My sister Mindy who lives in Orlando just sent me this letter that I’m posting. I’m sending her the link to this discussion.
So what do you all think?
>>>>What’s your opinion, especially since you’re in the bldg field….
so this is what happened last nite, I was LIVID!…..
I think I told you that about 6 of our ceramic kitchen tiles are popping up and the grout chipping out, BUT ONLY AFTER A FRIEND RECOMMENDED THIS GROUT TILE CLEANING COMPANY TO US AND THEY CAME IN AND CLEANED IT 2 WKS AGO.
Linzy and I watched as 1 guy came in with a heavy floor type machine , FLOODED (water had to be at least 1/2 ” thick throughout tile area) the tile floor with water/ENZYME solution and then scrubbed it with this heavy suction typle machine.
RIGHT AFTER he left, Linzy and I heard a huge popping noice, scared the
out of us , so loud. We ran to kitchen and realized that about 3 tiles popped up loosening the grout (but not totally disconnected from floor) .
So now if you step on about 6 tiles you feel the hollow underneath and grout is continuing to chip away.
I had him come over last nite, he brought his wife and a major
ATTITUDE(!), swore it COULDNT have been his enzyme/machine/technique, as they’ve been in biz for 20 yrs. I SAID , PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING, LOOK AT MY FLOOR…. IT HAPPENED AND IS CONTINUING TO HAPPEN RIGHT AFTER YOU CLEANED IT !! COINCIDENCE??? NO WAY!!!
he said well it was poor installation 15 yrs ago. I said fine, maybe true, but I had an intact floor till you came and now I have to replace (i dont have any extra tiles) the whole floor. He said not his responsibility.
WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS???? I was livid. Wants to have his chemical people that he buys this enzyme come and prove it wasn’t that. I said well your machine could have sucked it up. Even his wife suggested to him that maybe the machine sucked it up. He shut her down real quick. and said no way with a 40 lb sucking pressure could that have done that. He said “we are licensed and insured and if it were our fault, our insurance would pay for it and this has never happened in 20 yrs. ” I said well, there’s always a 1st, which is why you have ins. and unfortunately I guess I;’m your 1st Ins. case! He got so aggressive saying, “look sweetheart I will fight you to the end in this matter”! I said, look , first DONT CALL ME SWEETHEART, I’m not wanting to fight, I just see the fact that since you left , I will now need a new floor!” Look at it! He said it was a “freaky coincidence”. That’s his explanation.
Well the fact remains in my mind that i had an intact floor till he cleaned it.
Am I off base with this? forget it? fight it?
min<<<<
Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
HTTP://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Replies
What seems most likely to me is that the cleaning process triggered a pre-existing defect in the installation. Neither you nor the cleaning guy, nor any of us on this site is qualified to determine to what extent the fault divides between the installer and the cleaning operation.
The cleaning people were wrong to give you that attitude. The right thing for them to have done would be to say that obviously something is very wrong here, and the right way to go is to get the experts from the enzyme company to look at it and take it to their insurance adjuster. They've got to have deeper pockets and better insurance than the mom and pop cleaning company.
Go as high up the food chain as you can at the biggest company involved. That's where you're most likely to find somebody who'll OK paying for your damage.
-- J.S.
Just got off the phone w/ her.
To me, the bottom line is they should come in and check the floor first to see if it can even be done but instead the owner sent some kid in and just went ahead and did it without checking a thing first.
If you go and power wash someones house and its wood shingles that are real loose, you tell the owner that before I power wash I need all the shingles secured first otherwise A-B-or C might happen. Theyre the experts, not the HO.
One biggie though...no contract. But, they did come in and do it and cashed the check and my sister had my niece there as a witness as to what happened.
My sisters signing up for BT so she should be in here soon to answer any questions.Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
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One biggie though...no contract. But, they did come in and do it and cashed the check and my sister had my niece there as a witness as to what happened.
I haven't finish reading all the post. I have been down the above road as a HO and as a contractor
Once money exchanges hands the law assumes that the customer recieved goods or service. Basic in any state, the check implies there was a verbal contract of some sort. Another basic is that the contractor will do no harm unless clearly stated in a contract or a disclaimer, and that disclaimer may have limits within your state. Since there was no written contract, the contractor has assumed full responsibilty and liability for his work. His failure is his alone, no matter what condition, or when the floor was put it. There are legal twist and turns in all that, but bottom line he will settle for some percentage of a new floor cost to stay out of court.
BTDT from both side of the issue.
Dave
Dave
Since there was no written contract, the contractor has assumed full responsibilty and liability for his work. His failure is his alone, no matter what condition, or when the floor was put it.
Dave, you are correct that a contract can be written or oral, and an offer can be accepted by performance. But, the statement above is simply wrong. The absence of a written contract with a disclaimer does not mean that the contractor is responsible for everything in the world that goes wrong. The contractor is responsible for his (a) breach of the contract, (b) negligence, (c) damage cause by intentional acts.
Every contract has implied conditions, such as fitness for a particular use and good faith. It need not be in writing or said, it simply is. The contractor is responsible for HIS work, not a guarantor of someone else's work. If he can reasonably foresee that the performance of his work will cause failure of someone else's work, then the contractor assumes responsibility when he proceeds nonetheless. But if he cannot foresee a problem, then he is not responsible simply because a problem occurred.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Dave,
Thanks for your input. I really do not want to have to litigate this, but do feel that they are at least somewhat responsible and as you suggest, should settle for a percentage of the new floor I now need. Thanks, Mindy
Any idea about what brand machine and what brand enzyme cleaner was used?
Maybe the "technician" or at least the franchise company has a website that has info on it? Maybe you Andy, can email them/call them asking questions as if you are a brand new potential customer. Do not let on that you know about the situation with your sis' tile problem.
It was 15 years ago but do you know if thinset was used to set the tile? Maybe it was mastic and the water used to clean the grout got to the mastic.
your bet is a good one. I have been sitting here trying to think of what logical explanation would be responsible for this to happen other than some sort of a faulty original install. I was picturing some back-buttered thinset work that left gaps for the water flood on to seep in and somehow cause the problem.
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I was wondering too. Most likely being in Orlando it is a cement slab floor underneath. But if it were wood subfloor, I was wondering if the water warped the wood enough to overcome whatever enzyme-loosened "glue" was used.
Piff...well whatever caused it is besides the point to some degree.
My concern is that shouldn't the company have come and checked the floor first to be sure everything was sound before they flooded it and then ran a heavy machine over it?
My guess is that some of the tiles "were" loose enough to allow water to find its way under them and once the H2O got under and then the weight of the machine and what ever it does which I assume vibrates and sucks started happening it really did a number. I doubt it even had anything to do with the chemical.
Thing in question to ME is...wouldn't you or any other contractor here give the floor at least a once over by eye and maybe tap some of the tiles to see if they sounded hollow underneath or whatever? I sure would have. I can't even begin to imagine flooding someone's floor and pushing heavy equipment over it without checking first. Ya know?
After all that's what we get paid for...to be the experts. Then to come in and call her sweetie (even though she is sweet...lol) and carry on flailing his arms and carrying on is beyond unprofessional. Again, thats neither here nor there but still...says something about how he conducts business!
I've never even heard of this process so I have no advice for her other than to take him to court...because thats what I'd do in this case...
Where's Shaggy when ya need him?...lol..bet he pops his head in soon..
Be well
andy
EDIT: Imagine if the tile job "was" bad and there was a wood subfloor below it and below that was a fifty thousand dollar Baby Grand Piano..
Who'd be responsible for the water damage to it? Ya know?Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM http://www.ramdass.com
Edited 10/31/2006 3:49 pm ET by andybuildz
I am also thinking mastic (it should be easy for her to tell). I also wonder if the tiles were set on 1/4" luan which is a common but unsuitable substrate for tile. If the luan became soaked (which it would over time with 1/2" of water) and expanded or cupped it could pop those tiles right off. It probably was a bad installation exposed by too much water from the cleaning machine.
Billy
P.S. 1/2 inch of cleaning water is a ridiculous level of water for cleaning a floor.
Billy,
Thanks for your input, I agree, flooding my floor would naturally seem to do damage.
Mindy
Thanks for your input, I agree, flooding my floor would naturally seem to do damage.<<<No it wouldn't or shouldn't. We set tile in shower areas..on the floor...and pool borders.
Same process pretty much. Just seems to me if they FLOOD something some kind of pre inspection of the conditions theyre working in should be done.
You brother aviCreation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
"flooding my floor would naturally seem to do damage."Not so, Mindy. A properly done tile floor can handle exterior weather where deep water is common.So far, given your location, I have had to assume that this is applied to a slab on grade. Do you have information to the contrary? As for litigation, if the tile guys coming over to inspect the situation can objectively determine fault on the part of the operator, it would be less expensive to take it to small claims yourself.do you have a list for them to answer first?
Like how they normally set tile in the sort of situation you have - how qualified are they?
Have them discover if it is set to mastic instead of thinset?
Ask them hard pointed questions. You do not want them simply agreeing with you if you are considering court. You want the truth objectively told. The opposing side will ask them hard questions, you know.
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Hey Piffin, Mindy here, BTW, what's your REAL name?Thanks for some more input. Some amateur thoughts on my part.... not knowing anything about building/constrution like my brother or any of you, it just seems to me that the real issue here is not how it was installed 15 yrs ago, but rather that it has stayed intact for all those yrs UNTIL this co. came and cleaned it. So , shouldnt THAT be the main issue and not installation? And when a couple of tile company's come here to give me estimates, are there questions I can ask them about faulty cleaning which resulted in my present mess? Or any other questions related to this that I might be able to ask tile companies to prepare for small claims court? Thanks....
Mindy,
The thing we're wondering about here is what kind of floor this tile is on. Is it concrete poured directly on the ground? Is there a basement or crawl space under it?
-- J.S.
Sorry Mindy, But you seem to be looking selectively for information to build a case against him, instead of looking for the truth of the matter when you say you only want certain questions answered that way and proceed to ignore our questions and withhold information that can be usefull in determining whether he is at fault or not.My real name is Clifford Andrews;)
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come on, Pif, don't try to fool Mindy.
You know your name is really John Svensson
You are just trying to distract her from the hidden meaning of life
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John...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
AbeCreation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
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So , shouldnt THAT be the main issue and not installation?
res ipsa loquitor
What wood eye have done?Well, it's hard to be totally honest in restrospect, 20/20 hindsight being what it is...but In the areas I am proficient in, I do inspect things to varying degrees, and often shoot photos of the 'before' conditions to have should any question arise. Clearly, the operator or owner diod not do this.But that is an excercise I use to deflect blame. It has never been necessary to go to court of even to use the pohotos to show the owner - on my part. Whether it would have helped this guy - who knows.Truth is, none of us cansee conditions from here, and in order to establish that he did this, the burden of proof would be on Mindy. She would need to demonstrate that this was in a bonafide good condition before his operator started to shake, rattle, and flood. I don't think she would get far in court, but that is just one opinion. I'm sure somebody here will disagree with it.What gets me is that this guy is unwilling to lay it onto his insurance. Bad references go a long way to harm a business. He is either a complete jerk, or he has a very good reason for refusing to deal with this for her. Can I read his mind? Nope.OTOH, my insurance takes care of the high end. It'll do something for a customer if I burn the house down, but my deductable is high too. I would probably be better off replacing a modestly sized floor than turning it over to my insurance company and risk getting cancelled or paying higher rates next year.
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"Truth is, none of us cansee conditions from here, and in order to establish that he did this, the burden of proof would be on Mindy. She would need to demonstrate that this was in a bonafide good condition before his operator started to shake, rattle, and flood. I don't think she would get far in court, but that is just one opinion. I'm sure somebody here will disagree with it."I don't think so.She is not an expert on tile floors. All she has to show is that to the layperson that there was no obvisous problems.The cleaning company is the experts and should know how inspect it to see if it was in sound enough shape to use their equipment.
If the water from the cleaner is hot and a lot of it is used perhaps a rapid temp. differential between the tile and slab expanded the tile beyond what the thinset could handle. In normal use there isn't such a large temp differential.
The same can happen when direct sunlight heats tile faster than the subfloor/backer, so better quality thinsets with more grab and flex are generally better to use in those areas.
If this is the case it's not necessarily the tile installation that's at fault because it was put down for normal conditions for that area, not large temp. differentials and has held up fine for 15 years.
It's probably not 100% the grout cleaner's fault since he was following a set of procedures that have a good track record (an asumption).
Obviously it's not an unrelated coincidence that the tile popped due to what happened during the cleaning. The cleaner should have to fix the tiles that popped, but that doesn't mean he's buying a whole floor.
Unfortunately, that also probably means the grout around the repaired area won't exactly match and any damaged tiles might not be available as a replacement so the tile will have to be "repaired" by a ceramics expert.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Andy- Before I got to the end of your post, my first thought was it's the 1/2" of water causing the problem.
Even if the installation wasn't great, I would feel the cleaning company owns alot of the responsibility for the problem. They are the ones who saturated the floor.
Doesn't make them a bad company, unless they try to deny their actions had any part in this problem at all.
Buic
Hi, Andy's sis , Mindy here...
Thanks for your input to my tile problem. I'm sure that totally saturating our floor, had to be 1/2" water/enzyme sitting on it as he scrubbed with a suction floor machine of some kind, had to do the damage . I dont have a contract , will consult my lawyer neighbor and see what he thinks....
Mindy,
While I sympathize with your situation, a well installed tile in thinset mortar is about the hardest thing in the world to remove, regardless of how much water is on it unless it was installed with mastic.
With that in mind, it is real easy to check how well tile is installed. Simply tap on the surface. If it sounds hollow, it is poorly installed. If it sounds solid, it is most likely well installed. The cleaning guy should have checked to see how well installed it was prior to the washing and made you aware of any deficiencies in the installation.
Do you have thinset or mastic on your tiles? This information will be most helpful.
Bruce
I think Hiker has a point: properly installed tiles don't pop off. My guess is that it wasn't properly installed, probably with mastic, and the water loosened things up. I don't think its fair to expect the floor guy to magically know the floor was put down with a water-soluble adhesive.Brooks
>>>>I think Hiker has a point: properly installed tiles don't pop off. My guess is that it wasn't properly installed, probably with mastic, and the water loosened things up. I don't think its fair to expect the floor guy to magically know the floor was put down with a water-soluble adhesive.<<<<<The floors been down 15 years but besides that..>>>>I don't think its fair to expect the floor guy to magically know the floor was put down with a water-soluble adhesive.<<<<Magically? If you read my post...my biggest complaint aboutthe owner of this company was that he never checked the floor AT ALL!
He sent of of his guys there to "just do it". No checking what_so_ever.
As I said here a few times already...he should have checked cause he's the expert not my sister. Thats why she called the company.
If the tiles were loose or hollow sounding he should have warned her what might happen...no?
And no one said it was water soluable adhesive. How would the HO know what it was put down with. It was put down way before she lived there.She knows how to cook...not set tile...lol.Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
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Andy,
After rereading your first post, and some of the other posts, I think it is safe to say the guy should test the floors to see if they are intact before doing whatever it is he did and most folks can check that fairly readily.
I guess I was pulled to the discussion that the machine somehow destroyed an intact tile installation. As I said earlier, I doubt any scrubbing machine could damage an intact tile install, it just made it worse and as you point out, if this is what this guy does, he should know to check before having at it.
Hope things work out for your sister,
Bruce
Physicians have a saying, "When you hear the sound of hoof beats, don't assume it's a zebra." Or consider Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation that accounts for all known facts is usually the right one.
There is no reason for the cleaner, who has done this a thousand times without incident, to be expected to check to make sure that the tiles are properly set. It is fair and appropriate to operate under the assumption that floor tiles are properly installed.
Moreover, there is no indication that if he had "inspected" the tiles first, he would have been able to determine that a problem would occur. There was nothing visible on the surface to indicate a failure, and if there had been something visible (including loose or shifting tiles) on the surface, then it would have been visible to everyone, including your sister. And if there was anything visible that gave rise to concern, then there was a duty to inform the cleaner of this concern prior to having the work performed. You don't need to know how to set tiles to know that something is awry. Since she knew of no problem, we must assume that an inspection of the floor before cleaning would not have revealed any reason for concern.
It would appear clear that the cleaning was the catalyst for failure, but not the cause. The cause was defective installation as tiles do not pop off in the absence of defective installation. The cleaner is not responsible for the defective installation, as his work would not have caused a patent defect to appear if there was no defect in the first place.
The primary problem was the cleaner's poor handling of the situation. Remember my lecture at tipifest? Had he provided a thoughtful and helpful response, demonstrating his empathy and understanding of the situation, rather than inflame the situation with the "sweetheart" comment, this otherwise unfortunate situation would not have escalated into a war. It doesn't make the cleaner any more responsible; It does make him a jerk. But being a jerk is not actionable, nor does it shift responsibility. Don't waste perfectly good angst on this guy. Retile the floor. Complain to the BBB or local consumer protection agency just for fun. Don't waste time going after him.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
SHG, we had a tile cleaning contractor do a very similar thing. He didn't break or loosen tile, but he did use to much water. Tile and grout is not water proof, his flood damaged the first floor and basement ceilings when it leaked through. One aera acctualy soaked through the dw and it sagged to the point it had to be cut out and replaced. The other area just stained.
$250 worth of cleaning and $200 worth of repair work. No written contract. Small claims court said he paid for the damage. His argument that he used standart practices and the damage was caused by prexisting conditions didn't even fly.
I was the HO in this one. My canceled check and photos of the damage was all it took.
Dave
Dave, that sounds like a totally different kind of case, involving negligence on the serviceman's part, not a lack of x-ray eyes. It is reasonable to expect that with a basement room below, care must be taken to control water flow, but it is unreasonable to expect him to see invisible conditions from improper installation.
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exactly. different facts, different result.
Good Morning! Good to see you again.
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Good morning. I've been hiding out for a while. Tired of having to get into an argument with certain people every time I post something about the law. But I couldn't ignore my buddy Andy. If anything, he gets free legal advice for life because he did me a major solid a while back.
Hope all is well with you.
Scott
Thanks,
a little run down is all.
I haven't been here as much this past month myself
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Mannnnn, what time do you go to sleep Scott? You get up the same time as BossHog and his roosters?...lolThanks for the feedback. To me, it seems that when you flood someone's floor w/ water vs just using the typical amt to clean one you would take a few minutes to give the floor a once over by tapping on at least a few tile to see if they're sound? Seems that would be a typical and reasonable thing to do under this circumstance. To me his practice doesn't seem reasonable. I'm looking at this from a professional builder/service persons point of view as standard practice. Seems like the reasonable thing to do. OR. Give the HO simple paperwork to sign indicating these are the steps she as given HO should be prepared to do before they start the job...and have her sign it acknowleding this.
In a lot of builders contracts there are the same considerations pointed out. Even in my web page as will be in my contract I try and point out the obvious, ie:remove all valuables from the rooms we will be working in. Have the said area set aside from children and animals etc etc.
The people may choose to ignore it but it does show that I've tried to point these things in vs coming in to "bang out" a job.
I know nothing is written in stone (so to speak) but I don't think he was reasonable considering the actions they take in cleaning a floor (flooding it and using heavy equipt). Just seems unreasonable to me froma proffessiona; point of view.
PS...bet youre getting some use out of that gater thing you bought now.
you know, that little ebay RV...lol.Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
"in my contract I try and point out the obvious, ie:remove all valuables from the rooms we will be working in. Have the said area set aside from children and animals etc etc.
The people may choose to ignore it but it does show that I've tried to point these things i"Mind if I point out what I think is a potential flaw in your thinking here?
I knew you wouldn't, thanks!
;)This probably doesn't have anything to do with this particular issue, but for your business going forward...
suppose that the HO signs a contract and agrees to remove all valuables.Then they leave valuables in the room. Do we refuse to begin work until they remove the valuables or do we go ahead and begin working around the valuables, or do we remove the valuables ourselves?My point is that regardless of what they may have signed, if you begin working under a condition that is contrary to the terms of the wriotten contract, then you have in essence accepted by your own actions a new seet of terms when you proceed forward unless you are going to refuse to begin.Myself, I carefully package and protect the items and remove them and shoot pictures of their condition and placement. I make my best effort to protect.But wheere this might tie to the issue at hand is that it is the real conditions that apply sometimes over the assumed conditions at time of a contract signing. I'm sure Shaggy can correct me if this is not too generic of off track
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You KNOW I get up early. Why should this surprise you?
When you analyze the situation, try not to think of it from the back end (after a problem has happened) but from the front end. Cleaning a tile floor isn't that big a deal. It's not the same as building an extension, or being in someone's home alone for a week. The whole thing should have gone without a hitch, yet one in a thousand times something will go wrong. As I've said when people asked about writing contracts, especially "bullet proof" ones (yes, that means you, Imerc), nobody can anticipate every possible thing that can happen. We work with probabilities.
The other day, I read that some woman bore twins, one white and one black. Who's she gonna sue? "But I paid for a matched set." Stuff happens. The law doesn't provide a cure for everything.
My gator is doing fine, but the way. I love it, kids love it and it gets lots of use. Not as much as the Healey, but still a worthy investment.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
The other day, I read that some woman bore twins, one white and one black. Who's she gonna sue? "But I paid for a matched set."
Okay, since I choked and blew coffee out my nose over that one and ruined the keyboard, do I sue you or the lady with the two-tone post-partum depression?Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
do I sue you or the lady with the two-tone post-partum<<< T.H
Ask Michael Jacksons mother : )Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
Michael Jackson had a mother???Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Michael Jackson had a mother???<<<<T.H
Yeh, I know...hard to believe, huh? I donno...I wouldn't stake my life on it. I think his mom is Elizabeth Taylor.Soooooo, when we starting up the, "Who's doing the next fest thread? Around xmas again? You still up front in the cool runnin' son?
BE well dude
Namaste'
andyCreation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
It will be long before Christmas. If I'm gonna do this thing, I will need a firm decision and some solid commits by then. We can't just be starting to argue, LOL....
I may start the thread next week, once I can get a couple of other things cleared off my desk.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
be careful. first, it's an expensive and time consuming endeavor. second, lots of people will say they're for it, but won't show when push comes to shove. You, in particular, aren't in a position to eat those kinds of problems at the moment. Don't bite off more than you can chew.
also, how many people here can make it through a border crossing?
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
be careful. first, it's an expensive and time consuming endeavor. second, lots of people will say they're for it, but won't show when push comes to shove. You, in particular, aren't in a position to eat those kinds of problems at the moment. Don't bite off more than you can chew.~~~~~~~~~~~~And getting people to send checks is a real trip. Some pay up instantly and others you have to chase down constantly and it makes you feel like a real dick. Then trying to figure out how much money you have to spend is what its really all about with all of the above considered. And be sure you have plenty of money of your own to lay out and pray you get back.
PAYPAL is a fantastic tool eventhough it costs a fee. Its instant and easy and leaves little excuses.
Glad that parts over with.,,,whewwwwwww.
Heyyyyyy,,,Its Friday....yeeeeee ha. Big deal. I get to do leaves tomorrow...echhhh.Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
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At the request of a highly respected member of the mid-southern caucus, we're gonna delay the official opening of the 'debate' until after Memphest. No point in watering down the pre-event focus when we can profit by the afterglow, LOL.
The economics of this thing will be set up the same way I bid a job: I might risk a paper loss for labour, but I'm not buying materials till the deposit is in the bank. I don't even put you on the schedule till I see the colour of your money....
I'm glad to hear from Andy that the Paypal idea I had for last year worked out so well for him. I had a feeling that might help. The marketing boyz call that an 'enabler'. I have a few other ideas to make the admin end of this bash--uh, 'conference'--go smoothly.
First, we gotta get sponsored by a brewery....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thank you for your energy and input into my tile problem. I really do not want to get into a "war" or litigation with this cleaning company but really feel that they are at least somewhat responsible for turning a perfectly intact tile floor into a cracking lifting one now, after cleaning . Most folks (including my attorney neighbor) think that they were definitely responsible ... I'll just have to see if I want to pursue it. Not sure if I have the energy or finances to start with litigation.
Again, thanks for your input.
Mindy
But Andy, There is no way to magicly discover that tiles were set in mastic instead of properly done in thinset or mud base without taking one off. If you have a method for discovering that, I'd like to hear it. From the surface these tiles would look and sound the same.
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Piff..To me- its more than wheather its set in mastic or not. Of course you wouldn't know (another good reason the company should have something in writing pointing this out to people that are clueless about this sort of thing).,
To me I think what would be resonable is to spend five minutes or less and go around and tap on the tiles here and there to see if they hear any hollow ones or feel anything loose. that just seems reasonable and appropriate under the circumstances. Your not a flooring cleaming guy and I'm betting if you rented such a machine to do someones floor you'd check. I KNOW I would. Seems like it should be standard practice.
When you buy upholstery cleaner...it says to check in an inconspicuos area before using. Just makes sense in cleaning anything especially when you "flood" something and use heavy equiptment.
Maybe I'm wrong...its been known to happen : )~Creation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
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Thanks for your input , Bruce. Dont know what will become of this situation, I'm pursuing it for now and will see what happens.
Mindy
Mindy,
Are the tiles broken, or just loose? If they are unbroken, then you might be able to reset them properly and regrout that area. I'm with you that if the install was faulty it should have shown up sometime within the last 15 years and it clearly looks to be related to the cleaning that was done. But the bottom line is that your kitchen needs a floor, regardless of whether you pursue the problem with the cleaners.
I would certainly report this to the Better Business Bureau. If he is a member then you have a chance of getting results that way. If he isn't a member, they still maintain your complaint so the next person to come along is forewarned.
If he isn't a member, they still maintain your complaint so the next person to come along is forewarned.<<<<
aimless,
We probably reach more people here in Breaktime that the BB does...lol. If nothing else we learn more about weird s**t like this than the BB offers...I never even heard of floor cleaning like that...Mindy did it mainly to clean up the grout lines.
Be well
andyCreation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
"Mindy did it mainly to clean up the grout lines."Well Mindy, are they clean?Sorry to joke but we have pressure relief valves around here. I know you are upset.Do you know if this is over a concrete slab?
Can you post digital photos of things here?
how in the world did he keep the water in one place to get it that deep?
That last is for my own curiosity.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for your input. Yes, his cleaning process did crack (fine lines) a couple of the tiles, so popping them up and resetting wouldn't work. Having a couple of unbiased tile guys come over to look and give me their take on this situation. Again, thanks.
Mindy
i'll preface this by saying, the floor is 1000 miles away and i have no idea what the floor looks like.
i do know that all of the properly installed ceramic tile floors i have ripped out took either an 8 pound sledge or a chipping hammer to remove.
they didn't just "pop" after they got wet. whether it was a few drops of water or 300 gallons, it shouldn't make a difference. water doesn't affect properly installed ceramic tile.
so, who's in the wrong here ?
i would bet a little of both. my gut tells me that the floor was probably loose to begin with. we see them all the time. ceramic tile floors that have tiles that are only marginally bonded due to various reasons and it takes the whole system including the grout to hold them together.
add a water flood and some vibration and voila, popping tiles.
i'll agree with the others, the cleaning guy should have tapped on the tiles to check for loose ones. he could have informed the owner if there were loose tiles and had them sign off on the possibility of damage.
so, who's gonna pay to fix ?
it's time for your sister and the owner of the business to check their emotions at the door and come to a reasonable solution.
carpenter in transition
My first guess is that since there was no written contract including a disclaimer in the event of substandard installation, the cleaning contract will have to eat this one, especially since his employee did not conduct even a cursory examination of the floor before proceeding. We also don't know if his employee followed standard practise as to how much solution to put on the floor. That information would have to come from the franchisor.
If her floor held for 15 years under normal conditions, there would be a prima facie good-faith assumption by the HO that the installation had been done properly. The cleaning contractor would have to prove he disabused her of that assumtion for good cause before I would be ready to hold him blameless. It does not appear he is in a position to do so.
In addition, the 'standards' for tile installation have changed over the last 15 years, and there is always the question of regional standards, too. (In 1990, virtually no one here used CBU or membrane for residential tile work. Floors were tiled directly onto the plywood. Many used mastic, too, where today we would use thinset.) The cleaning contractor might have a fair amount of trouble proving that the floor was not installed to the regionally accepted standards current at the time of installation.
Finally, covering any floor with ½" of liquid subjects it to extreme conditions not envisioned when setting standards for installation. That much liquid is equivalent to a flood which might occur in the event of a broken pipe or leaking dishwasher. Normal installations are not expected to deal with that kind of abuse.
But I'd be interested in Shaggy's take on it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Sounds like liquid got under the tile and swelled the subfloor. The buckling probably loosened the tiles.
what subfloor?She lives in an area where concrete slab on grade is the norm
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That was the first thought I had. I thought it may be on a slab after I posted .
Yes, but I wish she would confirm. Simple facts go a long way in diagnosing. Photos go even further
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Dear Andy,
I don't know what going on over there? But I surely know that grout, thinset and stone are not water proof. That's why we have to seal not to have moisture get to behind the tile--in general, only the tile surface is water proof. My opions here are:
1- When was the last time the floor was sealed? As a finish carpenter, I require customers to call me every year to inspect my work and re-seal the tile. I know that water sucks behind the tile--even on concrete floor or cement backer board--then there is occuring problem. 1/2" of water with cleaning stuff? I don't think that is a good idea!
2- Tile needs room to espand, that why every 10' of tile lab, we have to leave gaps and fill with caulk instead of grout. Tile can espand when temperature changes, or when it get wet. Again, 1/2" of water floods the tile, to me is not a good idea!
3- Does the cleaning guys have license? If I were you, I would call the contractor board to fill a claim. They will take care of that. If the guy has license, he doesn't want to have a claim. If the guy doesn't have license, then it is illegal to perform the work, he is not running away with it.
Just a few thoughts,
good bye and good luck (for your sister)
I agree and I've advised my sister of the same thoughts you have.
Although IMO if tile has been thinset down on top of a concrete slab I do not think it should be coming up unless there's an unforseen problem and I'm not there to take a look to say 100%.
IMO though..the issue to me is more about just going into someones house and performing this type of procedure which is more than sketchy to me and not giving the floor at least two minutes of checking into before sending one of his guys over there to do do this procedure of flooding a floor then running heavy equiptment over it OR at least giving her something in writing to sign with some warning for HER to check before they start.After speaking with her again today I asked her how they keep all that water in one area and she said the water did in fact run onto the carpeted area a little bit as onto a new wood adjoining floor.
She then told me she "thinks" they primarily do commercial floor cleaning but but not exclusivly.
And yes..he is liscensed because she did check .
Thanks
andyCreation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
Dear Andy,
If I were you, I would ask your sister to fill a claim with construction contractor board. I surely know this is lot scarier to bring this guy to court; because it will directly affect this guy business. Thus, he would take care of this matter. Your sister, I strongly think, shouldn't be a victim of any one's sloppy job, even without paying.
Good bye and good luck (for your sister)
Thanks tp...hope all is well w/ you
andyCreation arises, is sustained for awhile, and then things change. That’s the dance.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
http://www.ramdass.com
What i did not see in the posts was, did the tile & grout get clean?