We just had our second storey deck repaired/replaced in Long Island. The job took 2 weeks. We told the guy at the beginning (before any materials were delivered) that we would expect lien waivers before we wrote the final check and reminded him several times throughout the job. 1 day before the finish of the job he went up to my husband and said he didn’t know what a lien waiver was and neither did his insurance agent (?). My husband explained that he needed to get them from his suppliers so that we know our materials were paid for. Yesterday he finished the deck and my husband refused to write the final check.
Today he called me. He is completely irate, saying that he wouldn’t have taken the job if he knew we were going to do this. He doesn’t get billed by the lumberyard until December 10 and that is when he is planning to pay the bill and not a day before. His credit is good and “that just isn’t the way business is done on Long Island. I don’t know how they did it in Utah but we don’t do that here!”. I explained to him that as far as I’m concerned, I already paid for the materials and he should just pay the bill from that and get the lien waiver. I further explained that if he backed off a roof next week and didn’t pay his bill December 10 that I would be expected to pay for the materials twice. I finally said I would call the lumberyard (and I will) to check on his credit there, but I really have no intention of writing the check without the lien waiver. If they’ve known him for 30 years and won’t write a waiver based on his good credit, I don’t see why I should trust him for it either.
Am I doing the right thing in standing my ground? I don’t want to be the horrible client, but I also don’t want to get burned. Are lien waivers really so out of the ordinary?
Yes, if you also go to BT Classic you might have seen this same post there. There are people I respect at both sites.
Replies
If the guy didn't know what a lien wavier is he's an idiot and ought not be in the contracting business. (I'd wonder about the quality of the work he did.)
Whether or not lein waviers are common or not for a deck repair I'll leave it for others to say. They certainly are reasonable (if not common) in more complex projects.
Thanks Dan. The materials were several thousand dollars and while it might be a drop in the bucket for a whole house build it represents several years of saving for us. His work is OK, although not the way we would have done it. We do have a few things that we will be doing to bring it up to our standards.
I think I'm done with contractors and will go back to DIY. I convinced my husband to hire somebody for this because it is a high deck and we'd never done one over 4 feet high. I was picturing the 2 of us trying to raise the beams (we're new and have no friends yet) and felt that maybe it would be better to be done with professionals. Now I realize again that the agita is not worth it.
Yeah, I do a lot of DIY simply because I know I can't find someone to do a better job. We built our own multilevel deck, but had help from several friends and relatives, especially for some of the high work. (Positioning the top beam for the covered upper deck was especially scary.)
my favorite quote ,not the way I would have done it ....
never had a home owner say that to me yet but it is a good one .
and to say because a carpenter does not no what a lein wavier is, does bad work is not fair
I am not really sticking up for anyone but ,it is getting a little tireing hearing people putting others down all the time .
what happend to trust ,and if someone makes 1 little mistake they are picked apart ,
I am sure as homeowners they picked this guy from previous work references ,checked him out first if not shame on them
and if he has credit he will pay his suppliers ,why would you not
I have never had a lein wavier for a deck before ,and I pay my suppliers once a month ,so I do bad work as well
well you got what you wanted a guy to come in frame the deck you did not want to do .
it is done .not the way you have done it but done .
you should post some pic's .then someone can say it's bad not until then .
tough call for me I just see this poor carpenter getting craped on because he does not know what a lein wavier is .
maybe all the locals trust the guy ,so he never needed one before ,
maybe he will put a lein on your property for not paying him .And should he not have signed the lein wavier before any work began, a contract maybe so this is a 2 sided thing here .but next time he will know ,and so will you ,
I never said the guy should have given lien waviers, I just said that if he's in the biz and he doesn't know what they are he's an idiot. And if he takes the job knowing that waviers are a requirement without figuring out what's meant he's an idiot and a liar.
I don't know what threshold is for asking for lien waviers, and likely it varies across the country. I probably wouldn't have asked for a wavier on a simple job were under $10K or so was at risk, but would certainly consider it for a larger job. Many "well recommended" contractors turn out to have serious money problems even in good times, and it's much more likely to be the case in today's economy.
Or are you telling us you had no idea what a lien wavier is prior to this thread??
I am just tired of hownowners complaining on here,do your homework
,and it is sad that good contractors get brought down
I work for the love of the job not to please everyone else.
and Dan H are you calling me an idiot if I did not know what a lein wavier was,not nice
think before you speak .to someone you do not know .
not everyone needs a lien wavier ,
,
There's a difference between simply "not doing" lien waviers and not knowing what they are. Anyone in construction contracting should have basic familiarity with the business/insurance/financial lingo, including lien waviers, liability wavers, certificates of insurance, etc. Note again I'm not saying that they should do all these things, but they should know vaguely what they are.
Someone who doesn't have that degree of knowledge shouldn't be running a contracting business.
(I will grant, though, that the guy may have heard "lien wavier" but thought "liability wavier", or perhaps a certificate of liability insurance. Such a document would have been delivered at the start of the project, though, and I don't recall the OP mentioning such a thing.)
I guess I didn't read where someone said because he doesn't know what a lien waiver is, he does bad work.
I agree w/ Dan ... not knowing what a lien waiver is ... he's an idiot. Doesn't mean he doesn't know how to build. Just mean he's a bit green in the business side of things.
And not knowing what the lien waiver is and not asking his client or finding out ... he's a fool and an idiot. And he also shouldn't expect payment before his bills for the job are paid ... which is what his client wants to be assured of.
Yeah, they both have responsibilities and if the client has expectations, they could/should have been addressed well in advance and in writing ... ideally. But the client's request wasn't particularly out of line ... even w/out a big legal contract.
Huh??
And he also shouldn't expect payment before his bills for the job are paid
That's ridiculous. My payment schedule with a client has nothing to do at all with when I pay my vendors. Why should it? And what do you think, I'm going to provide proof of payment made to every client for every purchase I make of materials for their job?
Almost everything I buy is on credit with the vendor, net 10 end of month, sometimes net 30 EOM. Suppose you hire me to work, and I start on November 1st. On November 1st I buy a bunch of materials and work for a week on your house. I finish and clear out by November 10th. My terms with you are that you pay me within 5 days of completion, so I get your check on November 15th. I won't even get my billing statement from my vendors until a few days after December 1st. Around December 5th I will process ALL of the payables that are in my office and send out checks or electronic payments. This is like clockwork and has been for years. I deal with all payments to everyone around the 5th of every month.
In theory, I am not using my money to work on your house. I am using your money. I get the materials without ADVANCE money from you but once they are installed and the job is done (or reaches a payment milestone) you pay me. I take that money and use it to pay the vendors, and I do that after they send me a statement.
In reality, sometimes (often) I get to a vendor billing cycle and pay for materials BEFORE I get to a payment milestone on a job and get paid by the customer. I try not to do this but it happens and I have often advanced a LOT of money into my jobs. Trust goes both ways.
I agree that the contractor in this thread is a little bit of a dope, but I'm not sure what kind of business you're running either? Do you settle every purchase you make in cash or with a check on the spot?
David
Your well explained method of doing business is not unusual, there are plenty of us that work on the same terms.
On my cost plus jobs I often have to call the sub, ask for the amount before they invoice me. In that case it is to have the amount for that portion of the job so I can include it in either the partial or full billing. My terms of payable upon rcpt. will still often bring me payment within a week.
Of course there'd be no sub or material lien waiver presented, until I pay my sub-which will be after invoice. Trust is a two way street and I'm thankful for the situations which make it almost automatic. Direct referral has many upsides.
I'm referring, I think to a large purchase that is delivered to the address. I received a lien notice from the vendor when my contractor had a flatbed of drywall delivered to the site. A reasonable move. Did I ask that he prove payment of every little thing ... of course not and the vendor can't prove those purchases were for my project, so the contractor is on the hook for the misc materials he buys and takes away from the lumber yard.
The client has every right to expect that such proof of payment was made for big ticket purchases made and delivered to the job site. It's reasonable for the vendor and the owner. Chances are, the contractor may still be on site when his bill becomes due, so the release will be there before the owner pays.
Aim
While I personally would be insulted with these requests, if known well in advance I would comply with this caveat. We exchange waivers for all subs and material along with the final payment.
Not one of my referrals nor regular customers have ever requested a waiver and these have been jobs in the tens of thousands of dollars.
An example of my dropping over dead b/4 the bills were paid is about as realistic as me anticipating you running off because your bills are going to bury you and the bank is coming to take your house.
It is a shame an adversarial relationship has to insert itself in the service industry-but from nightmare examples I guess that is the result.
I also find it a pity you couldn't have found someone you each could feel confident with. Andy's there in Cold Spring Harbor and I'm thinking there were others affiliated with these forums that might have been of some help. However, from past experience a referral from here is not a guaranteed gift from god.
The part where you say the contractor didn't do it as you would have done it. What does that mean exactly? Is the appearance not to your liking? Did you not know what the end result was going to be?
Sorry to hear you are done with working with all contractors-bad news for the good ones out there.
Actually I posted a comment on this forum to Andy C asking if he worked out in my area or could recommend someone, but didn't get an answer. That certainly would have been my preference.
The average
small-time contractor has never had to deal with a lien release and probably doesn't have the document on hand to execute. So, he probably didn't really know what you meant, how to get it, etc.
And, as the party asking for the lien release, YOU should have provided the document to him with instructions about who was to sign it, what it needed to include, etc.
Do you know where he bought all the materials, what they cost, and who has signing authority for the vendor(s) in question? Do you know what it takes to make a lien release actually stick, and what it takes to make a lien stick?
To me it sounds like you wanted reasonable protection but didn't do a good job of it. You should have had a written contract with the guy and it should have included the lien release form you wanted to use. Your pre-contract meeting should have covered how to execute the document so that he knew what to do.
Of course, you're saying that the HO should have more business sense than the contractor.
They seem
to think they do and that it's necessary.
I do not agree with Amish that the materials have to be delivered to the site in order to qualify for a lien. At least that's not part of the system here in WA.
And, there are frequent situations where I do not have an invoice in hand when I receive materials. My yard will deliver to my jobsites without an invoice. I get the invoice in my end-of-month billing, which is normally fine. I can go in and ask for it earlier if it matters.
How did the materials get to your place? Did the lumberyard deliver them?
If the guy haules them himself, you're in the clear as far as any future lien from the lumberyard is concerned. If the lumberyard delivered, then you need to get the lien waivers.
30 years in business and he never heard of this? My barnyard memories are stirring. I suspect things like the lack of a license, recycled materials, perhaps he paid cash at HD himself. Or, even, an outright con in progress.
Naturally, I assume the job has a written contract. A decent contract will spell out reasons for witholding the final 'retention' payment - and lack of lien waivers is on the list.
He doesn't pay until billed? Not your problem; after all, you've been paying him all along, haven't you.
Now ... fast forward for a 'reality check.' How much would the materials cost you at Home Depot? If you've paid him at least that much, there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to pay the supply house. Of course, if the retention will get you the waiver, you might offer to go to the supplier and pay him directly. After all, it's the supplier that issues the waiver, not the contraqctor.
If his receipts show your address and are marked 'paid in full,' there's no need for a waiver. Just make copies.
As I recall, the situation can get astoundingly messy in some cases. IIRC, who delivers isn't deciding factor in most states, and even if your name/address isn't on the invoice the lumber yard (or whoever) can still go after you, if they can show that you received the materials. And, or course, workers can also file liens against the property if they don't get paid by the contractor.
Think about it: Fred steals a car and sells it to you. Even if you have no idea it's stolen, you're still out the money you paid Fred if the police come to collect the car. The same "claw back" principle applies in situations like Bernie Madoff, et al.
But, as you suggest, this suggests someone who probably never passed even a simple contractor's licensing exam. Not a lot of business sense -- precisely the type to get in too deep and bail when the music stops and there's not enough money.
(OTOH, a lot of contractors, especially when starting out, operate hand-to-mouth. I think one should be willing to work with them -- meet them halfway -- if they're reasonably up front about their circumstances.)
I've done lien releases
with a few of my subs here. They've been in business successfully for 20-30 years and never been asked before. It only happens when the client is highly experienced.
Does "highly experienced"
Does "highly experienced" mean "burned before"?
Experienced
usually means they have been involved in high dollar construction. Last guy that asked me to get lien waivers on a job has built buildings that you might have been in. He might have asked me to see if I knew what to do.
I've rarely heard of a sub or material supplier successfully perfecting a lien. it requires filing a lawsuit and you have to hope you are not junior to anyone else. A lot of properties already have mortgages on them. I have seen a few lienholders paid recently when the property changed hands in an orderly sale, and a lot more who were wiped out when the bank took the whole thing back, especially in the last 1-2 years. I never do business with anyone without reading their property record first.
How will they show
it was delivered to you or your received the materials if your name/address isn't on the invoice?
If they delivered to your address, it will likely be on the invoice/order for them to do so.
The delivery guy signs an affidavit stating where he delivered the stuff? It was an oddball item and your house is the only one in that end of the state with that installed?
Lien Wavers
>>>Are lien waivers really so out of the ordinary?<<<
Due to the state of the economy people are getting more educated on how to protect their money, but did you ask for a license or insurance coverage?
Being familiar with commercial construction it is automatic, they then might hold you payment up to 90days.
The only thing you can do is cover you AZZ!
Like ... Amish (I think) said ... it's not your problem that he won't pay for the materials until later when he's billed at the end of the month. If the lumber yard considers him a good risk, they'll sign the waiver no problem. If not, they'll decline until he pays the monthly bill.
It's OK for him to not know what the lien waiver is ... it is not OK for him to agree to your terms w/out either asking you what it is you want or finding out from someone what you want (his supplier should know). Then for him to 'blow up' at the 11th hour tells me he is somewhat untrustworthy. Not a good way to conduct business. He needs to cool it, until he is at least as educated as much as you about the situation/request.
You informed him up front of your requirements. Standing your ground means you have integrity. For him to be 'irate' is unreasonable and inexcusable. Even more reason to stand your ground. People who say 'yeah no problem' and then get irate because they want you to ignore your original agreement make my intuition buzz me and makes me want to be very careful.
He still has some business experience to gain, it sounds like and learn to cool it a bit until he knows what's going on and what is expected of him.
All that said, I'd maybe be inclined to cut the guy a little slack.
When we had our house reroofed the first time the contractor was fairly new to the biz. He did a great job, but when we inspected prior to final payment there were some problems with the cap shingles. I reminded him that final payment (half the total) was contingent on the job being COMPLETE and he didn't argue. He got the problems fixed in 24 hours and I paid him.
Only after I paid him did he tell me that he had to hustle to the bank because his workman's comp payment (or something like that) would be leaving him overdrawn. If he'd told me up front I'd have given him half the half -- I can understand how, especially starting out, things can get tight at times. It's not about screwing the other guy, it's just guarding your own assets.
So the consensus seems to be mixed.
Yes, I did get proof of insurance before work began and also looked up his licensing with the county before calling him. I realize that trust is important in a contractor relationship, but I'm sort of the "trust, but verify" type I guess. Yes, materials were delivered directly to my home, so suppliers could in fact come after me. I'd have been happy to provide forms for him if he needed them, but I think the suppliers keep them on hand as well. This guy is not new, he's been in business 30 years.
I spoke with the 2 lumberyards today. One of them said she was sending out the lien release directly to my home and added that "he's a good guy" so I don't need to worry about him not paying his bills. The other said that she couldn't send it out until the bill was paid, but that he has always been on time with payment. When I inquired she said that less than 1% of homeowners ask for waivers. So maybe I am unreasonable. The thing is, $300,000 worth of materials on commercial construction is probably a SMALLER percentage of their annual revenues than the materials for this deck were of my annual salary. If I had to pay for it twice, I couldn't. That was my reason for wanting it.
"Not the way I would have done it". I don't think there is sufficient blocking, there is slight movement in the deck and the stairs. I also like simpson ties between beams and posts - I'd think that in a place that could get a hurricane that would be standard. I will add both of these and feel better regardless of whether they are necessary. Worst from my standpoint is there is a 2 foot section where they didn't bother to flash - they ripped off the small skirt board (or whatever the angled piece of wood that was between stories on the siding) where formerly the decking stopped short of it, and then ran the decking up to the hole. I can see the edge of the subfloor through the hole. Not the way I would have done it, and now I get to try and fix it with no room to work.
I think his reaction speaks louder than anything. In business 30 years and he acts/reacts like that?!! Come on. And like you said, if he generates a fair amount of work, his hanging out for a few more days for payment shouldn't be a big deal. My concrete contractor started work and had to wait a month or two for me to sort out some permiting details. Never asked for reimbursement for his crew's labor. I didn't pay him until the second pour ... the foundation walls on the footings. Then again months later w/ the slab. And he didn't know me from Adam.
Whether you were picky or not. You gave him adequate notice about your stance in advance. His reaction was completely uncalled for, IMO. He should at least respect your need to want to protect yourself. If it were his money hanging out, he'd want to secure it as well.
The detail of the unflashed area seems to me to be fairly significant (and awkward to fix). Did the inspector approve his approach?
You mention several "concerns" with the work, was this job permitted? , if so, was it final inspected and did it pass? The "concerns" you mention seem like they would be part of the code in any part of the country.
Geoff
When I contacted the city before we started the job they said that repair of an existing deck did not need permitting. If we changed it then we would need drawings, etc.
I don't think there is sufficient blocking, there is slight movement in the deck and the stairs. I also like simpson ties between beams and posts - I'd think that in a place that could get a hurricane that would be standard. I will add both of these and feel better regardless of whether they are necessary.
Something to think about. Suppose you made these modifications to the deck, and two years down the road, there is a significant problem with the deck. You call the contractor, he comes and looks at it, notes the modifications, and says he is not responsible - and legally, he is correct. If you alter another person's work, you generally take on liability for that work.
Good point. On the other hand, having him come back 2 years down the road when he has already gotten mad at me for holding the check 1 extra business day while I talked to his suppliers may be an issue as well :)