am i taking advantage of the builder???
i’m getting ready to step off into new territory for me,needing to hire a builder to shell in a cabin about 300 miles away.it’s killing me not to be able to do this myself ,but with the distance involved it would take me 4 months to dry in and a crew will do it in 2 weeks.
so i’m looking at plans and kinda getting settled in on maybe 4or 5 possiblilites.
there is a local builder where this will be built at that has done alot of work in the area,his work is not what i would call high quality,but adequate,and what i gather from everyone,honest. he is very familer with how to work with the fairly steep terrian and other types of things that pop up when working in this area.
what i would like to do is call him,meet him at the lot,show him my different plans[these just consist of the pics in the plan books] ask his opinon on what would work the best and if this feature or that one would run the cost up,or what should stay no matter what.
now if i do this how obligated should i be to having him build it. when the time comes i’d like to be able to get a couple bids and go from there. should i ask in the first call to him if i could pay him for his time to come and look at what i got? [he does only live about 4 blocks from where this is at]this is a small community and i really don’t want him feeling like he came down and gave me all the info and then didn’t get the job,but when bid time comes i want to get a competive bid also.
bottom line i don’t want to have plans drawn and then find out that it won’t be able to be built without mods to the plans.
larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there’s not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Replies
I think that if you offer to pay him for his time, he will be happy to do it. It is an opportunity for him to sell himself and more importantly to help shape the project in ways that will suit his particular capabilities. He may waive the payment as a good will gesture. I would if, after talking to you, I wanted the job.
I hate it... but it's part of the job. Getting your tires kicked, I mean. His knowledge is worth something... otherwise you wouldn't be seeking it. If you had a Dr. come out to your house and examine your head, would you expect to be charged even if you didn't have him fix it?
Have him come out and answer your questions. Don't say anything about offering to pay him because he probably won't take it anyway. Sounds like a small town carpenter... probably works on a handshake and doesn't even know how much he makes in a year... as long as the bills get paid he's happy. But when you're done picking his brain, send him a big fat gift certificate to a local restaurant as a gesture of your appreciation of his time.
I'd sure appreciate it. Usually, unless I get the job, I just never hear from them again. No reach-around, nothing. Now I know how those chicks in college felt.
your right hos knowledge is worth a lot to me,i stand there and look at this lot that slopes at a 45 degree angle thinking how do you build on this? i like that idea of a gift certificate,pays him something for his time theres a resturant just down the road a mile that all the locals seem to eat at.
i think you have a pretty good grasp at where he's at bussiness wise.larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Edited 3/26/2008 7:57 pm by alwaysoverbudget
Good info and post.
Sounds about right.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
No reach-around, nothing. Now I know how those chicks in college felt.
I'd like to throw that in the quotes thread but I think I've nominated you a few too many times;-)
LOL.... yeah, I'm a real poet, huh?View Image
You should write a book. "Dieselpigitudes."
Kinda like "platitudes."
Nevermind....
Diesel, Where you been? what are you working on these days?
-Lou C
I agree you should offer him some insentive
Just tell him up front that you plan to get multiple bids, and let him decide how much time or advice he's willing to give under those circumstances.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I would love to find more customers as consciencioius (sp?) and considerate as you appear to be. For some reason many people think that its ok to pretend that you're the guy for them, pick your brain for valuable information then you never hear frorm them again... I say be upfront with him and if he wants to charge you as a consultant, pay him. If not thank him and go about your decision guilt free.
well i'm a virgin at hiring something like this done, i usally tackle it myself.,i'm about 90% done on my own house. but i do grasp the deal of wasting peoples time when you have no intent to use them.
if a guy bids a job and you decide not to use him ,thats all part of the game,but i use to have a bodyshop and once in a while you was writing a bid for someone that had no plans to fix,they was just out getting 20 estimates so they could turn in the 3 highest and pocket the money,thats why bodyshops starting charging for estimates. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
"but i do grasp the deal of wasting peoples time when you have no intent to use them."You mentioned that you are thinking of hiring him. That's much different than picking his brain with NO intention of hiring him. If he can't find ten minutes to look at your jobsite and meet with you, he aint worth hiring. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,To my understanding, he's not asking for ten minutes of time and a free estimate. Might be OK if you're a framer and he has the working plans in hand, and you want to give him an idea of what the framing labor costs are.But, (and this is a big but)He's asking this guy to help him decide WHAT plan (among many) is best suited to his lot AND what features from from that plan or any of the others would be suitable for this lot AND what other suggestions he may have to help decide which plan he should choose. And you think the questions will end there? There's septic, water, utilities, soil, brush and tree removal, surface water runoff, house orientation, driveway location, and I'm just scratching the the surface. These are all things that need to be considered , especially when picking a plan from a book. This is why he needs to talk to a local. And I seriously doubt this can be covered in two hours. Unless the site is level and located in a development where the answers to all these questions are pre-determined.I'm amazed how many guys here, who are in the business, support the idea of milking this guy for a bunch of valuable information, and then patting him on the back and saying "Thanks"Talk about a reach around.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
john,just to clarify what i am looking for at a first meeting,i would meet him at the lot.
first this lot has about a 25' elavation drop from street setback to the back of house. how does he suggest handling this,a basement then a 2 story house,maybe backfill to raise the build site elavation,how high does fill dirt run [very expensive having trucked in in this location]
second with some idea of elevation would plan 1,2,3 or 4 work best?
block or poured foundation?
you mentioned driveway location,that would probably be discussed,the rest of the issuse's are pretty much all determined by the location.
and finally as he stands there with a rough idea of what i want to build is he interested in a shell only or a completly finished build?
i don't see this taking a hour at the most ,it's all just pretty prelimanary discussion to get things headed in the right direction.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Larry,First off I'm a bit grumpy tonite, but I stand by everything I've said so far.Also, I'm not usually a smarta$$, but if the situation was as easy as you say it is, what do you need his advice for? I don't know your background(you say you could do this job yourself if it was only closer) but it seems like anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of building could make the decisions you speak of.So it appears to me he has specialized knowledge you would like to tap into, or you just want another set of eyes to confirm the ideas you already have. Either way, pay the man for his time and expertise, that's why you want to meet with him.The Golden Rule is a wonderful concept, let's all put it to use!John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
one of the big "oh sheit how do i do this" deals is i live in the flat lands of kansas.we have 25' elevation changes about every 25 miles,theres not a rock in site,you want to dig and put a basement in,just mark it and dig 8'. and i am concerned about getting a concrete pumper in to the site,there's trees everywhere. here in kansas if you have 2 trees on your lot ,the realtor advertises it as "wooded" and that 's no bull.
so i don't want to get plans all drawn up that brings in 50 loads of dirt to build up the site ,to find out it cost 20k.or have plans drawn for icf and then find out a pumper won't be able to get there that the walls need to be block.
to tell you the truth once the foundation is in place,i don't have no questions ,it's the same as building here other than some high ladders or scaffolding.
the golden rule is what i'm asking about,is this a service that should be compensated for or is it part of bidding on a job. to tell you the truth i feel it's a little of both.if i was in his postion and i could save the guy the 20k in fill i would think that would get me a few points for getting the job later,for just a little time invested. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
See, you need advice from this man to keep you from spending thousands of dollars needlessly.You don't want to feel obligated to this man to use his services later.Stop twisting the Golden Rule to justify how you think he should treat you.Your the one who wants HIM to save you thousands.Do what you know is right. Pay him.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
In the first phone call I would tell him I'd like to hire him as a consultant to help me figure out what house to build, that I will probably put it out to bid, but based on what I've heard he would be my first choice to build as long as prices are in line.
He may decide it will help him get the job if he gives you more time now. He may decide that he might not get the job, so might as well get paid now. Either way won't matter to you in the end, so offer to pay him his "consulting fee" now.
IF after looking over the site with you and helping you decide what you want, he says don't worry about paying him, THEN send him $100 gift certificate to a local restaurant.
THAT's how I'd want to be treated. With honesty and respect for my time and experience.
i'd get it ironed out on the phone call... tell him what you told us.... more or less... tell him you'd like to hire him as a consultantand you were thinking of $200..
let him respond to thatif he's good , he'll get your $200 AND your trustif he's so-so... he'll get your $200....you get your consultation and a clear conscience......and you go out to bidMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The problem I have with that offer MIke is that he might spend have to offer $200 ten time to weed out the yahoos. Or, maybe there aren't any yahoos in the building business? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Larry, I see your meeting as the first step in a possibly long relationship. The builder has to find a way to interview you to see if he wants to build for you. You have to interview him to see if you want to use him. If a builder refuses to spend any free time to evaluate their potential clients, I doubt that he would work much.If he's wily, he may choose to hold his valuable information tight to his chest when he interviews you. I would. I'd give some tidbits but I'd refuse to give you much more than my company presentation unless we formed some form of agreement about why I should tell you more. That might include a contract for design services or an hourly consultation fee. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I was wondering if anyone else felt the way about it as I do and was glad to see your posts. Why don't we pay for what we feel services are worth (as we would like to be paid for ours) instead of thinking how little we can get away with paying? Seems like the world would be a better place if we treated others as we would like to be treated! I guess that's why I'm not a businessman and why I'm not rich, but I can usually sleep at night.
Thanks!It surprises me that some people act as if an hour or two of someone's time is no big deal. How many of them would be willing to take two hours out of their workday to talk to their boss about a work related problem, and have him dock their pay for that two hours? And then their advice on the issue ends up saving the company $5,000 to $10,000? And then maybe the boss sends them a gift certificate to the local diner?And guess what, in this case it's probably probably going to be on a Saturday morning after he's put in a full work week. What difference does it make that it's a small town???? Or that he lives ten minutes away?????? Those are legitimate reasons to take advantage of someone???????????????????? Amazing, simply amazing.......John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Svenny
Where did you and Danno see that Larry was trying to get the guy to come out and give him a free consult?
I didnt see it anywhere, matter of fact Larry mentioned that he didnt want to take advantage of the guy seeings as how he was going to bid the job out.
Just wondering where you read that he was trying to get work for free out of the guy!
Doug
"Where did you and Danno see that Larry was trying to get the guy to come out and give a free consult?"Uh...the very first post. By asking if he should offer to pay the guy. If getting the advice for free wasn't an option, why ask if he should offer to pay?John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Svenny
Uh...the very first post.
Uh...where!
twist it any way you wanna but that don't make it so! You can read between the lines and come up with any number of scenarios, don't make any of em right!
My feelings on it is if Larry wanted to beat the guy out of a consultation fee then he'd of just did it and would never of came on here to ask the question, but like yours its just my opinion.
Doug
John I haven't seen one post here saying that the builder doesn't DESERVE to be compensated for his time. And I haven't seen any posts where anyone said that an hour or two of this guy's time is "no big deal". Not a one. If I started charging for every framing bid I put together or 'meet and greet' that I attend (which inevitably turns into a Q&A consultation) I'd be out of business in no time. Should I be compensated for this time... he22 yeah. Unfortunately I live on planet Earth.. and have to play the hand that is dealt to me.
If the guy won't accept any money for this (and I'm betting he won't) what's the OP supposed to do? Tie the guy down and stuff his wallet full of cash? Charging for estimates or initial site visits/consultations is the exception not the rule. If you manage to get compensated fairly for your time in these situations then count your blessings. But you and a handful of others are on an island with that one. The rest of us live in Rome... and when in Rome.... This is why I suggested a gift certificate as a TOLKEN of his appreciation.
I'd love to see a blind poll taken here asking how many of us get paid for our estimates. You think I can get paid for my estimates here in the suburbs of Boston? The GC's running the jobs I'm bidding on aren't even getting paid for their estimates! And we're talking $1million dollar plus jobs as the norm. I'm starting an ADDITION next month..... $105K for the frame and exterior trim. Took me 10 hours to put my framing quote together.
Around here.... if you want to work.... you quote the jobs and hope you get 'em. If you don't quote 'em.... you're definitely not gonna get 'em. And you ain't getting paid to do 'em. Not me, not you, not anyone. Do I think it's fair? No way. But I like eating so I do 'em. Principles don't pay the bills.
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Edited 3/27/2008 9:41 pm ET by dieselpig
heh, heh, hehMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I knew you'd weigh in sooner or later on this. LOL.... let's leave it alone so you and I don't end up wrestling on the show floor tomorrow. :)View Image
#1) You're taking the OP''s first post about asking the contractor for a consultation into a discussion on whether we should charge for estimates.
He doesn't want an estimate or a bid at the first meeting. He doesn't want a "meet and greet" (as a matter of fact he tells us he already has an opinion of the contractors work-that it isn't that great, just adequate). He wants advice on how he can save money on his project (probably thousands of dollars) before he pays someone to even draw plans for him.
That's not bidding or estimating. That's called consulting. If you don't see the difference I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you.
.
.
.#2) You say no one has posted that a couple of hours is no big deal. Every post that makes comments such as this comment by you:"Have him come out and answer your questions. Don't say anything about offering to pay him because he probably won't take it anyway. Sounds like a small town carpenter... probably works on a handshake and doesn't even know how much he makes in a year... as long as the bills get paid he's happy. But when you're done picking his brain, send him a big fat gift certificate to a local restaurant as a gesture of your appreciation of his time."or the OP's comment:
"the golden rule is what i'm asking about,is this a service that should be compensated for or is it part of bidding on a job. to tell you the truth i feel it's a little of both.if i was in his postion and i could save the guy the 20k in fill i would think that would get me a few points for getting the job later,for just a little time invested."or wallyo's comment:
"I think what is being overlooked is what is customary for the area, Some areas you pay for bids / consulting as you describe some areas you don't. I think you call him let him know that he is only your first call You will be calling others, but you feel because of his closeness to the site you would like to start with him tell him he has that in his favor. Tell him you have three plans in mind have not decided on any can you meet him at the site for an hour or 2 and then take him to lunch to talk it over. Keep the on site visit to the time you state if 2 hours do not go any further. Ask straight out " What is customary for this service is there a charge and how much"? Chances are he will say No. At that point you can push it or let it drop."All of these are suggesting that it's no big deal.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
man i didn't know i was asking such a explosive question!
first my background/profession is autobody repair, in over 30 years i never charged 15 cents for a estimate,did i know sometimes they were just wasting my time,you bet! but ya know what his buddy might wreck his car and he would tell him about me and i'd get a job.oh by the way in that 30 years never had a yellow page ad or spent any money on advertising,word of mouth thats it.well now i'm retired from that and playing landlord,alot of people waste my time on that deal to,but it's called self employment and thats what it takes.
now if you step back 10 years ago i wouldn't have even asked this question,if the guy wants my bussiness he's going to have to put in a little sales time to get it.
but i stumbled on to this little site with a bunch of builders and they are always discussing,charging for estimates,people just using them up time wise. so i've been made wiser to the other side's view. so i'm trying to keep that from happing here on this deal.
theres nothing i hate more than getting obligated to someone,maybe thats the reason i started this post,was if he comes out and doesn't want any money for his consulation,how do i handle when it comes time for a bid ,he comes in 8k higher than someone else that can do the job,i feel guilty.thats why i would prefer to pay,then i can do anything i want with a clear consice.
do you think when i stood there advising someone on there car at no cost i didn't know that this would play into the decision sooner or later,i seem like a good guy that doesn't want to screw them.it was called goodwill. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
from page one:
"now if i do this how obligated should i be to having him build it. when the time comes i'd like to be able to get a couple bids and go from there. should i ask in the first call to him if i could pay him for his time to come and look at what i got? [he does only live about 4 blocks from where this is at]this is a small community and i really don't want him feeling like he came down and gave me all the info and then didn't get the job,but when bid time comes i want to get a competive bid also."
i had to go back and read what i had wrote to see what i said that said i wanted to use this guy up.
here's the sentence:"should i ask in the first call if i could pay him for his time"
as in "i'm not assuming his time is free,but a what point is it appropriate to discuss his fee."
now maybe you take the comment about the small town as my attitude that if you live in small town usa you don't need to make money.thats not what i mean.i mean it's a small community and when i'm done building using him or some other builder,he's my neighbor,because there is only maybe 15 house's between him and my lot and i don't want any bad feelings either way.
the bottom line is ,and i think i posted this but if not here it is,this is probably the guy who's going to do the project,barring any crazy bids. why? because he can build me a house that won't fall down,seems to pay his bills,because he is still in bussiness,and people like him as a neighbor. i really don't need dovetails on my 2x's so thats as good of a craftsman as i need.
oh and i need a definition on "MEETand GREET" seems like you wouldn't be expected to be paid for that. do you not ask any questions during that time,just talk about the weather? larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Edited 3/28/2008 12:05 am by alwaysoverbudget
Edited 3/28/2008 12:09 am by alwaysoverbudget
larry, i think you're doing just fine.was there a customer in the past that you would squeeze in... do the extra things for, go out of your way to please ?put yourself in that model....
you do know there are intangibles besides money that makes people want to do businessMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Don't put me in with the others I am not asking for a free ride I am telling the OP to Make every offer to pay the man, to be up front and inform him where he is at in the planing process. In some areas of the country a visit like this is part of the job, others one would pay for it all depends on the local economy.Wallyo
Edited 3/28/2008 12:37 am ET by wallyo
John, since you're claiming to have a better understanding of what I'm "suggesting" than I do myself.... we'll have to leave this one alone. Tough to argue with that brand of logic. But for the record..... I do think the guy's time is valuable.... same as my time is valuable... and I never said otherwise. Have a good day.
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In my business, I frequently spend a considerably amount of time developing a proposal/bid for a project - sometimes more than a week. About half the time, the bid also involves travelling (flying) to defend the proposal, which usually takes a day. All of this work, and travel expense, is at my business' expense. This is all billed to ourselves as "business development cost", which we consider to be the part of the cost of doing business. I'm sure everybody would like to get paid for every hour that they work, but that isn't really how things usually work (unless you are an hourly employee).
nathar,This discussion started with a pretty simple question. Reader's digest condensed version:
"I need advice on choosing a proper plan, and situating my house on a sloped lot. Should I offer to pay this builder for this advice, so that I won't feel obligated to choose him when it's time to get bids?"It has morphed into a discussion on giving free bids vs. charging for bids. My answer was yes, you should pay him for the service you want, consultation on how to best build on this lot.The bidding and estimating will come later.But a bunch of people here are so he11 bent on giving away their services for free, that they tell a man who said he was willing to pay for this service to go for the free advice instead. John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
You say his work is average, but he's honest and knows local conditions. You want his opinion on how to design and plan your job. But you want the right to use his ideas and shop them. And you want people on this forum to make you feel all warm and fuzzy that you would send him a gift certificate to the local diner.
!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????
What the hel1? You should be ashamed you are even asking this question.
You're using him as a consultant. Pay him as a consultant.
Dam
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
that's exactly why i did post this,this is a new world for me to be hiring someone.i'm not the one that said hey i'll buy him a supper and call it even.but i do see it playing out with"what do i owe you" and he'll tell me not to bother.so buying a supper is just a gesture of thanks.
to tell you the truth i would absolutely prefer for him to tell me it's 200.00 a hour to come give me some advice.i'd pay it in a minute. then i have no obligation whats so ever when it's time to get bids to build. i will no matter what have him bid this job.so if nothing else this meeting is a good time to sell himself a little that no one else will have,and see if he wants to work for me.
oh,if i want to feel warm and fuzzy there's a lot better sites to be on than this one with a bunch of guys in overalls.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Then don't ask "What do I owe you"Tell him you need advice from someone with knowledge and experience of local conditions. Tell him you have $200 budgeted for site consultation, and would that be enough for two hours of his time on your site to discuss your project. If you spend half a day there pay him more.It could (and probably will be) the best $200 you spend. It could save you thousands down the road.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Small town...four blocks...free estimates.
Meet with him and buy him a coffee.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If it's true that you just need information on site conditions and foundation
"to tell you the truth once the foundation is in place,i don't have no questions ,it's the same as building here other than some high ladders or scaffolding."
then maybe you should talk to a foundation guy
I ran into two somewhat similar situations.
In one situation, I was trying to decide between two different heating systems. I had a firm grasp of all the issues, pros and cons, and all I really needed was to know the cost differential between the two. So, I talked to a couple of heating contractors and asked them to draw me up a quote for the two different types of systems so that I could make my decision.
One of the contractors I talked to suggested I hire him as a consultant to figure out the best type of heating system, and then if he puts the eventual system in - good for him. I told him that I really didn't need that, all I needed was a quote for the two different systems, but he kept pushing the consultant idea. I went with a different contractor.
In the other situation, I was planning a building project and kicked around a few ideas with a GC I had used before while he drew up an estimate. I don't think he spent a huge amound of time on my questions. I got a few other estimates as well, and I certainly intended to use that GC if he was in the ballpark. Unfortunately, he was $20,000 over the others. So, there wasn't much I could do. I thanked him for his time and opinions, but I had to go with another contractor.
I think it all depends on how much time these questions are going to take him. If you're talking through the estimate process and you're asking him some basic questions, that's probably not a big deal. If you're asking him to draw up different bids based on 7-8 different scenarios, that's not something that someone will do without getting paid.
Bottom line, be honest and upfront about what you're doing and let him decide what he wants to do.
I think what is being overlooked is what is customary for the area, Some areas you pay for bids / consulting as you describe some areas you don't. I think you call him let him know that he is only your first call You will be calling others, but you feel because of his closeness to the site you would like to start with him tell him he has that in his favor. Tell him you have three plans in mind have not decided on any can you meet him at the site for an hour or 2 and then take him to lunch to talk it over. Keep the on site visit to the time you state if 2 hours do not go any further. Ask straight out " What is customary for this service is there a charge and how much"? Chances are he will say No. At that point you can push it or let it drop. Also ask if he has any on going job/s that you can see as a sample of his work, you may be impressed. Don't waste his time have a list of all your questions and a copy to leave with him, so if you do not get to them he may be able to e mail an answer.
Otherwise hire a designer or Architect for this part. ( In my area building on a hillside requires an stamped drawing from an engineer for the foundation. So this type of site visit will cost me, it has already 1200 for a topo map, my lot is relatively flat 13 foot in 115 feet, You bet an engineer will charge).
Wallyo
Edited 3/27/2008 2:54 pm ET by wallyo
If not for the line aobut the quality of his work, I'd suggest emailing him a link to this thread.
Joe H
Everyone is assuming this contractor is just a poor hick and won't be able to sell himself.
What my boss or I would be likely to do is meet Larry on site, have a look at his plans, walk the site, suggest which plan might work best or good things about a couple of plans. Then, suggest we use the design as a starting point for a design that really fits the site, because none of the stock ones will.
So it becomes an hour or two sales call; if we get it, most of our time is paid after that.
mike,thats sounds like what i'm looking for,your just down the road oh maybe 1300 miles,do you travel? lol larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
50 cents a mile plus travel time, I'll be there in two days....
I agree Mike. The builder is in charge of his own selling style. He'll know when to stop the "meet and greet" and get down to the business of selling. If he is sharp, he'll get to that point in the initial phone conversation.Builders have to understand that there are several different hats to wear. Sales is a different hat than the building consultant hat. Most sales persons work for free until a commission is earned. Big risk? Yes but big reward too! Building consultants work by the hour and establish their worth in the sales presentation. They do that by creating rapport and earning the trust of the buyer through their sales presentation. At some point, the consultant must step up and ask for the close on the building consultation aspect of the job. Larry doesn't seem like a hard sell on some simple consultaion fees. If this builder fails to get paid....we can't blame Larry! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07