Alternate Layouts for 3 tab Shingles?
I DIY homeowner who finds FHB a fantastic read. I read every issue cover to cover, and have library that goes back to issue #89.
I am preparing to do my own roof this summer. I did a bit of shingling as a youngster. I also did my own Kitchen roof 10 years ago, which included a chimney in the middle of a 3 in 12 pitch roof, that had been flashed improperly. My reroof job has not leaked in that 10 years. Needles to say, I feel up to the job.
When I did the kitchen roof, I used “Shangles” which were really new then. Shangles are ordinary 3 tab shingles, with semi random colored shakes laminated on top of them. The effect is supposed to be to look like more expensive random shingles. I bought enough to do the rest of the roof 10 years ago, and I am only now preparing to finish the job on the rest of the house.
Having watched “Shangles” appear on other houses in my neighborhood, I have decided two things:
1) The fake shadow lines on course below never line up with the colored tabs on the current row, and so they look ridiculous to me. I plan to shingle at 4.5 inches, to hide these stupid fake shadow lines.
2) Even with the “random” multicolor shingles, I still think that they look too much like 3 tab shingles.
Years ago on a trip to Berkeley CA, I saw a roof that had an alternate pattern for 3 tab shingles. Rather than using the standard offset from the vertical line of 0,6,0,6,0… it used some other pattern Like 0,7,1,6,-1,5, etc… It was a very effective in masking the repititive geometry of 3 tab shingles that I find so objectionable. Unfortunately, I did not have any way of writing down the pattern.
I searched this site, hoping to find an alternate layout for courses of 3 tab shingles. I was suprised not to find any. I like the idea of trying an alternate pattern, since I am not going to stay in this house forever. I can’t justify throwing away $500 worth of shingles just to please my eye.
Any Ideas for an alternate pattern?
Replies
The standard is the 6" offsets. I've also laid them on 4" offsets, that way every 3rd row lines up instead of every other one. Years ago we did a big roof with 5" offsets, than the tabs only line up every 12th row. You could see there was a pattern, but it still appeared to be random lay. You have to chalk a lot more lines and you can only lay in one direction. The reason we did this , we were having trouble keeping the tabs running straight, even if you chalked vertical lines. This was back in the 70's and the shingle manufactures quality control was bad, the shingles were varying + or- ¼" from 36" and in a long run the shingles would run off. Of course you could lay them totally random, no vertical chalk lines. Just offset them randomly however you want! I found that on a manufactured house that I put an addition on. Didn't notice it till I went to check the offsets so I could match the new shingles of the addition. Suprisingly, it didn't look that bad. Where were these shingles stored for 10 yrs.? If they were stored where they would get hot(attic) in the summer, they may not be in as good as shape as they look. Probably won't get as many years out of them as if they were brand new.
The shingles were stored under a porch, so I think they should be fine. The paper wrapping is probably gone, so it may be a lot of fun getting them up the ladder, and onto the roof.
I was really wanting a random look. I am trying to get away from the geometric look. The 4 inch idea is interesting but it still is geometric. The design I saw in California definitly was deliberate, and I think it repeated every 10 or 12 courses.
About 100 years ago, there was a movement in design that studied how you could make repeating patterns that looked random. An example of this is the 60 year old wallpaper in my bedroom. The wallpaper has to be a repeating patern, but you don't want the effect that happens when you look at the wall from an angle. The little flowers would line up, and you get geometric "aliasing".
There are probably standard formulas for this. I suspect that the roof you saw used one of these patterns, and it was so effective, you didn't realize that it repeated. It is really hard to just lay them down at random, and actually have it look random. Inevitably. patterns that you can't see up close will be really obvious from the ground. The effect is often really unpleasant.
Manufacturer's design the shingles to give the proper pattern when installed according to package instructions. When people shingle in columns or do other offset patterns not called out for by the manufacturer is when shingles look less like they should. I think you're best off following the pattern the manufacturer has worked out.
With 3 -tab we always lay them out in books of 5, that is 5" on every course. 6" looks like crap! With the 5" the tabs run up at an angle not every other like in the 6" way. With the 5" every 8th tab lines up, not every other like with 6" tabs.
Good Luck with your project!
Edited 4/28/2004 2:28 am ET by G80104
I am confused. Are you talking about 5" of exposure (IE how many inches of each tab remain uncovered) or how much offset from the vertical line? I would think that doing a 0,5,0,5... would look stranger than a 0,6,0,6...
First shingle 1st row 5"long
2nd row 1st shingle 10" long
3rd row 1st shingle 15" long
4th row 1st shingle 20" long
5th row first shingle 25" long
6th row first shingle 30" long
7th row first shingle 35" long
repeat, , have fun & make sure you drink lots of water when your on the roof, the sun will beat you up if you let it!!!
Can you post a picture? I want to see the overall effect. Sounds interesting.
Tom,
Will try a drive bye on a past roof in the am, have not done any 3 tab roof ( or any roofing) in about 10 years. Will see what we can dig up!
Here are 2 photos, quality of photos is lacking but the best I could do on a short notice. Light colored shingles were laid in the 6' off every other row. The keys of the shingles go up in a stright line from eave to peak. The black shingles (That Were installed 14 years ago ) were laid in books of 5. Notice the keys (tabs) run up the roof at an angle. Will see if I can get better photos when the weather clears.
Will also see if I can find my old shaker box & big Moe Slap hammer. The big Moe was outlawed here in the late 70s but they were allowed in other parts of the country. The shaker box is a tool of the past, due to 99.9% of all roofers use air now!
Don't know what a "big moe slapper hammer" is, but I've got a shingle crew that uses shaker boxes. The lead guy goes faster with a box than the two helpers go with a gun.
The Big Moe was like a hammer tacker, but it used 1 1/2 "crown staple to staple the 3-tabs down. It was hand held & powered. It would hold about 80 staples & I think it was made by Arrow.
Problem was every once & a while the winds would clock in @ 90mph + and any new sub division with fresh roofs would end up in the next county. Big Moe took the blame & that was the end of staples used on 3 tabs!!!
THis is pretty amzing. A picture is worth 1000 words.
I will have to research the "Shaker box" and "Big Moe Slap Hammer". Probably find 'em on eBay. It was 1980 when I did roofing, and we had to grab nails out of our tool belt. I was young, and not getting paid much. If it weren't for the fact that we occaisionally did tin roofs (which are a lot of fun), I would not have stuck with it as long as I did.
My next door neighbor grew up as a roofer, and still does it on the side. He has me convinced that with my pine boards for a roof deck, nails are the way to go. Air doesn't let you know that the nail just went into the crack between the boards. I have seen plenty of houses in my neighborhood have shingles rip off in strips in the wind, cause a whole course of shingles were only attatched to the tar paper.
seeems to me I'd want to start with the longest one first? then nail as usual..less lifting and tucking under no..?
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Both ways will work, we always went 5,10,15,20 etc. just because it was the way we were taught. That was pre nail gun days, when the shaker box was king & $15.00 per sq was good money to lay them, few bucks more for anything over 6/12 pitch. Anybody remember the slap hammer (caller Big Moe)?
You'd better check those 10 year old shingles. Each bundle may be a solid block by now if they've been stacked very high.
Rather than snap a bunch of wierd bond lines, use a roofer's hatchet and set the gauge at 5". Use it to offset each course if you want random. Go left for several courses and then go right for a different # of courses. Oh yeah, if you go out and buy a new hatchet, take that stupid knife off the end of it. The only thing it's got for is cutting yourself on the back swing.
Good luck.
Oh dear, I hadn't thought of that. I have them stacked 6-7 bundlers high under the porch. I was more concerned about heat, and the porch being concrete with one open side seemed the best place. The bottom few got soaked in a flood we had back in September of 96, so I assume that some of the paper wrappers are now useless. Iwill definitly check them out before any further planning..
Somebody else mentioned about plenty of water. That is a good point to remember. When I did the work in the spring of 94, it was Easter weekend: Mid 60-s gentle breezes.
Anybody remember the Ice storms of the winter of 96? Roofers here in Philly were so busy that spring, I had trouble getting an appointment for an estimate. I had an active leak on a 3 in 12 pitch roof with chimney in the middle that was not couterflashed. The weight of all that ice, meant the roof sagged, and in the tug of war that resulted, the flashing under the shingles ripped. I used ice sheild, and I went overboard by double counterflashing the chimney.
This year's project will start either Memorial day or July 4th weekends. I only have 10 squares left to do, and it is only one layer. Unfortuanatly, the improperly flashed chimney, knowing that some of the 1 by 12 decking boards are gone and I found roofing nails I found under the tar paper means I want to rip off the one layer.
Oh my! Where do I start? I'm bound to forget something here. I'm willing to bet that nobody here has nailed down more asphalts than I have.
Estwing is not the only roofers hatchet with a knife blade. The estwing steals the idea from real roofers hatchets much better than Plumbs. Mine is an AJC.
your shingles are likely going to be hard to use. They come from the factory with talc or corn starch between each shingle to keep them from sticking together. So the lable says to store them in a dry place. If they were rained on for ten years and had a flood, that talc is washed away and the shingles probably canbe used if carefully separated, but there will be a lot of labor in that and some will be pretty well welded together.
The ones in the bottom may have mold or fungus growing between them.
Shangles are not that new. I can remember laying them over twenty years ago, I'm pretty sure. They never really caught on very well in my areas because they were a cheaper attempt to do what they bespoke themselves of.
I can't remember where the sealdown strip is on Shanles for sure, but some manufacturers will void warrantee when you change the layout especially RE exposure. But what the heck, we aren't expecting them to be warranteed anymore anyway, are we? That raises another question doesn't it? do you really want to invest all that labor in ten year old shingles? I might, but I'd look prettyclose at them first and probably use a triple ply of 15# or doubled 30# underlayment.
What else, oh Yeah, the layout - Waht you are remembering is a stairstep 5/5 pattern. You can acheive it bystarting with the 36" shingle and then cutting off another 5" on each one going up. Another way to do it or to reset around valleys, chimneys and dormers, is to simply chaulk a single line up the roof at a 45° angle and set the top corner of each shingle to that line. It is a method that is better in cold climates than running a rack straight up the roof @ 0/6/0/6/0/6 because you don't have to lift to nail under the fl;ap in cold weather when shingles are brittle.
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That knife thing does not come on a real roofing hachet. Buy the Plumb roofing hachet . I think that only" don't swing anything Estwing" has that meat cutter.
Well I got lucky with the 10 year old Shingles, they were fine. memorial day weekend was great roofing weather, and I almost have the front half done.
I got help from a neighbor who has been doing roofs since he was 10. I had a hard enough time convincing him that I really wanted the Horizon "Shangles" to be laid out course by course. He is so used to laying shingles in vertical columns, but I showed him how when the "shangle" part of the shingle is cut in half on the right side of shingle, the other half is on the left side of the next shingle in the bundle. I decided not to mention the idea of alternate layouts.
It is too bad too, since I spen a lot of time in a drawing program experimenting with alternate layouts, based your:
"Go left for several courses and then go right for a different # of courses. "
I still have to do the back roof, so I may try my pattern there working by myeslf. The back does not have any trees hiding it, does not have a dormer to make things complicated, and the steeper pitch (7.5 in 12) will make it more noticable, but has a 3 in 12 kitchen roof below it to make the work safer. Also, the back roof can be covered easily with one tarp.
Anyway... The pattern I liked the best was actually one of the simplest. It repeats in only 10 courses. Starting with the "Zeroth" Course on the vertical refferance line, course #1 is laid 5" to the right. Courses 2, 3, and 4 get laid 5" to the left of the course below. Courses 5, 6, 7, and 8 are laid 5" to the right course below. Finally, Courses 9 and 10 go 5" to the left again, to come back to the refferance line. To summarize:
1R + 3L + 4R + 2L
An easier way to actually lay out the same pattern is to take a peice of thin plywood 16" by 49.5". First strike a line so that 6" is to the left of the line, and 10" is to the right. Next strike lines going accross every 4.5" to represent each course. Finally, cut each course to the right of the line, starting at the bottom, using the following measurements:
Course "0"
0 inches
Course "1"
5 inches
Course "2"
0 inches
Course "3"
7 inches
Course "4"
2 inches
Course "5"
7 inches
Course "6"
0 inches
Course "7"
5 inches
Course "8"
10 inches
Course "9"
5 inches
Course "10"
0 inches
You can now take this plywood up to the roof, and lay it on the vertical chalk line, lining up the templates course's 0 and 10 on the line. Next you take a piece of chalk, and draw the outline of the template on the roof. The left edge of the first shingle in each course should touch this line (you can use right, if you are left handed).
I'll post a picture at the end of the summer, if I actully lay out the back shingles this way.
Glad it all worked out. I think you better keep your day job, though. Those layouts look like time killers. Post us some pics when your done.
I did the back half of my roof using my new pattern. I posted some pics of my "Alternate" pattern, under a new discussion with the same title. I really like the effect, and wish I had done the same on the front half.
Whenever "Shangles" get wet, they reflect the light from the sky, and become solid gray in color. At a low angle, the fact that a couple of courses were off by a 1/4" on the standard 0-6-0 pattern sticks out.
Additionally, my rake boards are not parallel to each other. Using the standard pattern, this is obvious when you look at the rake edges. With the "random" pattern, this fact is disguised very well.
Please send comments under the new discussion.
Thanks for everyone's help, Don.
If you change the exposure you may cause problems with the seal-down strips on the shingles.
Going from the standard 5" to 4.5" isn't all that much of a change... just enought to hide the stupid fake shadow lines. If I were going down to 3.5", or if I were in an extreme wind zone, I would see your point.