I think shimming is your best (only?) option. Others will be along to tell you whether metal studs will work or not.
Once the sheathing and siding is on, I don’t see how you can winch the structure back to square. A man I once worked for tried to plumb a wall that was wracked when the sheathing was put on. It was on the third story of an apartment building and he was tugging on it with a big lift truck. Guy I worked with told me this–he was standing on a ladder with a level to tell the boss when it was plumb. The boss pulled and the wall simply lifted at the other end, pivoted and fell to the ground. The remaining walls peeled away and fell to the ground too. Guy on ladder was unharmed.
So, what I’m saying is that the sheathing/siding will “lock” the studs in place in their wracked condition and you will not be able to pull them plumb. You’ll only succeed in lifting them off their attachment to the floor–or with the roof on and so on, something else will give.
Replies
"The interior shot is looking into the 2 story section of the structure. That second floor framing is coming out (don't let the new wiring fool ya!). The bearing walls are leaing to the left as you look at the photo"
The second floor framing is coming out??????? You mean all those floor joists running side by side that are holding the walls in????
Is that a Structural Ridge in there above the 2x4's?
It looks to me that half the room as you say has the floor joists and the other half doesn't and it's cathedral and it looks like you added two microlams under the existing rafters but that might have been the problem from day one why the walls were pushed out.
Once you take the rest of those floor joist out which are probably holding the walls from spreading even more, are you sure that the new microlams you put in will hold up the roof and keep the walls from spreading?
Do you have a set of Architectural plans for this?
Joe, you've got it right. That is a new structural ridge. The structure racked over the years partly b/c the beam that carries the left side of the bearing wall dipped on some poorly installed lally columns. (Edit: which we are going to pour fresh footings and resupport with new lallys)
The ridge has been spec'd to carry the roof load in the absence of the floor. It's well oversized, in fact. Bear in mind, also, that the walls aren't actually pushed out. They're racked. They both tilt almost exactly the same amount to the left. We'll be putting in some 6X6 beams at the top plate too which -- while mostly decorative --we'll attach to the plate in such a way that it has at least a little value in resisting the push of the roof.
To the earlier question, I guess I'd wonder how they got *into* that position with the sheathing on. I suspect with a balanced system of jacks/pulleys we could get some movement, but that's not going to happen even if it can. Point well taken, though. I'm not the final word on this by any measure, but maybe there was something to be said about your bosses technique! :) Tugging on the top floor of a building with a tractor sounds insane!!
_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Edited 3/5/2005 9:48 am ET by homebaseboston
Here's a quicker look.
Thanks Gold!_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
You be welcome.By the by.......Irfanview. <G> Those big pics are a killer for those of us on dial-ups. Argh. No real choice here though. Dial-up or satellite. http://www.irfanview.com/Free download, friendly interface.The basics of resizing with IV ="File"......."open".....direct it to image/pic file. Once opened...click on "image"....."resize/resample" (pick one or custom size if you like)........now click "image" again....sharpen once (maybe twice, but not usually)....time to "save as" (give it a different name). Now open that new saved file. Image info will tell you what size it now is (disk size). Not what you want?....Start again with original file. (You must save the modified/altered pic and then open that before you can see the actual file size alteration.)If you screw up while modifying a file, hit "file"........then "reopen". (You have an undo button the toolbar, but it's only good for undoing the very last thing you requested. More than that and you have to "reopen" and start over)Looks like you're havin' some fun with your little project there. :-) What's with the cornice return and the mating roof behind that tree branch? Is that well flashed or is water running inside and behind stuff there? Looks like it could be trouble in the pic.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Good eye! That has to be addressed during the second phase of the project, but you're right... it's a problem. I looked again at the pic... how the h-ll did you spot that!?
It's excascerbated by the fact that the bump out addition just barely visible behind the tree settled many moons ago (the main part of the house is from 1840, and that little addition was probably added right around 1890 or so). From the attic you can see where they added it on right on top of the old cedar shingled roof! They didn't go below the frost line with the field stone, so it settled badly in that one section. Hasn't moved in many many years, so the trick will be to jack the addition and support with a new sill when we get to that phase. Maybe 'round, say, 2050! This is a weekend project, so it's taking an eternity, but I suppose it is "fun" from time to time :-).
What do you think, Gold... any tricks to aligning walls like this? You can see I guess that I'll have almost a 37 foot run of wall on the long sides that need to be plumbed up to some degree. (Kitchen going back into that interior space).
I'm thinking just scab a plumb stud at the corners and run a bunch of string lines.
Thanks for the tip on Irfan... I knew there was something like that people had mentioned here!
Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Homey, Just returned from doing some plaster work. Expected to see some responses here, but ….nope. Not yet anyway. I'd agree that under the circumstances, jacking it all back to plumb would be a big undertaking, especially if this is a weekend project deal with both time and a budget at the helm. It could be done, but………it would be fairly involved. Old houses are supposed to lean a little anyway, aren't they?
As for plumbing the interior walls……. I guess I wouldn't personally try hanging upper cabs from light gauge metal studs. I'd go with the sistered wood studs to plumb things up, I guess. IF I'm picturing this right ( we don't have a view in the interior pic), you have some sistered on lengths of studs near the bottom of the walls studs. ?? Both sides of old stud, maybe. ?? This is what leaves you with the "obstructed" run for those "plumbing sisters" ?? If you're currently scabbed on both sides of your old studs, can you remove one scab and then have a thru run (top to bottom) for the plumbing sisters? Seems like this would be the simplest resolution if it's doable. If so, you might consider buying some 1x10s to do this. Rip 'em in half. Since you're out 1.5" in 8', that means you're pushing 2.5" out of plumb in those 13 feet. I wouldn't personally like to see less than 2" for the nailed part of the sister at any given point…….and a ripped 2x10x14 would just about give you that. Plus it would yield more bearing at the bottom to sit on the sill/sole plate than using a 2x4. Can't tell from the pic if the existing studs are a full 4", but if they are…….they're still narrower than the today's ripped 2x10 will yield. If you don't mind giving up that ½" of room space for the extra insulation space it yields, you're set. Otherwise, you'll have to remove some material from the back edge at one end of the sisters to get those to tuck inside the current stud plane. (Top edge on one side of room, bottom on the other.) If you're comfortable with a reducing lap of old to new that ends up with 1" lap at the worst end.......you could go with the 2x4s sisters. I'm sure you realize that you're also facing some custom slightly tapered window and door jambs if you do the wall plumbing.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 3/5/2005 8:58 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
thanks Gold. Was really close to jacking/leveling the place. I agree, it can be done. At a certain point, though, you just want the friddin thing to end! And that's where I'm at. I will jack/level the floor joists on the first floor, and hang them with new joist hangers, but that's about it. Even that'll be a PITA.
And this isn't even the trickiest part of the job. Wait until I show you pics of the cluster you-know-what the last builder made of the sunporch. I've never seen anything like it.
Anyway, I get it and your analysis is right on again. I will probably have to take off one of the small sisters at the sill to give a run top-to-bottom... that's probably the best way to go. I've got some new wiring in that I'll have to move, too, but not the end of the world. Great call on the 2X10.
Yea, I realized that we're looking at tapered jamb extensions. Makes me wonder how much time I'm actually saving.
Am I on the right track with plumb corner stud and string line? Or is there a better technique to make the work go faster. When I was in the field full-time, I never came across a run this long, so would just plumb one at a time. (Bathrooms, mostly).
thanks again,
Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Yeah, I'd probably string it. Get all the pieces cut, tuck em in the wall with a temp nail to hold each one, then stretch the strings out front and have at it.I don't suppose there's any such thing that the existing wall planes are flat and adequately true, but just leaning uniformly? Cause if they are, you could just make up a bunch of identically tapered face shims to marry to the front edge of the studs and use a lot less lumber that way. Maybe there's just a couple studs that are out of an accepatably flat plane on each wall. ?? Say those bowed outward toward the exterior side, you could sister the sides of just those and then use the tapered face edge shims for the rest. You get the idea, I'm sure. First stretch a few strings, a little analysis with a tape measure and then pick the shortest route to the desired end result.If you go the 2x10 route, I'd hand-pick nice straight flat pieces with the tightest & straightest grain you can find or they may want to crook some on you when you rip 'em. Then you'd be fighting the crook to get things aligned and would need another string or two to help.With any luck, someone will chime in here with an easier way to do all this that I haven't thought of.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 3/6/2005 9:13 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Someone mentioned this for shimming floors to level and I wondered if it might work for walls--like Goldhiller said--if they're all leaning uniformly: apply strips of progressively thicker plywood perpendicular to the studs. A lot easier than cutting tapered shims, especially since you seem to have a lot of them to do. Maybe someone else will comment.
I'd comment but I couldn't understand the question.
If you can straighten a bathroom wall, you can straighten a wall thats five times as big. The process is the same: establish the plates lines and connect the dots.
Like I said, I don't understand the question.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
It is impossible to plumb a house that has the roof sheathing on. Make it structurally sound and leave it out of rack. Straighten the inside with 1 1/2" metal studs, channel bridging thru the center studs. Screw a scrap of drywall at the center of the stud, on the closed side of the stud,and against the sheathing. This will make the studded wall very stiff. You can use metal studs in the kitchen too. Install same way as above, add 1/2" plywood for backing where the cabinets will be. If you are not sure yet of the cabinet layout, then sheath the entire wall with plywood and rock over it.
mike
After saying what I said about you can't straighten racking after sheathing is on, I was thinking--it must have racked after the sheathing was on in the first place, so maybe things are loose enough to try pulling it. But another post said the same thing about after the fact straightening not working, so.... I guess then my questrion would be how do you prevent it from going back to its racked state after you pull it up--I guess some humongous steel strapping?
Good point. I think in old timberframes they just used knee bracing (and even TF hybrids like this place). Think the knee bracing on this place was cut in a couple of places and just not installed in others.
Tapered face shims are a great idea for the studs we've already run wire through... even if it takes a bit longer, I think it'll be easier than pulling back through a couple hundred feet of Romex.
There's a time and a place to really invest in truing up a structure... and I'm just the kind of anal SOB that would do it... but this ain't it. I've turned "keeping my hand in construction"... which I miss alot... into a second full time job! Even though I'm around construction all day, it's just not the same when you're not doing it.
We've also been thinking about keeping that second floor in place and making a kind of "loft" out of it... which is cool in concept, but just adds to the time/cost of the job and will probably not happen in the final analysis._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
I agree with everything you said--I tend to be a perfectionist myself, but there is a time to stand back and say, "Good enough!" It's sort of the concept of building a palacial structure in a run down neighborhood--if the stuff around whatever it is you're building is not perfect, you just don't get the return on the effort invested. Like putting a slate roof on an outhouse--nice, but is it worth the effort? ;-)
Had to resuscitate this thread b/c a question came up.
I'm about to start padding out the out-of-plumb walls for the kitchen. I'm prepared for extension jambs on the windows, but I'm trying to picture how I'm going to handle this for the exterior door.
Do you do adjust the jamb on the exterior side?
_____________________________
HomeBase______________ LLC
Can you remove the door, add jamb extensions to the outside edge of the jamb & rehang the door?When I have to add jamb extensions to a door, I attach them to the stop side of the jamb, usually with pocket screws if the extension's too wide to be nailed from the edge. You can add extensions to the strike side, but the latch normally will hit them.You may also have to extend the sill if you add to the outside of the jamb.
That would depend on if the door is inswing or out.
Most exterior doors are inswing, so you would either be setting a new door to your new wall plane w/no extension jambs at all, or using tapered extension jambs if you are leaving the existing door in place.
God, I cant tell you how much of this shimming work I have done even just this last year. I have long ago abandoned using a string, which I find a pain. Instead I use a long straightedge (we've got some nice ones that were for corian fabbing) butted against the first and last stud in the run. Set those plumb, then run along the bottom and tack all the bottoms of the studs to the old studs. Move the straightedge up and whistle for a helper to nail all the infill studs to the straightedge. Its much faster than playing with strings. Try a roofing nailer for steel studs too.
I'll be setting a new (inswing) door, but I'm going to be setting into a trapzoidal space, right? Plumb on one side, leaning on the other. In this case, the interior will be plumb, the exterior leaning. Not really sure how to account for that.
Good point re: straight edges. This is a 20' run, but it would be a he-- of a lot easier if I can track some long straight stock._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
tilt 'er up plumb in the hole and measure the tapered ext. jambs that will go outside the door. tack to jamb and test fit.