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Discussion Forum

Aluminum vs. stainless flue liners

| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on July 18, 2003 09:28am

At least the boiler died when it was warm out so I have time to seek answers to some questions.  2 quotes for replacement units call for metal flue liners, one for aluminum and the other for stainless (at twice the price of Al).  I assume that stainless lasts longer but by how much compared to aluminum? How long will aluminum last? 

My other option is to go with a high efficiency power vented system ducted out a side wall.

Thanks,

Brian

Reply

Replies

  1. andybuildz | Jul 18, 2003 11:36pm | #1

    Just had a S.S liner put in my chimm for the heating unit. Cost me about $1200. (NY LI)

    Sure seemed easy enough to do yourself. Took them all of a cpl of hours.

    Don't wanna do everything myself so leavin some stuff to other trades..aren't I nice  : )

    a

     

     

    In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

    http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  2. User avater
    rjw | Jul 19, 2003 01:12am | #2

    Be sure the liner is rated for the type of fuel you're using.  I'm, not aware of any alum being rated for anything other than clothes dryers, but that might be a regional supply thing.

    _______________________

    10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

    11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 3:10-11

  3. sungod | Jul 19, 2003 02:16am | #3

    I guess you never threw a beer can into a bar B Q  or fireplace.    Ever see an aluminum pot when the water boils away?

    I might be wrong, but, why is a flue liner needed?  If you have a roaring fire and there is a hole in the stack, there would be a negative pressure sucking air into the stack.

    Dont tell me an idiot chimney sweeper told you have a hole in the chimney and it will let the fire burn your attic.    Has anyone seen flames come out the cracks in a chimney?

    1. User avater
      rjw | Jul 19, 2003 04:21am | #4

      I might be wrong, but, why is a flue liner needed?  If you have a roaring fire and there is a hole in the stack, there would be a negative pressure sucking air into the stack.

      Dont tell me an idiot chimney sweeper told you have a hole in the chimney and it will let the fire burn your attic.    Has anyone seen flames come out the cracks in a chimney?

      Flames, nope; sparks, yes.

      As a general rule you're right.  Persoanlly, I wouldn't  rely on general rules to keep my house from burning down.

      And are you claiming all those houses which have burned down over the years because of chimney fires wouldn't have burned down if there weren't "idiot chimney sweeps" out there?

      I suggest you reconsider exactly where that particular adjective should be applied.

      _______________________

      10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

      11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

      1 Corinthians 3:10-11

      Edited 7/18/2003 9:23:37 PM ET by Bob Walker

    2. Blisk | Jul 19, 2003 04:51am | #5

      Actually, the HVAC contractors brought up flue liners, I think it might be a code requirement but it makes sense for a 90 yr. old unlined masonry chimney like mine.  I'd be more worried about all the CO and other combustion products coming off the gas burner and leaking through voids in the mortar and into the house.

      As for doing it myself, climbing around on a 8 in 12 pitch roof 2 1/2 stories off the ground is for guys who bounce a lot better than I do.... besides I'm chicken.

      I'd like to know what average life on aluminum flue liners would be, are we talking less than 10 years? less than 15? Or should I move to someplace tropical?

      Thanks,

      Brian

      1. sungod | Jul 19, 2003 10:54am | #7

        I hoped I was WRONG, but after much research, I'm still right!  I went googoling under "chimney Fires"  All the quotes were the same.  No one has seen a cracked chimney cause a fire.  They all say a chimney fire sounds like a roaring train.  After a house is destroyed by a fire, the chimney still stands.  Look at a water heater draft diverter, its a BIG hole and gap in a flue liner, if its not plugged it pulls fresh air in.  I have see 4 metal fireplace stacks that were off set by an inch (not interlocked) and they still drawn out the combustion products.  Has ANYONE seen creosote build up?  Everyone, go look down your chimney, its coated with dry back carbon, not a sticky tar, that flammible.   Now, call a Chimney Sweep, he will gladly charge you for cleaning it.  I love Chimney Sweeps just as much as Heating duct cleaners.

        1. seeyou | Jul 19, 2003 02:45pm | #8

          The teepee or wigwam was a skin cone with a hole in the top to let the smoke from the fire in the middle out. It was also only slightly warmer inside than outside.  Today's houses are getting increasingly tighter and the heating units are getting more efficient. Because flue temperatures are lower, there is more condensation in the flue which accelerates deterioration of masonry flues, especially the unlined variety. Flues can become blocked. I've seen many types of animals living in chimneys (squirrels, birds, raccoons, etc.). I've seen wyeths that have fallen over, and old metal chimney covers that have rusted and collapsed. Your theory that "as long as there's a hole, it'll draw" is correct.  But, just because there was a hole yesterday, doesn't mean there's still one there today.

          I've also seen prefab flues with disconnected joints. And I've seen fires started by some and not by others.  I've seen single wall pipe run thru walls and ceilings in direct contact with wood.

          Regarding the buildup you're seeing at the top the chimney, that's mostly just ash. Most fireplaces don't create much creosote since most of the heat goes up the chimney. A chimney in the center of the house will normally have less buildup than one on the outside wall, since the outside of the chimney stays cold. Most of the creosote buildup is usually lower in the chimney, in and right above the smoke chamber. The biggest danger of the buildup in the flue of fireplaces is once again flue restriction. Take an 8x12 flue liner. The area of this flue is 96 sq. in. Add one inch of build up to all sides and you've got 6x10 - 60 sq. in.  The flue is (or should be) sized to the fireplace opening. The effective size is now 40% less - might cause some draft problems.

          Controlled combustion woodstoves can and do create large amounts of flammable creosote and need to be cleaned more frequently than fireplaces.

          What the chimney sweep's job is, is not just to clean the flue, but to make sure the products of combustion are leaving the dwelling as intended without igniting anything on the way. You don't have to hire one. You can build a new house around your still standing chimney, if you and your family don't die in the fire.

          I also felt the same way about duct cleaners until last week when I removed one of my cold air return vents. The return was almost completely clogged with cat hair (from the previous owner's cat). I vacuumed it out and could tell an immediate difference in the a/c. 

          Oh, and by the way, typing two words into Google ain't exactly complete research.

        2. User avater
          rjw | Jul 19, 2003 04:23pm | #9

          Has ANYONE seen creosote build up? 

          Yes.  As a home inspector, I see it often.  I am in a cooler climate and I suspect people burn a lot more fires than in Socal.

          Sungod.  Your draft analysis is right when things are operating the way they are supposed to.  Sometimes they don't and that's when they can become deadly.

          You mention water heaters.  They often spill flue gases at the draft bonnet opening.

          I'm curious as to what you base your opinions on?  For example, how many water heater bonnets have you checked for spillage?

          Theory is great, but it has to reflect reality; it doesn't dictate it._______________________

          10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

          11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

          1 Corinthians 3:10-11

          1. andybuildz | Jul 20, 2003 10:42am | #11

            When I looked in the trap door  of my chimmney cleanout down my basement and saw nothing but soot, it scared me....poisons backing into my house is what that spelled to me and when attempting to pull out the soot and seeing big chunks of concrete in there all crumbled it led me to reline it with a SS flue. 

             

            In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

            http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

          2. User avater
            rjw | Jul 20, 2003 03:39pm | #12

            You folks use natural gas or oil out there?

            _______________________

            10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

            11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

            1 Corinthians 3:10-11

          3. andybuildz | Jul 20, 2003 04:02pm | #13

            gas

              and it was actually gas utility inspector that said I should do it.

            a

             

            In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

            http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

            Edited 7/20/2003 9:04:48 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

          4. sungod | Jul 21, 2003 09:20am | #14

            I'm wrong, lots of people needs chimney sweeps.  Most people cant look down their own chimneys to see if they are plugged up or don't know how to open the damper.

          5. sungod | Jul 21, 2003 09:22am | #15

            I see spillage when there is a dryer in the same room with door.

          6. User avater
            rjw | Jul 21, 2003 10:30am | #16

            I see spillage when there is a dryer in the same room with door.

            Yep.  I also see spillage where the flue isn't high enough; where there's an exterior chimney with an orphaned water heater, and sometimes (not infrequently) for no apparent reason.

            _______________________

            10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

            11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

            1 Corinthians 3:10-11

        3. User avater
          BillHartmann | Jul 19, 2003 05:37pm | #10

          What does this thread have to do with chimney fires, chimney sweeps, or cresota?

          NOTHING!

          If you go back and check the orignal message he is talking about replacing a boiler. He did not say, but most likely not wood, but oil or gas.

          Much different reasons for having a liner.

  4. GUNN308 | Jul 19, 2003 08:00am | #6

    have you thought of Supra Flue it's a masonry grout that is poured/pumped down the chimney around a balloon which is then blown up and removed the next day, real slick.

  5. buildboy | Jul 29, 2003 03:46am | #17

    This is not really an answer to your question (sorry), but rather a suggestion. Get the names of the flue liner manufacturers and either call them or go on-line and see what each one claims. Or ask the subs for product literature.

    As for high-efficiency, power vented systems, I'm all for them. Just note that in general they do make some noise. So try and not point the exhaust towards the neighbors if you choose this option, unless of course you don't really like them...

  6. timeska | Jul 31, 2003 03:00am | #18

    I have seen alum and stainless fail in as little as a year. there are a lot of factors affecting longevity of both. if you choose stainless consider a higher grade like al294c it has a much higher resistance to acids. tim (chimney sweep)

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