Replies

1. 
   Sphere | Jul 04, 2007 02:48pm | #1

   PT plate will eat the nails. Tapcons are rated for PT. Tho.

    

1. 
   loucarabasi | Jul 04, 2007 02:58pm | #2

   Thanks, I have tapcons leftover from another job, I'll use them

   Thanks, Lou

2. 
   dieselpig | Jul 04, 2007 03:10pm | #3

   We usually use a double sill Lou.  So to keep the first sill in place while we fit and straighten the second sill... we often tack it down with a Ramset pin or three to keep everything straight and online until the nuts are tightened down.  If the foundation is fresh we often just hand-drive 'em in.  You can buy 2 1/2" washerhead pins rated for ACQ most anywhere, including HD.

   View Image
1. 
   Sphere | Jul 04, 2007 03:18pm | #4

   Hey? Why a double sill? Are both bolted? Are both PT?

   Just wunnerin.......... 

1. 
   dieselpig | Jul 04, 2007 03:41pm | #5

   Double sill just seems to be the 'industry standard' around here.  I'm guessing it's just a natural progression.... as recently as the 60's true mudsills were used around here and were usually 4x6 stock.  So a double sill closely resembles that.

   Personally I like a double sill.... laying the first sill tight to the 'crete and then shimming between them is much easier to me than shimming right from the inconsistent concrete.  But I highly doubt that's the reasoning behind the double sill.

   Usually just the first sill is PT and the second is KD.  But occasionally a double PT will be speced.  We always use sill seal so by code, neither truly 'needs' to be PT but we rarely pull that card.

   As far as bolting both sills down goes... I really don't have a straight answer for you.  Our goal is to always bolt both sills.... but the foundation guys often set the anchor bolts too deep and don't leave us enough thread for both sills plus a washer.  In that case we'll bolt the first sill down.  Cut the threads off flush with the nut.  And then hog out a corresponding nest in the second sill with a 1 1/4" spade bit and it will sit right over the nut,washer, bolt assembly nice and flush.  Spike the two together and make sure the sheathing gets nailed off to the first sill.View Image

1. 
   Matt | Jul 04, 2007 07:29pm | #6

   Sounds like an inefficient use of materials to me.  I guess this is mainly just for garage walls?  You all probably don't see too many (if any) slab on grade houses up there?

   Edited 7/4/2007 3:41 pm ET by Matt

1. 
   dieselpig | Jul 05, 2007 12:56am | #9

   Never even framed a slab on grade house.  And no it's not just for garage walls.  Inefficient?.... your opinion I suppose.  Is a double top plate inefficient too?  Let's not turn this into one of those threads, ok?  Different techniques are prominent in different parts of the country.  Doesn't make one right and one wrong... just different.View Image

2. 
   Matt | Jul 05, 2007 01:38am | #11

   OK - I'm just trying to understand.  Where else would you use a double bottom plate besides on a slab house or a garage?  Pony walls, I guess?  What else?  Or are you saying that the mud sill that sits between the top of the foundation wall and the bottom of the floor joists is doubled too?

3. 
   arnemckinley | Jul 05, 2007 02:24am | #12

   yes, mudsill plates, one PT and one KD, that is the most important place to get nailing purchase in the wall. not to mention the easiest way to correct for out of level foundation work.

4. 
   tek | Jul 05, 2007 04:50pm | #15

   It's not a double bottom plate, it's a double sill plate, 2-2x6's right on the foundation wall with some sill seal in between.  That's 'just the way' it's done out here, like Dieselpig said.  We also strap our ceilings, even with engineered joists.

2. 
   splintergroupie | Jul 04, 2007 08:56pm | #7

   Do you use special nails to nail the sheathing off to the first sill? Seems like the same principle of PT eating nails would be in play...?Jus' wunnerin', too.

1. 
   dieselpig | Jul 05, 2007 12:57am | #10

   Yes, galvies for nailing sheathing to the PT sill.  Once around the house after the first floor walls are up and forget about it.View Image

3. 
   Sphere | Jul 04, 2007 09:22pm | #8

   Hell, back when I was a framer , we were lucky if the bolts were long enough to get the one sill on, with out hogging out a wallow for the washer and nut.

   I think I recall vaguely somewhere in my mind that 2 sills is agood deal, if you have to come and replace rot damage, but I have never encountered that double sill, in a lot of repairs and such, must be a Northeastern thing.

   I can see the advantage for shimmage betwixt the two.

   Thanks.  Happy 4th Brian. 

4. 
   karp | Jul 05, 2007 07:31pm | #18

   You mentioned that you shim between the 2 mudsills. In the past, I've had to come off of some pretty bad foundations, so we would place our sill plate (one), leave the anchor bolts loose, drop down the deck and then shim up to the highest point of the foundation. The builder would then come in and grout from underside of plate to top of foundation.

   So, my question is, do you shim under every joist, continuous under the rim joist, grout? Are the foundations your coming off of so close that this is minimal?

   The reason I ask is that I've had to shim as much as an inch in some situations, in which case, if I had 2 plates, that space would be between the plates. I like the idea of the double plate, I think it would be easier to "true up" the wood structure by following your method, just not sure how to deal with the gaps.

   I'm taking notes

1. 
   Sphere | Jul 05, 2007 07:58pm | #19

   If you need to shim and INCH, you need a new foundation guy. That is preposterous. 

2. 
   karp | Jul 05, 2007 09:34pm | #20

   Yes,yes, it is preposp... prepoo... bad, I know THAT, what I'd like to know is how to deal with it. Unfortuneatly, its all too common to have a plus/minus of 3/4". On some occations, 1" and more. We typically shim and pack with grout, which places the requirement for continuous perimeter support in the hands of a ,,,,well,,a labouror. I'd rather have a better method.

3. 
   Sphere | Jul 05, 2007 09:42pm | #21

   Easy. Just have the idiot that poured the foundation come back and GRIND off the HIGH spots...LOL That'll make him a bit more observant to his level of levelness. 

4. 
   dovetail97128 | Jul 05, 2007 09:42pm | #22

   karp, Your out of level foundation is why i learned to put my own foundations in.
   Found out I made good money doing it as well."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca

5. 
   karp | Jul 06, 2007 09:51pm | #38

   That's all I need now, become an expert in ANOTHER trade, I must have 6 or 7 now.

   Just checked your profile, you're too far away to do my next one.If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?

6. 
   arnemckinley | Jul 05, 2007 11:22pm | #23

   <Yes,yes, it is preposp... prepoo... bad, I know THAT, what I'd like to know is how to deal with it. Unfortuneatly, its all too common to have a plus/minus of 3/4". On some occations, 1" and more. We typically shim and pack with grout, which places the requirement for continuous perimeter support in the hands of a ,,,,well,,a labouror. I'd rather have a better method.>

    try floating sill plates if the structure isn't to big.

7. 
   dieselpig | Jul 06, 2007 02:04am | #24

   Hi Karp...... other than an occasional (and truthfully rare) really bad spot, I've never had to deal with 3/4" or 1" problems with a new foundation.  Usually more like 1/2" at worst.  And anything under a 1/4", I'll often just let the rim joist span over the gap.  If a joist should land in that valley, then I will run a cedar shim in under both the rim and joist and snap it off.

   We did have one really bad foundation now that I think about it.  We built a new house on an 40+ year old foundation where the original house had burned down.  In this particular situation we leveled the rim joists (with a builder's level on a tripod) and then shimmed at every joist.

   Any particular reason you're getting such bad foundation and why the frequency?  I know that the foundations are always worse here in the winter as the mud doesn't flow as well and the cold can made some guy's tolerances slip a little.View Image

8. 
   karp | Jul 06, 2007 04:40pm | #28

   I'm sorry to say that most of the concrete foundations are within 1/2" at best. Try as I might, shoot elevations, plead, beg, scream, change subs, it just seems to be a mindset here. Construction's been busy for over 10 yrs. now, (touch wood) so everyones busy, get it done, no time, livin' in the "big smoke". Quality control, (what I spend most of my time on) is a huge problem.

   In BT, we've had threads on,

   "The shortage of skilled workers"

   "Pride in workmanship"

   "What is a craftsman?"

   "Training the young guys"

   "Keeping the site clean"

   All these topics relate to the ability of a builder to deliver a good product. I've seen the quality of work slip over the past few years and, much as I hate to do it, have had to have work done over. (very rare occurrance yrs. ago)

   Sorry for the hijack, but I like to have some "solid fix solutions" in my arsenal because, as I mentioned, I seem to need them more and more.

9. 
   dieselpig | Jul 06, 2007 08:43pm | #29

   It was like that here too just a couple years ago.  I was basically bidding at will.  I could bid 75% of the jobs fair but safe and land them.  I was too busy to actually do the other 25% so I'd bid them high and explain why.  And frequently get them anyway.  And you're right.... I did see quality slip across the board with subs of all types.  Not to mention, everyone with decent credit became a GC and everyone with a truck and a hammer became a carpenter or a roofer or a sider. 

   Last summer the market settled down quite a bit.  Quality of work has improved and maintaining customer relations became more important.  And some of the hacks have fallen through the cracks.  But with that.... "competitive bidding" is once again the norm.  View Image

10. 
    karp | Jul 06, 2007 09:00pm | #30

    Cuttin' out early on Friday?

    Traded your hammer for a cool one? Good for you!!

    Anyway, yea, trying to maintain quality is a real pain! I just can't understand how guys think they're getting ahead, coming back to fix is a nightmare. When I was on the tools, I learned pretty quick that doing it right the first time was where the money was. Remember this one?, " If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?"

    As a matter of fact, I should make that my ultimately annoying tag line!!

    Suffice to say, Holmes on Homes works out of this market, nuff said.

11. 
    karp | Jul 06, 2007 09:08pm | #31

    Annoying tag line testIf you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?

12. 
    dieselpig | Jul 06, 2007 09:10pm | #32

    Leaving tomorrow for the Cape for my vacation.  We finished a couple townhouses yesterday and next job wasn't/isn't ready until Monday so I squeeked an extra day out of my vacation.  The boys'll start the new one without me.  They're excited... I'm nauseous.   LOL....View Image

13. 
    karp | Jul 06, 2007 09:21pm | #33

    Just 3 days!!??

    Did I read that wrong?? 

    Today's word is "Delegate". Your guys are excited because they get a chance to think for themselves, make their own mistakes and fix them before you get back! Got to let them try their wings! Don't micro manage, it is what it is!!

    O.K. I'm all out of nonsense now. Enjoy your holiday!!If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?

14. 
    dieselpig | Jul 06, 2007 09:28pm | #35

    No, no.... I'm going to the Cape from Saturday to Saturday.  My guys will be fine without me..... it's me that I'm worried about. LOL..... I never let go of anything that didn't have claw marks in it.  To be fair though.... my lead guy now is my ex-boss that I broke in with 10 years ago.  The job is in good hands.View Image

15. 
    davidmeiland | Jul 06, 2007 09:33pm | #36

    Excellent, we got the keys to the forlift, Brian's gone, who's bringing the beer?

16. 
    dieselpig | Jul 06, 2007 09:38pm | #37

    LOL.... exactly.View Image

17. 
    karp | Jul 06, 2007 10:01pm | #39

    8 days! O.K.!!

    Try to relax, it always takes me 4 days just to decompress! Get out on the water A.S.A.P., I find that helps.

    I'll handle all the Framing questions while your gone, and when you get back, you can settle all the arguments between Piffin and me.

    Cheers!!

    If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?

     

    P.S. How do you like my annoying tag line?

    Edited 7/6/2007 3:03 pm ET by karp

2. 
   loucarabasi | Jul 05, 2007 05:29am | #13

   Hey diesel pig, I have a question regarding my garage door opening. I have 8inch block walls, 2 courses above finish floor line. from block to block the dimension is 10ft 1-1/2. I'm using 2x4 walls. What do I do when framing to allow for the brackets for the garage door (where the 2x4 meets the block). I am a cabinet maker and its been awhile since I framed, O and one more thing- what size versalam for above the door? A frame roof!!!

   Thanks pal, Lou

   p.s. pictures may help too

1. 
   Stilletto | Jul 05, 2007 01:34pm | #14

   You kind of got screwed if you have that for a RO.  With 16" of block above the slab you won't be able to mount the track. 

   Maybe frame that wall out of 2x8's so you are flush on both sides.  Might be the easiest fix at this point. 

   Matt

1. 
   loucarabasi | Jul 06, 2007 01:24pm | #26

   Guys, I can do that it's only 10ft of wall. I dont know how the scissor truss will come into play. (seat cut).

   What do you guys think? Lou

1. 
   Stilletto | Jul 06, 2007 01:47pm | #27

   So long as you have full bearing on the seat cut of the scissor truss everything will be fine. 

   If it's only 10' of wall I would frame it with 2x8's.  Thats alot easier than cutting out the RO. 

   What you do to one side you may have to do to the other to make the ceiling look consistant. 

   Matt

   Edited 7/6/2007 6:48 am ET by Stilletto

2. 
   dovetail97128 | Jul 05, 2007 04:58pm | #16

   Lke stiletto said you have problems. Might frame a double 2 x 4 wall , align the inner wall with the inside face of the block . Header size will depend on what load you are carrying, bearing ridge on a post centered over the garage door? Or just rafter load ? Either way a double trimmer is needed with a 10' span on the header.."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca

3. 
   dieselpig | Jul 05, 2007 07:17pm | #17

   Relax Lou... you're not screwed.  We just do things a little differently around here.  :)

   I've never framed a garage that wasn't up on at least 16" of concrete.  Usually the pour leaves us an opening about 6" or more larger than the RO will be.  We head it off over sized like that.  Then after the wall is up, we frame in the sides to the final RO with the framing extending all the way to the slab.  These (usually) two additional jack studs is where the track is bolted.

   What size versalam?  LOL... kind of an open ended question Lou.  Just go to HD and ask for a "garage header".  :)   Seriously though.... I've no idea what sort of loads it's carrying so I can't even guess at the size.  View Image

1. 
   loucarabasi | Jul 06, 2007 01:22pm | #25

   Diesel, I can cut back the block. Cant I ?

   Its only 2 courses above grade

   Thanks, Lou

1. 
   dieselpig | Jul 06, 2007 09:25pm | #34

   Sure you can cut the block back.  Without going back and re-reading, I think you said you're opening is 10' 1 1/2".... is that correct?  What size RO are you looking to frame in?  To be fair... I'm a little out of my league here as our foundations are poured concrete.  But I don't see why cutting the block back would be any different.  Are the cells filled?   I've got a 14" gas cut-off saw in the trailer and have no problem making changes to foundations (for a small fee of course) when need be.

   EDIT: Just re-read things.... for a small garage like that, you may just want to take Matt's( Stilletto) advice and go with the 2x8.  Might be less messy and time consuming  in the end and you'll have a nice stout wall, to say the least.

   View Image

   Edited 7/6/2007 2:30 pm ET by dieselpig