As soon as the mud/clay dries out Bob and me will be dozing the property again with a new driveway cut out.
I have some corrogated plastic drainage pipe to sink into the drainage ditch in front of my property….a culvert.
I want to do some sort of apron or whatever ya call it…maybe 30-40-50 feet long X about 20′ wide on my driveway thats several hundred feet long or so.
My idea is to do something a bit different.
Rather then Belgium block I had an idea to use river rock set into a dry mix of concrete and sand 4:1….sprinkle in the mix on top of the rock about 2″ from the surface and then add sand as the final application.
I’ve never seen this done before : )
Also thought of doing the edges of the driveway in Belgium block in the form of a throth (sp?) for water drainage and the look…next to that river rock built up a bit as the boarder.
BEyond the stone center I thought to use blue 3/4″ stone pebbles because theres no way I could afford to do the river rock all the way.
Any thoughts on this idea of mine?
Be stoned
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, “Not always so”!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 7/17/2004 10:39 am ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Replies
snow removal?
_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
snow removal?.....Shouldnt be any different than any other pebble or stone driveway........
####.ya had to bring up snow........ugh......if it aint snow its mud around here..#@%$#^%^*$$&(^*&(
Be blown : )~ snow that is...lol
aNDYThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
snow removal?.....Shouldnt be any different than any other pebble or stone driveway"
Andy,
The TB limestone we use out here compacts and freezes, in the Winter its like concrete. When it's dry in the Summer, t's like concrete. (maybe not that hard, but no loose stones)
Jon
wasn't sure how "proud" the river rock would be_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
"I thought to use blue 3/4" stone"
Andy,
What is "blue 3/4" stone"? Out here everybody uses crushed limestone as it is only $7.50/ton currently (I just purchased 23 tons last week)
Jon
Jon
I didnt wanna get chewed out here again by calling it "gravel" which is the wrong term I think...
Its basically what yer talking about.
It'll be interesting to compare prices tween yer neck of the woods and here in yer brothers neck of the woods.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
last time I bought 3/4" stone (~20 years ago) it was $230/20tons delivered._____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
""gravel" which is the wrong term I think... Its basically what yer talking about."
Andy,
Maybe, maybe not.
In the shop in NY we laid down something that was blue/grey called "item four" when we did the parking lot. Definately not limestone, as that is bright white.
Out here there are dozens of limestone quarries around. The stuff we use is called "Traffic Bond" (TB) and depending on the # contains anything up to, and smaller than the #. ie 3/4TB has everything from dust to 3/4" stone, #2, 2" and smaller, etc...
A little water and compaction, boom instant driveway. The wife has the digi came today (she went to Chicago for the day) but I'll post a pic tomorrow of the stuff.
As for comparing prices, there is a quarry about a mile from me where I've purchased washed #1 stone several times. Last time I think was $7.50 for just shy of two tons (I did pick it up though)...And the guy I go to for screened topsoil last time charged me $20.00 for 2.5 yards of that (Premium sandy/silty dark brown loam).
Jon
Andy,
Some pics. Currently adding "pavers" to the sides. The base was done in 1 1/2" TB (~6" to 10" depending on where), I'm building in the sides with 3/4TB (adding ~2"), and have my skidsteer (bobcat) guy finish the topit with 1/2". for a smooth look.
Jon
Edited 7/18/2004 10:44 am ET by WorkshopJon
Jon
Very cool.....bizzare looking product.
I've never seen it before although it reminds me of the roads at The Bethpage Restoration (you remember that place right)?
I believe they did something very similar back then.
Does it come in colors?
I sort of doubt you can get it around here otherwise I'd have seen it somewhere I'd think.
Be stoned
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
What it am? Looks like the cleaning out the mixer sort of stuff.
Joe H
Looks like what we call caliche. Nice base, but it tends to be a little messy when wet if it's used as a top surface.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
---"Looks like what we call caliche. Nice base, but it tends to be a little messy when wet if it's used as a top surface."---
Yes, that is what is called here too. It does set very well because for driveways and highway bases it is crushed as is mined and so it has much 1/2" to 1/4" caliche rocks crumpled in there, along with some sand.
Works fine and it is not too messy when wet but it is dusty if very dry.
That is what we have here in our "gravel roads".
Gravel pits screen their material for size and those "river rocks" are not from today's wet rivers, but the biggest of the screened rocks in gravel pits, short of the true rocks several feet around. Different grades of sand are the smallest of the clean material in the pits.
They were originally on the bottom of rivers and have been deposited in places where now there may or may not be a river.
Every gravel pit around here has them for sale to landscapers, along with the really big and pretty ones for single rock or small rock group features.
Our local stuff for driveways is called: Base material or highway screenings, if it comes from a highway that has been redone.
andy with all the good suggestions you got here, i'm curious to know if after all your excavation's there did you find an inordinate amount of shells??? if so i would bet dime to donuts that the initial driveway whatever the placement or configuration there were crushed oyster shell that would be replenished every coupla years. am i saying to restore to the shells nnnnaaahhhhh that would be ....ridiculous... but that was something i'm curious about. but that would be inexpensive , and believe it or not better traction in the snow. i know cause in new england were i from it was a frequent sight to see especially around the water.........from left field your pal.......bear"expectations are premeditated resentments"
bear
You "know" theres oysters shells all over my property you sly dog you.
you been down my basement.
Dont tell anyone here about the cave in from the blown out wall you helped me with....lol.....member my brand new washer and dryer blown away from the wall and filled with fresh concrete when we poured?
Well the concrete is still falling out of the bottom of the dryer each time it spins....lol....still works though.
Where I'm moving the bottom of the drive I know theres no oyster shells just soil and clay. Not sure how much of either till we start digging.
Its different all over the place here as you know.
Dozer's been sittig out front with my sign uptop the cab waiting for a few dry days to dig.
See ya for David Bromberg the end of the month.
Be well
andy PS...You doin' Mike Fest?
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
hey i honestly forgot about those oyster shells....... i do vaguely remembering some where hearing pulverized oyster shells are used as a binder in some kinds of "ye olde mix's" of mortar.... as far as the fest i'd really like meet some of the folks here but the wife's parent's are in tough shape and my getting away is iffy but i'll still like to try to introduce myself to some of the people's here . so all's not lost....... b"expectations are premeditated resentments"
Any thoughts on this idea of mine?
Yeah, this past week I priced a truck load of 1" to 3" river rock. 22 tons delivered was $1,575.00. If anyone can find it cheaper around Ct I want to know about it.
We talking about the same stone?
River rock..like smooth faced ROCK.not pebbles...right?
Sounds like you got a great deal.
Around here on L.I its going for about a hundred bucks a ton and better.
I hear that its becoming rare because they actually take it from rivers and thats not looked on kindly anymore.
In your opinion (I havent worked with it in about 7 years).
What do you think of it laid flat for a driveway rather than cobble stones?
think it can be worked with well enough to give a semi flat surface from the stone you were getting or do you think it'd be too many ups and downs in it?
BE stoned
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
IMO, crushed stone will settle in and lay with each other for a more firm and semi-permanent surface because the sharp corners tend to interlock with one another as it gets driven in. The river rock wil want to roll and scatter more, but it dfoes look prettier. If you still have an unsetled construction drive now, you do not want to surface it with river rock. use the crushed to build some basae and after it si driven in for a year or so, and you want to upgrade the look still, then you top it off with river. You just don't want to waste that money now since it sounds to me like it will dissapper in the mud.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
what's the nice neighbor lady think?_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
when you first mentioned river rock I was thinking the 6"-12"+ variety, not the little ones.
seems I've seen the larger rocks used in driveways from long time ago _____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
bobl
river rock is mainly used to build walls which I've done many of but havent ever seen it used for a driveway which is why I was asking....seemed like a good idea unless there will be too many hills and valleys with it.
####The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
OK, so we are talking about the same thing.
I'd bet your last dollar that I've seen drives like that, but they were in places (time) when horse drawn carrages were used.
they were not nessessiraly the smoothest surface. the rocks being "proud" hence my question about snow removal.
my uneducated guess is that what you want to do is quite doable, just have to find the right technique.
for some reason Appian Way is popping into mind. _____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Via-Appia.htm_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
bobl
Very very cool.......first thing that comes to mind is Apian way? LOL
Yeh thats the first thing that came to my mind too...lol
I never even heard of that.
So if they could do it so can I and doing only fifty or more feet rather than entire roads I think I could get the hills and valleys to lay a lot flatter than they did.
Very very cool...did I already say that....yeh, Katrina says I tend to repeat myself.
BE stoned
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Can you or have you given us a picture of what this "river rock" looks like?
Based upon what I understand to be defined as "river rock," it would be the last thing I would consider for a driveway.
Despite what the others say, I figure you got some sense in you, so there must be something about this what you call, "river rock." I gotta see a picture.
Andy,
Over the years I've referred many a driveway questioner to this site:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/cobble01.htm
Check out the index for a complete listing of what they have available.
I have a 900' long driveway, after grading and compacting the base, I layed down 4" of remilled/recycled asphalt. Compacted it. Then had guys spray hot liquid asphaltum over it, then set a layer of chipstone over that and again compacted the whole thing. The final compacting locks most of it all together,m but there is a fine layer of loose chipstone on the surface. It doesn;t migrate off the drive and into the grass or woods.
Looks great. Avoids the ribbon of black asphalt, it's economical on a large scale, and it looks and sounds (crunch) great. Pennies on the dollar if you do it yourself, about $8-$10 a sq yard if you hire it out.
It's held up well over the winter as well, I have a 44" snowblower on the front of my garden tractor, with the skids set at 5/8ths of an inch virtually no stones get thrown.
A couple of years ago we were over in Germany, in Mainz. We were walking down the Rhine and at a hotel we passed they were doing a fishscale pattern in the hotel drive with granite cubes. What started out as "Let's stop for a beer" turned into me watching, then helping the workers, for a couple hours. I picked up a few tips and I'm raring to go on my own place.
When I did the chipstone on the drive, I stopped it about 60' or 70' from the house. After I get the garage built (someday<sigh>) I'd love to do a combination of the fishscale pattern and a complimentary pattern/border of granite cobbles or setts in the turnaround area between the future garage and the existing chipstoned drive.
Here's another link showing the fishscale, it's about 2/3rds of the way down the page:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/setts01.htm
>> ... fishcale pattern ...
Isn't that a great pattern? I wonder why I've never seen it on a tile floor?
Mongo
thanks for that site.its going into my "favorites".
It'll really help me a lot I think.
Thanks again,
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
IMO, crushed stone will settle in and lay with each other for a more firm and semi-permanent surface because the sharp corners tend to interlock with one another as it gets driven in. The river rock wil want to roll and scatter more
No question about that. You're right. As one who has a little experience with driveways with slope, crushed is the only way. My client insisted on river and now has a 4x4 only driveway. But he doesn't have to worry about growing any moss.
Y'all paying big bucks for river stone might think about leasing a truck. Mine comes from the Shenandoah Valley (several quarries) for a big $7/ton premium, all the way up to $15. I only put it on relatively flat, stable ground.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
PAul
My intention was/is to dig down approx a foot or so....lay in a good six inches of bank run then crushed concrete then a 4:1 concrete sand mix and tamp the river rock into that, then sprinkle it with the garden hose ...the last remaining inch or so between the stone use sand.
also am considering digging a small trench along side each side of the river rock driveway and adding cobblestone to make a throth towards the street. I know I know.....its a bit much if I want to do all this stuf around here in this lifetime with just my guys and me.
I'm thinking maybe fifty feet or more of this idea then just bluestone pebbles (3/4")the remaining cpl a hundred feet or so unless I can afford to go further with the river rock/troth idea.
Spose I'll experiment first on a small walkway to the mud room first.
I figure on ordering a whole lot extra river rock...pick out the seriously flat ones for the drive and walkway and use the rest for small retaining walls.
Geezzzz I always take on more than I probably should but the ideas are just so part of me I can't seem to help myself
Be andy....ughThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I was speaking mor eof the lon=ger run of the drive and not the apron in close.
I also assumed that the river rock was graded to 1" or thereabouts and now I understand that it seems you are trying to make it look like old cobblestone. Your base of crushed crete will interact much like crushed rock will, I believe. Before you put down the crushed crete though, you need to compact the bank run in under. If your soil is like here, you want top go down about 18" instead of 12" for your base.
I can't comment on how the drymix will stand up, but I remember reading about the Roman road builders and why their roads are still hanging around today. Said that they placed a twenty to thirty foot deep base of stone gravel mix well tamped in first.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
PAul
Not sure what the soil is like where the 50ft apron will go till we dig...waiting for a few dry days before digging.
The soils here change alot from space to space...sand, clay, top soil etc etc.
I'm praying for no clay for that first 50'.
And yeh....didnt intend to do the rest of the drive till we have grass planted...Grass planted.OMG..that'll be the day..it'll look so different after all this time of nuttin' but dirt and mud.
A neighbor just did the six inches of sand portland mix tamping in the cobblestone and it seems super duper solid.
I've seen them drive a cemnt truck over it only a few days later to do the back of the property.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
ain'tcha glad that in the middle of all this, you don't have to be worrying about a hundred Breaktimers showing up for a fest any day now?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<ain'tcha glad that in the middle of all this, you don't have to be worrying about a hundred Breaktimers showing up for a fest any day now?>>
Paul
I may have to turn gay for a minute and give Mike a wet sloppy kiss...lol
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
One last thought...
If you go with dry-layed blocks (can be used with mortared blocks as well), some manufacturers market granite blocks that look like an inverted, truncated pyramid.
__ _/
These blocks are laid in stone dust, or something similar, and layed with little space between adjacent blocks. The idea is that due to the shape, each block acts as a wedge when loaded from the weight of a vehicle. The wedge action allows the driveway to resist deformation and depression from vehicle traffic better than straight-sided blocks.
Don't be depressed,
Mongo
Mongo
Thanks dude......for the thoughts.Certainly appreciate them!!!
I need to always go funky though...its just my nature...lol...funky but artictic and practical....well somewhat practical...lol.
thats one of the reasons Katrina and me work so well together after all deez years.....she "trys" to .....well you know.
Be funkadelic
---> andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Hey bro,
Anyone who strives for a driveway made from something other than a nasty ribbon of azzfault deserves a good round of applause.
be a cobble,
Mongo
Can oyster shells still be had there?
They make a nice drive, kinda stinky when fresh though.
Joe H
My basement is loaded with oyster shells (dirt floor)The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
LOL.... andy and i live 4-6 miles away from a town called " oyster bay" and there may a few shells over there he can scare up....
45438.30
slainte........b"expectations are premeditated resentments"
Please don't take this wrong: My spelling sucks, so I'm not trying to be a smart azz with you, but since your earlier post had a question mark after it, and you've used it twice, the spelling is "trough." Feel free to correct mine, I need all the help I can get. : )
How much does a bag of cement cost there ?
I mean, dry mix. The powder. No aggregate.
To lower costs you may want to do what some municipalities have taken to doing.
To save some money in creating the bed of the road, some are mixing dirt with dry mix. (Put it down dry.)
You could do that, water it down, let it sit for a few days, then bring in your rock.
I am going to give this a try at the bottom of my drive. If it works well, I will use the idea for all of it, and probably also for a trailer pad and parking pad.
I have determined there is a huge clay deposit at the foot of my drive. At least 50 feet by 30 feet. And who knows how deep. No matter what I have put there, it has sunk in the wintertime. Including a bunch of concrete blocks and about a ton of bricks ! Everything sinks totally out of sight.
At the moment... from last winter, there are indentations out there that are 3 feet deep, by about 6 feet wide. Some smaller around, but all of them deep. It's like a roller coaster ride, coming into the drive. And that is at a steep angle. A rise of about 17 feet in 30. I think the clay gets wetter and wetter with the constant downpours, once the winter starts... And it eventually becomes this great mass of quicksand below a crust of semi-solid that is about a foot or so deep.
I am going to cut some of the crests, mix that with dry mix, and then dump that into the depressions. If that sinks this winter, so what. It will be really big chunks that sink. If I keep at it that way, eventually I'll have the place full of big chunks, and the problem will stop.
Right ?
Right ?
Someone tell me this sounds good.
Before anyone says anything... Anything that costs more than maybe 20 dollars a month is not in the list of possibilities. Big equipment, and dump trucks full of materials will happen about the time I am able to move to Mars. Or maybe when I become president.
I have a back and arms. I have a pick, a shovel and a wheelbarrow. I can afford an occassional bag of concrete, and an occasional pickup load of pit run or 3/4 crushed. That's it.
It may take years to get it solid, at this rate, but it'll take a lot longer if I do nothing at all.
: )
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
I believe before I started paying for anything to go in there I'd call around and see if I could find some broken concrete for free. If your driveway is closer than an alternate destination, you might even get it delivered. And if you want big chunks, real concrete is bound to hold together better than your clay/cement mix.
Unc,
I tried that.
I live so far out in the sticks that no one is farther out, and has broken concrete. No one wants to bring it all the way out here for free, and it would cost more than twice as much per load, just to go get it myself... as a load of gravel would.
Whatever I do, I have to be able to bring it out here myself. A little at a time. As I can afford it.
The concrete blocks and bricks, (all unusable for their intended purpose), that I threw down, I got for free, for going and picking them up. That was close enough that it didn't cost any more than a load of gravel. And they were really big things with shapes and edges that might tend to lock together.
I am always on the lookout for stuff like that, and if I find some, I jump at the chance. The drawback there, of course, is that I don't tend to get out much anyway. Due to agoriphobia, and expense.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
Luka
I wouldnt recommend wetting the dry mix first.
I would put down some bankrun then some crushed concrete.
then add a 4:1 portland sand mix (about 6" deep)... tamp your stones into that,then add some more dry mix between stones to about an inch from the top.
Then broom sweep it clean and THEN wet it down.
The final day, add sand in the remaining inch or so and wash that tight into the whole kit n kaboodle.
Least thats what I'm planning on doing.
I've done small jobs this way and its worked great.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I did say to put it down dry. Then when finished compacting and all, wet it.
At that point, it doesn't much matter whether you wet it or mother nature does. It's going to get wet no matter what.
: )
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
You could do like I saw a Japanese guy doing for a creek bed through his garden--set each little (like 2" dia) stone in a mortar bed by hand! Pob'ly only take you three or four years! ; )
LOL
I could see me ending up doing that.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
In response to: "And who knows how deep. No matter what I have put there, it has sunk in the wintertime. Including a bunch of concrete blocks and about a ton of bricks ! Everything sinks totally out of sight." Maybe we know what happened to Jimmy Hoffa!
Shhhhhhhh
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
Back in dawn of civilization as we know it - otherwise known as the '70s - when the city kids decided to return to the earth in their hippy mode with no money, some friends of mine used something they called "dirtcrete". This was simply a mixture of Portland cement and sandy soil. I remember later reading that someone had done something similar by rototilling cement into the dirt to form a road bed. I think someone appropriated the name dirtcrete for some type of not-too-successful commercial product but I found a similar item under the term "soil cement":
"soil cement
(See page 52 in foundation chapter for more about soil cement.) Make up test batches as if you are mixing cob, but add different amounts of cement to the dry ingredients. You'll probably want a soil cement floor to be at least 4 inches deep. Try tamping some of the tests. Dry the samples. Did they crack? Are they strong enough to walk on? The surface can be cut, printed, or pressed to look like tiles or shapes. The spaces between the tiles can be filled with a different colored soil cement to look like grout. Soil cement can be used to make tiles. Both these tiles and the poured soil cement can also be used for the floors of patios and porches.
You can use a rototiller to make soil cement floors (or even roads) if you have a sandy soil. Figure on making them 5 inches deep. Calculate how much cement to add (6 to 10%) to each square yard or meter.
Sprinkle the cement on and mix it all up dry with the rototiller. Then spray it with water and rototill it again. You can tell if you have the right amount of water if you can squeeze it into a ball and it holds together, and if when you break the ball in half, it doesn't crumble. Then rake it smooth and tamp it well. Remember to let it cure slowly. "
from: http://www.weblife.org/cob/cob_042.html
Thanks. I will definately be giving this a try when the time comes.
Probably right around september. -ish. LOL
There is a lot of gravel in there, as well, not just soil. I have laid down a lot of gravel. Even though most of it has disappeared, it is certainly in there.
If I make solids out of what are the ruts now, I think next summer I will be filling ruts between those. Over time, I will have a very rough surface out there, but stable. A very rough and stable surface is exactly what I want out of that steep hillside. I don't want a nice finished smooth concrete driveway. Very rough will make for safer access and egress. Just not so rough it becomes a danger in that direction, either.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
I thought the addition of portland cement to soil was fairly common when needed??
I've observed (some time ago) pallets of cement bags poured over already graded and tamped areas of CR-6 (crushed rock mix) in parking lots under construction. Usually, grader with a pronged blade in rear goes over the area multiple time to mix it up, then it is regraded and compacted again.
I recall it having something to do with density- the area failed when checked with a densitometer, so they had to modify the soil with portland. It must have worked because it was paved soon after. . .
Andy--
Your river rock set in sand/dry cement won't ever really harden up; you'll have ruts where the wheels roll regularly fairly soon and they will have to be bulldozed/graded flat every X-many years.
If you want the visual effect of a river rock driveway surface AND a firm permanent surface, you're gonna have to prepare the substrate the way a road is built, going down below frost line with 6-12" rock, compact well, add a 12"-15" layer of 3-6" rock, another of 1-3", compact well, add a geotextile, and then finish off with a good 3-6" of rock dust depending on the size of your round stone. Lay the stone on that and compact together. Wash off excess rock dust....
Personally, I think it's too much work and I'm also having trouble reconciling the visual imact of those two very different materials (Belgian & river) existing side by side.
If you've got the buck$ I'd go Belgian block all the way on a decent bed of compacted rock dust, with more dust swept into the grout lines once it's laid. Proven, very pretty, fairly costly. Classy, in other words....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?