the same time you lose too much pressure.
If you can't grasp that simple concept, stop calling yourself a plumber.
DG/Builder
Edited 3/17/2006 10:23 am ET by dgbldr
You're confusing pressure with flow.
It's a common mistake by those not in the trade.
To increase flow/GPM you use a larger pipe NOT more PSI.
It is possible to create more flow via increasing pressure but then you end up moving the water too fast through the pipe, once you exceed 8 FPS ( feet per second) you drasticly shorten the life expectency of the piping system.
I saw Phill's post so I'll be nice.
Here are some pics of the system I was directly relating to.
Pump pic----- These are the pumps that provide my condo water from left to right 25hp jockey pump--- 60hp stage 2---- 60hp stage 3. All are 480V 3 phase.
They have clavalve prv's on the outlet side---- clavalve pic------ these regulate the pressure of the system.
The pumps put out about 430 psi each so we regulate them with the clavalves. We set the pressure while the system is "static" , flow/GPM requirements is irrelevent when setting the pressure. Flow/gpm is a factor on pipe size # of bends length of run & few other factors that would take a couple of pages to type out but I think you get the idea. But NOT PSI.
The black cone cover in the claprv pic is where we adjust the pressure.
Gauge pic & pumps2 pic shows inlet & outlet pressure.
View Image "There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Bill, I will try to be equally nice per phila's request.
I'm not confused in the least. All of this extra info is irrrelevant. Go back and read your first post. It's very simple.
You told this guy you have a piece of 6" water pipe going up 42 floors and you need x psi at the top end. You asked him what pressure is needed at the bottom. He said you didn't give enough info. I agree with him.
The simple point is that the problem as stated by you cannot be solved. At the very least you need to give the flow (zero or any other number). Which you didn't. And if the flow is other than zero, then you also would have to give some info on the pipe details, i.e. pressure drops caused by elbows, etc.
Your starting point was that this guy is inept in his profession. Perhaps he is. But you gave him an incomplete problem to solve and also gave him some attitude. I'm saying people living in glass houses shouldn't be throwing rocks. Or calling the kettle black...
DG/Builder
Edited 3/18/2006 1:49 am ET by dgbldr
I can't believe I'm actually replying to this
There is only one answer 1 bend or a million bends it doesn't matter.
There is only one answer 0 GPM or the Columbia river runnin through it, it doesn't matter.
Still just one answer I showed you pics of how we actually do this.
Back in the original post of mine I never said I showed any attitude.
Back in the original post the equation given only has ONE answer just like most story problems.
They don't tell you sally doesn't like apples or that she can't lift them they say how many she bought for a given price they don't tell you that she has the clap all those things are irrelevent.
One equation = one answer"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
There is only one answer 0 GPM or the Columbia river runnin through it, it doesn't matter.
See http://www.lmnoeng.com/HazenWilliamsDesign.htm or http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/calc_pipe_friction.cfm or any plumbing tables for pressure drop.
Plug in various numbers for flow or velocity and see how the pressure drop changes. Once you convince yourself that it DOES matter, try to understand WHY it matters. Good luck. This is my last post on this, you are welcome to have the last word.
DG/Builder
OK one last word sure.
The links you gave don't relate to the original equation.
Yes I use similar calcs when sizing a system.
To obtain the desired psi @ point B --- 0 flow or whatever GPM doesn't change input PSI -----it does change input GPM's to "MAINTAIN" pressure.
"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
"The pumps put out about 430 psi each so we regulate them with the clavalves. We set the pressure while the system is "static" , flow/GPM requirements is irrelevent when setting the pressure. Flow/gpm is a factor on pipe size # of bends length of run & few other factors that would take a couple of pages to type out but I think you get the idea. But NOT PSI."With an "internal" system like this I am surprised that they did not have a pressure transducer at the boiler and use that to control the pumps directly.I used to do software to control rual water distribution systems. The standard where water intake pumps, water treatment high service pumps and boost pumps and resiovors/tanks scattered through out the service area. Used radios to interrogate the level of the tanks and send commands to turn on and off the pumps. Some of the pumps where multi-staging and we would compute the number and size of the pumps depending on the difference between the setpoint and tank level.But we have a few systems without tanks. The pumps run continously.On those we use a pressure flow controller. A pressure flow curve is entered with a bunch of pressure/flow points and the pump stage needed to maintain that condition.The pressure/flow is measured at the pump, but curve is such to maintain adequate pressure at the end of the system for that flow rate.If the pressure is higher than the lower end point of that segment on the curve it will down stage. If the flow is higher then the upper flow point it will up stage.And within a pump state it interpolates the desired pressure bases on the flow and the two end points. That signal is used to control a VFD pump(s).
The boilers are only part of the system.
These pumps provide all the water for the condo's floor 20 to floor 42.
I found out max out put of the pumps via a clavalve failure.
My pressure gauges in the 42nd floor mech room only go to 160psi
we were doing start-up & testing when I opened the valve comming into the room
& there she blows ----pegged my gauges & popped 2 of my reliefs I had in the room.
Back to the pumps----- pump one jockey pump runs on a timer -- pumps 2 & 3 kick on with demand ie a pressure switch.
I have a bladder tank on the 42nd floor to mantain pressure so the pumps aren't cycling every time someone gets a drink of water."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
you trying to tell me how plumbing works would be like me telling BossHog how a truss works.
LOL - dbd DID try to tell Boss how to design trusses in one of his (her?) first posts.
To dgbldr & plumbill:
C'mon guys. The thread started with a teacher who would have demoralized & demotivated Einstein.
Can you two agree on that?
Hug it out and move on.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
There was a teacher in this thread?
LOL
No prob point taken. ;-þ"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
C'mon guys. The thread started with a teacher who would have demoralized & demotivated Einstein.
Can you ... agree on that?
well, not unreservedly - to quote the OP "He says his teacher says ..." - - so we have a third hand report on the teachers quote from a student that is struggling and looking for an excuse -
and it may be an accurate reflection of the reality - but I'd like to hear the teacher's side before I passed judgment -
and Einstein was a mediocre student, according to popular accounts I've read -
"there's enough for everyone"
...it may be an accurate reflection of the reality - but I'd like to hear the teacher's side before I passed judgment...
That is an excellent point. I would call the teacher and ask. I have seen kids (including my own) say the most outrageous things with a straight face.
If true, I would then find out why the teacher felt that way and perhaps follow up with the Principal.
DG/builder
I made appt. w/ teacher (very young)on Wed., took copies of first 40 or so of these posts. Asked her if she had told kids that they prob. would not use polynomials, she said "yes". Then I told her what u guys had said, gave her the posts. She was apologetic & said she would look @ posts & private tutor son. Course....what else could she have done? Next step was her boss & she knew it. We will see what the future does. Who knows, maybe she will become a BT convert? Thanks for ur help.
As boats234 stated I gave a simple problem & expected to receive a simple answer.
I could have a million bends in it & that won't matter as it relates to psi.
Bends friction & flow then it would be GPM's I would ask for.
The point is this: he was being an azz and rightfully got asked to leave. And he was WRONG and said STUPID things on top of being an azz. That is a bad example to set for one's kids.
First there was no kids there. Just a bunch of upset parents asking why the change in how they teach math.
Many parents thanked me afterwards, & this might shock ya even some teachers who don't like the new changes thanked me too.
The guy I posed the question to was on his high horse preaching to us parents , like we would not understand the "new math"
When I was asked to leave it reminded me of the movie "finding Forester" I just beat him at his own game."There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov<!----><!----><!---->
Polynomials are commonly found in engineering problems. Unfortunately I can't think of any good examples right now, since I haven't done any real engineering in 30 years.
happy?
"My son is having probs. w/ polynomials. any suggestions out there? He says his teacher says that she doesnt have any idea when they will use them, unless they teach math."
VaG,
Other than exercising one's brain, IMO no reason. I made it though calculus II. Never use much more than elementary arithmetic these days, and I do engineering....guess they have to teach something in school.......BTW, I have rhe same B-day as you. LOL
WSJ
Try "MathBlaster" software
"...He says his teacher says that she doesnt have any idea when they will use them..."
Sounds like a winner for a teacher. A good teacher should be enthusiastic about what they teach and should be able to point out lots of uses for algebra; including the obvious...you will most likely need it to get into college.
Even though I got my undergraduate degree in physics, I was a terrible math student and it was always a huge struggle for me. Best advice I ever got from a math professor was just to do all the problems in the book, even if they weren't assigned. Math is one of those skills that, at least for me, required lots and lots of repetition to get better at.
Best of luck to your son.
VA,
I'm sure there is one in MI. Find a Kaplan or Sylvan and get ready to write checks.
Most of the time they first find out why your kids are struggling, and what method will work for teaching them.
My son was a Low B student but after a little motivational training ont he family front he's now straight A's. The problem is he didn't do so well on the SAT's.
Since dad just isn't all that smart, $900 to Kaplan fixed the problem.
I work at an engineering firm, you will never need a poly or any other algebra equation in your life. But Algerbra teaches you how to think and that is the basic for calculus.The only equation you will need is square root of c=a2+b2. 2+3=7
thanks, as good an answer as any.but part of me rebels @ what appears to be useless "busy work"
I haven't "used" my English class, my History class, my Social Studies class, my Physics class, my Chemistry class or even my Gym class since high school. But what I have used everyday is the ability I found to learn things. Every subject in school requires a different approach to learn and understand it. Although to most, math may seem like busy work, it still teaches us how we learn this type of material.
We don't learn to remember the details, we learn to find out how to retrieve the details when we need them later.
(I will now step off my soap box and put it away for later)
"I haven't "used" my English class, my History class, my Social Studies class, my Physics class, my Chemistry class or even my Gym class since high school. But what I have used everyday is the ability I found to learn things. Every subject in school requires a different approach to learn and understand it. Although to most, math may seem like busy work, it still teaches us how we learn this type of material.
We don't learn to remember the details, we learn to find out how to retrieve the details when we need them later."
Very well said and true.
What i find frustrating is that kids, including mine, don't know how to take notes or even how to study for a test.
..work at an engineering firm, you will never need a poly or any other algebra equation in your life
Huh? I hope that was tongue in cheek, some may not take it that way?
Am sure I use at least polynomials every workday, even if buried in various computer design programs. Probably cannot remember a week in the last 45 years when trig wasn't actually used. If someone plays any video game these days, they are using lotta very powerful math, even if unaware.
Think it pays a lot more to design the games than to play them also <G>
I'm still trying to figure out 2+3=7
I'm still trying to figure out 2+3=7
That's calculus- we're talkin' algebra here......lol.
Wasn't "Algebra" the name of Stymie's donkey on The Little Rascals???
Bob
"I work at an engineering firm, you will never need a poly or any other algebra equation in your life..."
Doing what, making copies? I've been working as a Mechanical Engineer for 19 years, and although I may not use Calculus or Differential Equations on a daily basis, I have used both in my profession and using complex algebraic equations is a common need.
Edited 3/16/2006 2:33 pm by Tim
Polynomials have many uses in the real world. Start with Ax squared + Bx + C = 0
That's the basic equation for a parabola. Parabolas are all around us, if you just look.
Suspension bridge cables, the arc of an object in flight (like a thrown ball), the shape of a headlight reflector, satellite dish, etc.
The parabolic shape reflects waves (radio, sound, etc) to a focus point. That's where the thingy on the direct TV dish is situated, at the focus point, to catch all the satellite signals and send them to the TV.
The headlight works in reverse. The light sourcs is at the focus, and the light waves bounce off the parabolic reflector and shoot out in parallel paths straight ahead.
It's also the form of the equations for position and motion with acceleration.
Lots of uses. Plus, it's a building block in math for the next step.
Too bad the teacher has that attitude. My math teacher, as dry and monotonous as he was, actually got excited about all this stuff. Helped us learn it well, though.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
The other day, while triming out a set of stairs, I told my partner that I would like to go back to school and kick that punk who said "geometry is stupid and when will I ever use it" square in the arse.
What a sad excuse for a math teacher - have read that only about 10% of public school math teachers majored OR minored in math, they get the job dumped on them 'cause all the real mathematicians are working where they do use polynomials every day, AND GET PAID BIG BUCKS TO DO SO! That should be incentive.
Some examples on applications. The first was one of my first jobs that required solutions to cubic equations - 707 aviaonic rack cooling: if you think it is hard to balance the airflow to a few ducts in a house, try nearly 100 outlets to cool the electronics needed to fly an airliner. Same as pipe flow like plumbbill refered to, only multiple paths, each with a polynomial equation. You do get paid more to solve that type problem than loading a truck.
Kid in scout troop in the '70s liked polynomials and expansion series. Poked around in binary also. Wrote the calculator program for Windows while in high school and college, polynomials sure paid off in the millions for him.
Here are some VERY SIMPLE problems out of one of my 1950's algebra books, they all require poly to solve.
a. A round flower bed is surrounded by a 3 foot walkway. The clients son is 7 yo and the daughter 9 yo, so he want you to layout the flower bed so that the area of the walk is 7/9 th the area of the flower bed. - you need poly for this.
b. You paid $360 for a stack of drywall. Your son ran the truck into a corner of the stack and damaged 4 sheets beyond salvage. Your markup of $2/sheet allowed you to make a profit of $88. Your son didn't see how many sheets you originally bought, so you tell him if he can figure out how many you did buy he will not have to pay you for your lost markup. You son needs poly to figure out how many sheet you bought.
c. one more: A beam weighs 2#/ft. You can balance it on the back edge of your trailer , . with only 2 ft sticking off the back of your trailer ,, etc -- yu get the idea.
Unless you are content to just look up joists and beams in tables, you need polynomials for calculating beam deflections, etc. on and on and on
You dont need math if all you will ever do is flip burgers or pay somebody to do your taxes, etc.
You dont need math if all you will ever do is flip burgers or pay somebody to do your taxes, etc.
I guess i don't need math!
blue
And another thing - ever check you corner to be sure it is square - 3' x 4' and the diagonal is 5'. Remember "Pathagoriams (sp?) theory. It is a simple as all of that. I still like the tall blonde tutor.Mike
As for books, there is a series of guides called Schaum's Outline Series that lots of us used in engineering school. They are excellent study books, with lots of practice problems and clear explanations. They are written differently than the standard textbook, so may be what your son can learn from. Large bookstores may have them and I'm sure they can be purchased over the internet.
If you can't find the right person to do the tutoring the only logical thing to do is to hit the books yourself and refresh what you have learned. That way the kid knows you are serious and you are setting an example.
Never tell a kid that something is not important and they'll never use it so they don't have to know it. They need challenge and discipline and good work ethics and who else is better than youself to be a role model.
http://www.mathworld.com
Dave
Cool site Boulderbuilder! Thanks!
blue
Although their responses were much different, JMadson and plumbbill are both right, education has to (at least) appear to be relevant and practical to the student. Otherwise, they will not learn it. Like all of us, students need a payday in the forseeable future to give the effort to learn difficult material like polynomials. So when teachers can't prove relevance, the opportunity is lost. I know, I've been teaching math to at-risk kids for 12 years. I am currently in grad school and teed off beyond words at having to do various assignments in one particular class that seem to be only busywork to me.
I think we are returning to a more conscious focus on practical knowledge and critical-thinking skills after a number of years in which math was more theory-based at the middle school and high school levels. Polynomials, unfortunately, are generally still taught as theory and not through practical problems. Most of the state tests required in many states for high school graduation contain only a few Algebra II problems, most of them are testing Algebra I and Geometry, primarily.
That said, there must be someone in your child's school willing to spend extra time with him. If your state has state testing, ask to talk to the campus or district testing coordinator to see if extra tutoring is being offered. Ask the counselor or principal for advice. If you can't find anyone else, ask a math or special education teacher in the school to tutor him on the side.
I haven't visited this forum in awhile, so I can't remember if it allows e-mail access to each other, but if you need specific answers to problems, e-mail me or reply here and I will set a special temporary e-mail address to reply to.
Don't let your kiddo get discouraged, life is full of little hurdles like this and there is no reason he can't hop over this one.
Good luck.
Sometimes it is helpful to go backwards - deal with variables and functions with variables and exponents for a time then addition/subtraction etc on variables. Often its just fear of math that changes in appearance. If you "google" polynms it really helps plus there is a bood called "Algebra for Dummies" - not that either you or your son are dummies - that helps. Its just another way of looking at the problem.I like the idea of a pretty student tutor - mine was Marleen and boy did I love Calculus.Mike
I had a GREAT math teacher '58-'62 (high school). It was typical for her to read letters from successful students at the first of class - what they were doing with their math, etc.
I was building a spiral staircase - each step 30 deg - that came up into a 6 ft square opening in a deck. I was thinking about the layout - where the steps were going to intersect the sides of the square when it came to me - of course! - the tangent of 30 degrees.
I called her up (she was in her late '80's), very busy, but she could see our family in three weeks. It was a blast.
I use math and geometry, sometimes trigonometry constantly in the trades. (I've never found a use for Calculus though, beyond an exercise in thinking and staying out of trouble studying).
Tell him to hang in there.
That's about the sorriest excuse for a Math teacher I've ever heard of.
There is no way to get a handle on differential equations without being able to factor polynomials. Whether or not your son ever "needs" to understand the math that describes rate of change, his life will be richer for understanding it. We never know what anyone is capable of if they are denied the opportunity.
The "know-nothing" attitude of "I don't need it to draw a paycheck so what good is it" is reprehensible, especially if it is successfully projected onto a child's psyche. There is (or at least can be) more to life.
For example, while I did not need trig to build stairs, cut roofs, or do layout, it certainly helped. I definitely did not need any of those history, political science, or language classes to run a dozer, but I would not trade them for anything.
You have gotten a bunch of good reccomendations here. You also might check and see if there are tutors at the local community college who will work with your son. They are often pretty talented and will work evenings.
If nothing else, the mental discipline of learning math is beneficial. It is a useful and powerful way of desribing and predicting the operation or behavior of the built and the natural environment.
I hope you will continue in your effort to get your son a better education. He will certainly benefit from it, and the rest of the world will, too.
Good luck.
The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
Algebra is kind of and interesting subject. It is pretty useful by itself, but it's really useful in the sense that it allows you to learn trig and calculus, which are both *very* useful. (Yeah, I know this is the nerd in me showing, but calculus is very useful whenever you need to optimize something.)
Anyway, here's a few examples...
You have a roof that's 10 feet long, with a 4/12 pitch. What's the length of a rafter? (No, you can't use a rafter table.)
You need to pump water to the top of a tall building. What horsepower pump do you need for a given efficiency/residual pressure/volume?
The drag and friction on a vehicle can be described as D=a+b x+c x^2. How fast can it go with a given horsepower?
An engine rotates at 3600 rpm, with 300 ft-lb of torque. It's power is transfered through three sets of gears. The first set of gears reduce the engine speed by 1.3:1. The second set of gears reduce the engine speed by 1.5:1. The final set of gears reduces the engine speed by 3.73:1. All gears are 97% efficient. What is the engine's horsepower? Calculate the torque and speed at the output of each gear. What is the rear wheel horsepower and torque? What is the overall efficiency of the drivetrain?
You had 245/75/r16 tires on your truck. You change to 265/75/r16 tires. If your speedometer was accurate before, how fast are you actually going if it reads 60 mph?
What types of problems is he having?
Feel free to email is you like, I'm a sub teacher at my kids school, science, math, chem, etc.
I don't believe what I am reading! Your son's teacher doesn't have any idea when the kids will use algebra? Not to mention geometry, trigonometry and calculus ...
Only math teachers use it? Perhaps you should introduce this teacher to some of the following web pages. Speaking from personal experience I would say math is useful for Log and Timber Roof Framing and Joinery. Before doing any actual cutting we can test the proposed joints by making 3D Models. Here's a link to the Home Page.
This is the real world. These web pages are the result of consulting with/tutoring people who, in their younger days, perhaps due to a lack of encouragement, saw no purpose in learning math.
A few other uses for math: Machine shop. Electronics. Layout and assembly of architectural concrete units.
Joe Bartok
Edited 3/15/2006 12:06 pm ET by JoeBartok
Edited 3/15/2006 12:14 pm ET by JoeBartok
Edited 3/15/2006 12:16 pm ET by JoeBartok
I was already pretty impressed, now you teach school, too? <G>The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
I feel, the one purpose of learning all that stuff is to make better problem solvers. Math is a subject that is very x + y = z, there is no subjectivity to it. It is either right or wrong. Strong math skill (along with reading and science) teaches kids how to approach problems, find a course of action to solve them, and teach them how to implement a solution. I have never met a person who had good math skills and poor problem solving skills. They go hand in hand. The more math one can understand it seems the better the problem solving skills they have.
A lot of people wonder why we teach all these out of the way subjects to kids. They all teach them in one way or another how to solve problems.
English: You need to know this in order to communicate problems and solutions.
Math: Teaches problem solving at its most basic level. Process.
Science: More problem solving
History: Teaches about problems that have faced mankind from the beginning and how they were solved. Sometimes if you know how problems were solved in the past it will help you solve the problems of today.
During the interview process at many top engineering, tech, and finance / banking companies (heavy math industries) a part of the interview is to give a candidate 30 minutes in an empty room to solve a problem. If it gets solved they’re onto the next interviewer, if not, thanks for applying.
Try purplemath.com. My daugher uses it alot. ( she made honors again last year)
"any suggestions out there?"
Trade school, not everyone is destined to be a scientist. When I was in college, all the Engineering School dropouts ended up in the Business School or the pre-Law.
A lot of this stuff is simple, once you know the tricks.
You might wanna get him to look up a brief biography of Pythagorus. Outside of his theorum, the guy was feakin wierd. Had hisself a cult of "numbers" That stuff should at least get a teen-agers atttention.....at least with the wierdness.
then there is that "triangle" thing- was it Pascal's Triangle- which hlps with the orders of x's, xy's, squared cubed and all that.
If you wanna get him to buy into a "five year" plan of sorts, toss one of Richard Feyneman's books ("surely you're joking" is a catchy title)-little vignettes of pragmatic applications and anecdotes around physics.....I could try to describe his books, but couldn't do it justice. The chapters is so short and sweet, they is basically bathroom reading. If he likes it, then Feynemans biography is almost equally as fascinating. This ain't high falutin math stuff, it involves everything from home-schooling to bongo-drums, lock-picking to congressional testimony. Good fun reading. Good examples of lateral thinking, good examples of going against the grain (that should appeal to a teen-ager).
I forget which book it was in but the story of Feyneman's testimony to the Challenger inquiry is exquisite.
But if yer teen-ager is anything like my two, telling him to read it is gonna defeat the purpose. (one of mine actually did out of some kinda respect for my recommendation I suspect)..., and loved it) Just buy the book and leave it hanging around. You gotta do the Briar Rabbit thing and say some wierdo suggested this book, but you is disappointed cause it's way too wierd and complex for you to understand fully (the "fully" was to simply prevent you from having to lie- I'd be suprised if you didn't enjoy the book, even if you don't give two hoots for physicists)
To relate this to house building, some years ago I had a balustrade to dissassemble, refinish, and reassemble. Pencil marks would be obscured. How to label things so that I could put the balusters back in order? Roman numerals. Achieved by tapping a screwdriver into the butts. Roman numerals!!!! Easily 30 years since some math teacher drilled them into my brain, never used em til then, but they were the answer to my quandry. Funny how what seems meaningless now may not be later....
I ain't so naive to suppose that this is gonna be the total cure, and no doubt you've had other suggestions .
Myself I've always liked math, and am maybe one of the few folks who prefer to carry around a cordless and batteryless slide rule in the truck. It always works. After all, if it could put men on the moon, it's gonna be as accurate as I need for wierd angular problems.
Good luck...
Eric in Calgary
Here I is, replying to my own missive.When I first saw this, there were no responses. I typed my missive, and when I went back to it there were 65 responses.A whole lot of responses, and let me just give the exective summary....If anybody don't think that math matters, they is full of crap.Every job, soup to nuts, above the factory floor level entails mathematical manipulations. There are out of them 65 responses, probably 32 1/2 which entail real life rationalizations. Everything from plumbing to pay benifets. Im gonna draw once again on my readings of the various text by or on Feyneman and paraphrase his testimony to a congressional inquiry into higher education elucidated by an Italian physicist's opinion that since there had been no major advances in physics in the last 20 years, that American schools should stop teaching physics, and if the need arose, it was more cost effective to teach physics to those who were gonna be selected (by some unkown methodology) to solve the problem at hand.Feyneman argued, and successfully it seems, that "life is complex" and that those who learned phsyics, and the intrinsic methodologies would and could utilize their "physics" perspectives in other disiplines, beit being in developing or implementing business or economic models, socioeconmic endeavours, etc. In short, the law-makers of congress had not a hope in hell in either predicting or legislating how or when the students of a good math/physics teaching program would manifest itself in some "earth shattering" form. It should be noted by some, that RF then did involve hisself in Califoria with the "text-book" review committee. Keep in mind that his books "Feyneman on Physics" is apparently still a defacto standard in undergrad work south of the border, and anyone who has read his books will appreciate that "committee approval" of textbooks will sometimes entail approval of totally blank text books, (they wasn't ready for approval") or that some of the authors listed as substantial authors may not have done anything other that suggested their willingness to contibute(even if they didn't). I forget which book title he(RF) documents this in, but it is there, clear as day. Ergo, anyone who decries the stupidization of the math or any other educational standards of this month I'd suggest you better go back a few years, if not a decade or so. It was happening all around ya, but you may not have been in a time space to appreciate it. Now you is, and it may be, alas, a decade too late. Meanwhile thousands of educational administrators have been paid quite handsomely for the last ten years or so to excercise due diligence not only for each and every year of the past decade, but for the decades in the future. God only knows what these highly paid administrators has mapped out for the future. I guess we'll find out as the taxes multiply in proportion to our kids, or grandchildren, suffer.I'm gonna cut my rhetoric short, cause by now you at least get the drift od my thoughts....But just before ya write me off as a mathematical nut....(an aside......Ain't nothing like discovering that the "health text" that yer daughter is studying don't even mention STD's or even Aids cause it was published 10 or 12 years ago, and yer local school trustees aint't come to grips with the subject yet. Most parents can easily check this on the first few pages of the textbook, or at least check the index. Forget math for a minute and check out the life and death stuff if ya will. Who said attentiveness was a "focused" responsibility. We gotta pay attention to the whole educational spectrum. .........And that my friends, absolutely trumps the ability to comprehend polynomial equations doncha agree?) Eric
Cowtown, Now your talking about one of my heros (Richard Feyneman)
A majority here have never heard of him-- just about him--considered by many to be the smartest man in the world-- but a truly down to earth guy who would fit in perfect at the Tavern. He loved the practical joke.
He was the guy doing experiments with orings and ice cubes at his seat during the accident inquiry for the Challenger disaster. While bureaucrats and politicians cast a sceptical eye at the eccentric goof ball, he's the one who figured out the problem.
He would visit Rio every year for Carnival and hang out at the strip clubs doing nude sketches of the girls. He would do math tricks for drinks-- racing against abacus's and calculators against doing the problem in his head.
As a kid he would bet that he could stand on his head and pee uphill-- to dispel the theory of gravity applied to urination.
A great book and easy read " Surely your joking Mr. Feyneman" is a great book.
If you know a young person with a penchant for math-- get the book for them. It'll show them that math is cool and not just for nerds.
Surely you're joking!
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
> (Richard Feynman) .... He loved the practical joke.
He was the safe cracker at Los Alamos during WWII, played all kinds of jokes with security and locks and stuff. A lock, after all, is just a mechanical puzzle.
The "Surely You're Joking" book is mostly biographical. Fun reading for anybody. The two volume lectures on physics (the big red books, I still have them someplace) are more like undergrad level. Fun if you know a little math, like a little calculus, IIRC.
To me, trig and calculus are kinda like your right arm. If you have it, you'll find ways to use it.
-- J.S.
He was the safe cracker at Los Alamos during WWII, played all kinds of jokes with security and locks and stuff. A lock, after all, is just a mechanical puzzle.
Yeah, he spoke of that in the book. That and his 300LB pure silver door stop at Los Alamos on the Manhattan Project.
One of his favorite claims was that he could solve any problem, stated in 10 seconds, in 1 minute or less +- 10%. Until one of his mathematicians stumped him with a log equation.
Boats big fella!!!!Feyneman is ohh so enjoyable and light reading too, but you already knew that. So much of it translates to other aspects of life as well, for others' its just not math and physics lessons. I very much appreciate having some concurance with my offered perspective that if anything can encourage or motivate anyone to endeavour to understand the complexities of life that surround them, reading ANY of his books can. It took me into Vedic mathematics, and if you are so brave as to request an interlibrary loan of any title on this subject, there are aritmetic methodologies outlined in any of the books on this subject which I have read that will blow you away if you ain't been there yet. Nothin like you ever learned in highschool/university math classes. But then again, maybe you have. Reading Feyneman not only led me down that path, but also into more mathematics, and biographies of other intellectuals. "The man who knew infinity" about Ramanujan, a self taught mathematician from India, and how he achieved his place in mathematical history is also a story which has cultural considerations. And all this stuff leads one to go beyond the simple plane of the relationship of x to y, beyond the simple mathematical plane, to see beyond the rote aritmetic manipulations (although they have to be learned too) and further....Again, thanks for the reply, It's nice to know that someone else sees at least some of the value of his work. Heck, my point was that if a kid does NOT have a penchant for math, that this might be the motivational turning point that may instill sufficient basis to take math at least somewhat seriously. Regardless, it is still on my books as essential reading for anyone. Eric in Calgary.
Learning Algebra is like a guy learning about bras. You will never use one, but you need to learn about them because somewhere down the line you are going to regret it when it counts.