Replies

1. 
   catch32 | Sep 24, 2005 06:09am | #1

   The problem with interior storms is that condensation can build up behind the storms and ruin your wood windows.

   Try Screen/storm combos from Adams Architectural (http://www.adamsarch.com)
   The have traditional wood frame screens with glass storm window inserts that install from inside the house. I have purchased these and they are of good quality. A storm/screen for a large double hung window cost about $200, which is reasonable.

   Email me if you need additional info [email protected]

1. 
   GLAUCON | Sep 25, 2005 03:30am | #2

   Thanks for your reply.

   I am curious about your statement regarding condensation- it seems like it would be more of a problem with exterior storms, particulaly if the weep holes are blocked.

   If the interior storm is tighly installed, then (moist) air from inside the house will not infiltate behind it- this is the likeliest souce of condensate.  If the (dry) exterior air infiltrates past the sash or around the  rough opening of the double hung window, it will chill the interior storm, leading to condensate on the inside of the storm, but not in the space between the storm and the main window.  Am I missing something here?Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   catch32 | Sep 25, 2005 06:55am | #3

   I strongly considered the interior storms for my historic home, but decided that the negatives outweigh the positives.With exterior storms the temperature differential takes place on the outside of the windows. With interior storms it takes place on the inside.I have orginal stained woodwork on the inside of my double hung sashes. An excessive amount of moisture would ruin them. The outside of my windows has putty against the glass and paint, which is much easier to repair.The clincher is that if you use exterior storms your historic windows are protected from the elements. With the interior storms your historic windows are going to be soaked by rain and subject to more sun and more extreme temperature differentials.Also, The exterior storms are real glass, not plexiglass that will scratch and cloud up in a few years.The exterior storms are historically accurate and do no ruin the look of the windows from the inside. The interior storms are much more visible from the inside of the house.Considering all these factors the Exterior storms appear to be a more reasonable option.

1. 
   kate | Sep 25, 2005 08:56pm | #4

   I agree with Mike.  All the reasons he gave are valid & well-put.  And, too, my storms came with the house, although they needed some work...

   Kate

1. 
   GLAUCON | Sep 27, 2005 04:00am | #5

   Hmmm.  I guess I can only meet you part way.

   1.  Exterior storms do protect the primary window from weathering, whereas interior storms do not.  But they also change the appearance of the window and the house.  Interior storms, at least to me, are less noticeable particularly if they are a single sheet of framed glass.  Window treatments are often quite effective at concealing the frame.  Many historic buildings (Monticello, Faneuil Hall, etc) use interior storms. 

   The choice of one over the other is driven by personal taste, not by "historical accurarcy".

   2.  Interior storms are available in a number of glazing materials: glass, low e glass, polycarbonate and plexiglass- as are exterior storms. "Real glass" can be had with either type of storm.

   3.  Interior storms have been shown in a number of tests to be more weather tight than exterior storms.  The latter are ventilated because they require weep holes (see #4).  As a result, energy savings with interior storms are a from a little to a significant bit better than with exterior storms.

   4. Condensate can be a problem with interior storms, but it is more of a problem with exterior storms.  With double hung primary windows, air infiltration can occur through the sash or around the casement rough opening.  In the winter in colder climates (when condensation is often a problem), cold dry air can infiltrate between the primary window and the interior storm.  The humdified air is on the room side of the interior storm, not between the storm and the interior window.  Thus condensation will form on the room side of the interior storm where it can be wiped away (as it does on the inside of a car's windshield in the winter from the breath of the occupants), not between the storm and the primary window. 

   With an exterior storm, the situation is reversed.  Warm, humid air will infiltrate between the primary window and the exterior storm and condense on the inside of the storm window, and drip into the well- that is why exterior storms have weep holes- to allow this condensate to escape and avoid rotting the window frame.  When condensate forms between the primary window and the exterior storm, it requires opening the window and wiping all the affected surfaces regularly.  This is more of a chore than wiping the room side of an interior storm window.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

2. 
   catch32 | Sep 27, 2005 08:35am | #6

   63563.6 in reply to 63563.5 I have to respectfully disagree with many of your points:>1. Exterior storms do protect the primary window from weathering, >whereas interior storms do not. But they also change the appearance >of the window and the house.....The choice of one over the other is >driven by personal taste, not by "historical accurarcy".I've never seen a house built in the 1800s within interior storms, have you? I do not wish to drill holes in my 120 year old woodwork. It IS about historical accuracy. Exterior wood frame storms are historically accurate.>2. Interior storms are available in a number of glazing materials: >glass, low e glass, polycarbonate and plexiglass- as are exterior >storms. "Real glass" can be had with either type of storm.Agreed.>3. Interior storms have been shown in a number of tests to be more >weather tight than exterior storms. The latter are ventilated >because they require weep holes (see #4). As a result, energy >savings with interior storms are a from a little to a significant bit >better than with exterior storms.I think you have been reading biased info from the interior storm manufacturers. Do you really think your old DH windows are sealed tight enough to keep out moisture? I would say not.>4. Condensate can be a problem with interior storms, but it is more >of a problem with exterior storms. Not true. Remember the weep holes you mentioned earlier. >In the winter in colder climates (when condensation is often a >problem), cold dry air can infiltrate between the primary window and >the interior storm. The humdified air is on the room side of the >interior storm, not between the storm and the interior window. And what happens in the summer when your running the AC and it's 90 degrees and humid outside? Wouldn't the situation be reversed and wouldn't condensation form on the cold glass of the outside of the interior storm? Then how does the water get out? Since you have told me how tight the interior storm is and how they lack weep holes, then where does the water go?I almost bought the interior storms myself. After doing some research I discovered they have some issues.

3. 
   Aaron | Sep 27, 2005 08:47pm | #7

   This was discussed in a prior discussion--I believe this is the source for outer storms.

    

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63590.9

4. 
   GLAUCON | Sep 28, 2005 06:59am | #8

   When I originally posted my message, I was angling to get feedback from someone who has used or installed interior storms. I've already GOT exterior storms, so it's not as if I need to be caught up on their pros and cons.  You've obviously given the matter some thought, but, so far as I can tell, you don't seem to have any first hand experience with interior storms. 

   While you are entitled to your opinion, you seem anxious to generalize that view to everyone- largely in the absence of facts: you were, for example, unaware of glazing options in interior storms, and you pontificate: "I've never seen a house built in the 1800s within interior storms, have you? I do not wish to drill holes in my 120 year old woodwork. It IS about historical accuracy. Exterior wood frame storms are historically accurate."

   Well, since you ask, I have seen houses and buildings from the 19th Century (and 18th) that have interior storms.  It's actually where I got the idea.  One of the libraries at my University was built in stone in the late 19th Century in a Victorian-Gothic style. This library was restored about 12 years ago, and the beautiful windows were also restored- and fitted with interior storms.  When I was in it last winter I was admiring the work and noticed that the manufacturers mark was "Allied Window".  This, I hasten to point out is a fact, not my opinion.  As for houses with interior storms, well Monticello is kind of nice.  Sort of historic, as well.

   I have since done some research on interior storm windows and found that are considered appropriate for restoration by the National Park Service, although they must be properly chosen and installed.

   You seem to miss the point about weep holes.  The reason that exterior storms require weep holes and interior do not is because condensate is a bigger problem with most exterior storms- you simply have to have a drainage option.  It is for this reason that they are less efficient insulators than interior storms... that is also a fact, not my opinion, e.g.:

   http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/windows_doors_skylights/index.cfm/mytopic=13490

   (That Energy Department.  Always shilling for the window manufacturers...)

   Interior storms are also usually more energy efficient than exterior storms, although the savings will vary depending on the condition of the primary window and whether low-e glass is used, see for example,

   http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/97/970908.html

   (Another quasi-government web site.  Must be a conspiracy...)

   As for your point about condensation with interior storms in the summer, that depends.  If you live in a humid environment, and run air conditioning fairly constantly, you could have a problem with interior storms. I don't, and as I plan to store the storms in the off season, so it's not a particular issue for me.  Remember, I was asking for myself- not attempting to declaim what everyone else should do.  If your primary window is fairly tight, particularly around the sash, you probably won't have a problem in the summer with either type of storm.

   For me, interior storms seem like a better idea than what I have now.  For others, exterior storms might be best.  Some may want to replace the entire window with a new double glazed unit. I think different situations will require different solutions. I don't think you should presume to impose your aesthetic or opinions, absent facts as the only sensible answer.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

5. 
   andybuildz | Sep 28, 2005 02:25pm | #9

   FWIW I'm ordering aluminum exterior storms for my circa:1680 house today.

   One option I never knew about is that you can order the window that is inoperable/fixed piture. Its one sheet of glass with no cross bar. the window is removable and a screen can be inserted in the pace of the glass where and when needed. Its a bit less conspicuous but not dramatically as the cross bar is in front of the wooden crossbar and the same color as the operable

   Its also a matter of $ & cents to me. I could build wood storms easily enough but with all else I have going on with this project its prohibative. I'm doing the best with what I have, Storms are $50 each up to 101 U.I and the money I will save in one season far outweighs any question I have about the right decision, I can in the future change to wood and still be ahead of the game IMO.

   If money were no object it'd be hands down wood storms outside but money is a huge consideration and a lot of the historic homes in my area w/ aluminum storms don;t look horrendous at all....and as I say, I could make the storms in wood down the line and even use the glass from the triple track storms. I've even entertained the idea I've had of encasing the aluminum track with wood over it. Might actually try that on an inconspicuous small window. Necessity and affordability is the mother of invention.

   Be creatively well insulated

   andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!

   When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..

     I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,

   I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.

   I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you

   and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.

    

    

    

    

6. 
   GLAUCON | Sep 28, 2005 06:15pm | #11

   Sounds like you've thought it through.  I still like not covering the exterior of the window, but that's just my own personal opinion.  One advantage of the aluminum exterior window is that the frame will be fairly narrow and less distracting than a thicker wood would likely have to be, so it may end up looking better, or at least less noticeable.  Good luck with your project,Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

7. 
   reinvent | Sep 28, 2005 02:46pm | #10

   I have installed dozens of Allied's interior storms and for the most part I think they are a great idea. The magnetic edge gives you an air tight seal and you can get them painted to match your trim. I have never gotten a complaint from clients abought condensation issues when using these windows. Also you can have magnetic screens made as well.
   BTW I have installed them for the purpose of blocking out noisy streets. They have a good NTS ratting although I could not tell you what it is.
   They are also a lot easier to put in and remove in the spring and fall.

8. 
   GLAUCON | Sep 28, 2005 06:17pm | #12

   Thanks very much for your info.  A few questions:

   1.  How well do the magnetic seals hold up?  Any call backs?

   2.  What is Allied's lead time (usually)?

   3.  Any tips regarding measuring?

   Thanks again for your advice,Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

9. 
   reinvent | Sep 28, 2005 07:17pm | #13

   The seals seem to hold up fine, never any callbacks. I think lead time is 3-4 wks maybee longer when winter sets in (everybody impulse buys;-)
   Give them exact measurements, they will adjust acordingly. They will probably ask you what type of app ie window and trim detail you have.