Hello All,
I’ve got a roof plan here that looks weird to me. We don’t do roofs angled (other than 90 degrees) from the body of the house very often. This is computer generated by Softplan. The ridge behind the angled garage is pitched. But I see no other way to do it. Am I missing something? Roof will be stick framed.
Thanks,
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
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Replies
I see what you mean.
My first thought is why wouldn't you continue the hip to where it would intersect but that woud create a kind of divot, a place to catch and slow water, not good.
Others may disagree or be more creative but it looks to me your best solution.
After copying your larger photo and drawing out the hip it wouldn't create the divot I thought but while it would work it doesn't present an appealing roof line. This is a very curious read.
Edited 10/30/2007 9:21 am by jagwah
At this point, any suggestions are good ones. I am open to any alternatives. My brain is jello right now from staring at this for hours.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Hope this works. Here's my systems idea.
Soory I deleted attachment it didn't come through.
Edited 10/30/2007 9:34 am by jagwah
Edited 10/30/2007 9:34 am by jagwah
Got a PDF of the floor plan?
If you wanna send it to me I'll put the plane in our program and take a crack at it.
You can email it directly to me if ya don't wanna post it here.
But basically I think you're right - You're stuck with a sloped ridge.
Ron,
Here is the plan if you want to take a crack at it. I think with trusses it will definitely be a sloping ridge. I guess what is throwing me is that I've never seen a sloping ridge. With stick framing on a similar job, we ran the two roofs so that they intersected and one laid on the other. I guess I'll post a pdf of that also so you see what I'm talking about.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Are all the roof pitches the same?
The trouble with political jokes is that they get elected.
Its not actually a ridge - it looks like an odd hip, which I suspect is why its not level. Are you designing this, or just building it? It looks like a fluster-cluck to me, I'd definitely consider rethinking the design (I would have to spend some time studying the junction of the planes in 3d, using a program like sketchup, to come up with a more logical solution) if that were an option.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Design & build. I know I could simplify the roofline if I parallel the two walls that are giving me fits but I also kill alot of potential garage space.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
How I would have handled it
View Image View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Yeah, that was one of the simpler versions I came up with and the easiest design by far, but it required changing the floorplan by a heap
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Check posts 40 and 41 for my suggestion for keeping the clipped corner. If I did keep that odd detail (although it would be interesting to know why he designed it that way in the first place), I would never do a hip/ridge hybrid like the original design.
When you 45 degree clip the corner on a hip, the hip remains in place, as a hip, and the diagonal wall rakes up each side (at the slope of the hip) to meet it. i.e., if its a 9:12 roof pitch, then a clipped corner at 45 degrees will rake up each side at 9:17, and if its other than a 45, then the angles will adjust accordingly.
So the first suggestion was given to show how a much cleaner roof line could be arrived at - but also to show the roof planes that I would use as the basis for this roof, even if the clipped corner is added. In other words, the basic roof planes would remain, and the angled wall below it would rise to meet it.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 10/31/2007 8:48 am by Huck
You are right. I would design and build it the way you are talking, but when something like this comes up on the forum, I am always debating whether to tell somebody what to do or do I help them figure out how to do what they are already doing. In this case I presumed John had some very good reasons ( perhaps setback lines or other site problems restricting some of the shapeWith so much work already gone into the plan, I took the latter, I was also mentally involved in solving the problem from a techies POV in order to help me learn some of the little tricks in SP - more "how do I make this happen?" than "What is the best way to design this sort of layout to make it more liveable" or "...more buildable"When I design myself, I do some interview work to figure out how the client thinks and lives and what they think they want in a house, then get them out of the way.
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You, sir, are a smarter man than I.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 10/31/2007 5:54 pm by Huck
Dhuh...?
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Oh, you mean the customer management?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
you could do it the old fashion way and go get some foam board and play with that. Working stuff out with a computer is fine put I find it easier to wrap my head around things if I have my hands on it.
A small scale roof would solidify that jello. Some times ( actually most of the time) the old ways are better. Build a model.
I don't think that is a ridge. It's a funny angled hip.
Edited 10/30/2007 10:16 am ET by popawheelie
Ok, from that image, are there really two soffit heights? Looks like the "return" (the lower angle from the lower edge of the angled-off "bit" runs under the main (up-down) roof line (which would 'match' the return of the half octagon below).
That will complicate things.
My "eye" wants to carry the top of the "T" over and terminate in a gable end. Then but the lower, diagonal roof into that. Not elegant, but workman-like, after a fashion.
Other wise, bring that ridge from the top bar of the T over (so it is equal to the left side of the main roof ridge), then, "spring" pseudo-hip rafters across the "bevels." Since the three corners make a triangle in plan, there ought to be a "flat" ridge that spans to the diagonal part of the plan--it just will likely be a very strange angle to the rest of the plan.
I've got 4 soffit heights. 8' main, 10' to left and right of porch, 11' on rear great room, and 12' on porch. How's that for making your head spin. I have no problem with different soffit heights. That is just another day at the office. The tie-in on these two roofs is throwing me. I agree that essentially this ridge has become a hip ridge with this roof design.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Here's what I came up with based on your floor plan. It might not be exactly to scale, since you didn't have dimensions everywhere.Does this look about like what you came up with?
If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?
Here's something that might be worth thinking about. I put a little "notch" into the garage, back where it's not doing much good anyway. Don't know if that's an option - It was just a thought.
Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice. [Henry Ford]
Ron,
It is all the same pitch 9/12. I can't see any reason to mix pitches unless we need to lower the ridge. It still has the sloping ridge. I did toy with notch idea to create a flat ridge, but it loses alot of garage space. You know how precious that is. Heck with a big garage and a kitchen that's all a man needs. Thanks for your time and input. That sloping ridge is what has been baffling me. I've never seen one before. But if you tell me you have then that is good enough for me.
I sent a copy of the plan to the Oracle, so we'll see what he has to say.
Thanks,
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
"I can't see any reason to mix pitches unless we need to lower the ridge. "
That's exactly what I was trying to do. I didn't figure it would change the elevation enough to be noticeable.
"I did toy with notch idea to create a flat ridge, but it loses alot of garage space."
I kinda figured the space you lost was fairly small, and was back in the wedgie corner. So it didn't look all that valuable to me.
"That sloping ridge is what has been baffling me. I've never seen one before. But if you tell me you have then that is good enough for me."
I've defnitely seen 'em before. But they generally aren't that long.
Living in the past, and proud of it.
I was thinking along that line at first, then to creating a dutch gable for the ridge of the garage to line into
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OK, brief look.I can see in my head what to do and how frame it, but problem is fooling the program to listen to me.Here is what is going one first -
The program needs load bearing walls to anchor roofs to. In the absence of a wall, you can create a "beam" and make it only 12" x 1/2" or whatever but it will retain the properties to tell the program to build the roof from there.There is a little nook in exterior walls that has some c.8" walls making up a return of sorts there. One of those walls is 14' tall for some reason and then there is no wall for SP to indentify as bearing along between garage and the roof section behind it To make the roofs marry up the way I want, I will trace roof on different sections of the building rather than use auto roof, then trace the garage roof onto the rest and adjust the interset.To do all that will take some beam placement and height adjustments.The varying heights of walls complicate things a little bit but not too bad I don't think.Would be easier still if the garage were to pull forward a bit...but gotta run off to work in the real world here now.
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"The program needs load bearing walls to anchor roofs to."
I'ev had that problem before. I have smoetimes input a wall, got the roof lines the way I wanted it, then deleted the wall.
Life has a hill. Get over it.
Don't know how many folks are following this thread, but I'm lovin' it! Kinda fun to watch smarter folks than me solve this 3-D puzzle.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
It is a fun puzzle, like a rubic's cube.Now, if I fail to solve it, does that mean I am less smart than you???;)The pressure is on now....
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I liked a Rubic's cube better. When frustrated, you could take it apart and solve the puzzle.
I've tried Boss's idea and put the notch in the garage. It did cut down on the length of the hip ridge a bunch but I just keep thinking that I'm missing an easier solution.
Also I didn't fully grasp what you were trying to explain earlier about.....
There is a little nook in exterior walls that has some c.8" walls making up a return of sorts there. One of those walls is 14' tall for some reason and then there is no wall for SP to indentify as bearing along between garage and the roof section behind it
To make the roofs marry up the way I want, I will trace roof on different sections of the building rather than use auto roof, then trace the garage roof onto the rest and adjust the interset.
I know about adding beams and hidden walls and such. I didn't understand the c.8" and I couldn't find the 14' tall wall you mentioned. I've always hated the roof feature of Softplan. Maybe it's better in the newer versions. I never use autoroof unless it is just a very simple roof. I typically use trace roof.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
E-mail is on the way to you with a new roof on it.c.8" means aproximately 8" from the latin circa ( around about)The drawing you sent had a couple of short in length walls where the front garage wall comes back into the main house. One of those walls is at a 135° angle and is 14' tall. I changed it to 0° angle and 8' tall to get it to quit interfering.Anyways, I am attaching a couple JPGs here for the others.
to draw this I had to trace two roofs, one on the main house and one one the garage to intersect the main, then fiddle with portions of roof width to make ridges intersect right. There is still some junk to clean up in the 3D because the intersection is not cleaning up. Also, I edited one edge of that main roof to be a gable end rather than hip to bring it out where it would intersect.BTW, I thoroughly understand your frustrations. I tried about twenty some variations of different things. It was a good learning experience for me.
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I'd hate to hang the gutters on that. Reminds me of one we did last year, looked like a mousetrap game bred with 4" plumbing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
how 'bout if we add a couple dormers sop it won't need gutters?;)
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Well we had this going on..View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
You forgot a piece there...
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I think we were there 3 weeks or more, what a nightmare. Of course all the undergrounds were not where they would match with the drops, so some fool had to dig em up and re-route..LOL
At some point Dale tossed a golf ball up on the main roof, it went through 3 pipes and 4 troughs before it saw the ground.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
the gutters are insane but I like the general details of the structure."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Thanks for you insights. But I still have some confusion. Hopefully I'll be able to open the drawing tomorrow at the office (don't know if v11 will open 12) and answer my questions. In the birdseye view, it appears that the ridges are parallel with the eaves on the right side of the garage but on the left side of the garage the ridge coming off the house is not parallel with the left garage wall. I would assume that the ridge would need to be equidistant from both walls and thereby I end up with my climbing ridge because of diverging walls.
In the 3D, I understand the cleanup issues inherant with Softplan. I've got alot to learn with Softplan and I've been using it for 15 years. Are both birdseye and 3D generated from the same drawing? Typically the cleanup issues show up in the birdseye and are also visible in the 3D. The original drawing I posted actually covered up a few clean-up issues that showed up in my birdseye view. John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Here's my version.
I think pic1 is what I was looking for. It almost seems too simple. I'll check it out in the morning. It looks similar to what we did on another job a few years back.
Thanks,John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
That one I had a couple times while playing around. It was easy to get SP to do it, and would be easier to frame, but just seemed unappealing in 3D to look at. It is basically a first step to what I showed in mine. if you add another ridgeto connect the buildings, you get rid of the funky valley but cleaning up the other side adds some other details to clean up
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As I suspected, V11 wouldn't open the V12 drawing. I've been mulling over buying v13 but was afraid that as soon as I did that v14 would be released.
Thanks for your help,John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
I can't resist posting a couple 3d's.
Crazy,
What software are you using? Thanks for the help.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
I'm using Mitek -- I'm a truss designer.
OK, Let me see if I can save as v11
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No can do on that v11 - surprised me no option for that....Oh Well. I think I still have v11 functional. Maybe i should have worked in that version for you. Something to remember next time.
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The program sure is picky about versions. I tried exchanging drawings with someone who had the same version that I did. My version was somehting like 13.1.7 and his was 13.1.8.It was the same as having version 13 vs. version 11 - You can't open a file with a newer version number, even if they're close.
Ambiguous headline: JUVENILE COURT TO TRY SHOOTING DEFENDANT
And if I were to try op[enning one of my origianl drawings from V9, I would have to find my floppies and add some pates on to make it possiblle. major change in the internal brains of SP at V11, first fully windows ccompatible - or was that ten...????
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V10 was the first "windows version". It had alot of bugs which is why I immediately updated to v11. I just about have the elevation completely done. You baffled me when you mentioned 8" and 14' walls. When I turned on the profile views I saw what you were talking about. I have no idea what happened other than maybe when I edited a wall height I may have hit inches vs. feet. I fixed all those and learned alot about Softplan and roof design this morning. I actually managed to have Softplan draw the intended roof with only minor clean-up issues. I wish I had the time to use Softplan to its fullest potential. BTW the "base drawing" I started with was a plan that evolved from a v9 drawing that I updated over the years. I think the next time I use it, I'd better start from scratch in the current version. Seems like updates always have a quirk or two.
I do have some setback issues that I am dealing with. The lot is only 120 feet wide, semi-wooded, starts dropping at the back of the curb, and it will have a walkout basement. At the front porch, we will be about 5' out of the ground so we will need a bit of fill. This should be a fun project.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
I started on nine, and skipped ten, partly because the computer I was on probably could not have handled it, and partly because I couldn't see paying to upgrade when the only major improvement was DOS to windows. I got eleven and twelve and am compatible with it there so I just never jumped to thirteen....There are some nice features there I could use and would save time if I were designing as much as I'd like
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Boss,
Whenever you have a certain version of Softplan, lets say v13 in your case, you can go to Softplan.com and download patches that raise you up to the newest version (ie. 13.1.7 to 13.1.8). That will get you compatibility with all v13 users. Also those patches will fix certain glitches that may exist.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
You idea is an interesting one. But it sure leaves a long valley in there.
Smoking kills. If you're killed, you've lost a very important part of your life [Brooke Shields]
I drew up MiCrazy's approach this morning and the simplicity of it is what I was looking for. From a stick framing standpoint, we can build up the house to garage wall to carry the rafters and hip coming off the house. Then just prop the garage ridge on the garage wall and plant the garage roof on top of house roof. This approach is what I was looking for but my brain being recently turned to jello from staring at the monitor too long wasn't working. This is where I sought the help of the great people of Breaktime.
With my limited truss background, I am assuming this approach would be a truss nightmare.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Study it from the drawing and you will see what you need to see.In this bird'seye Jpg, I cleaned up the errent lines first to show as it would build
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a couple JPGs here for the others.
Thank you.
I like the way that intersects, wish I'd thought of that elegant a solution, rather than two oblique valleys.
Uhm, is that an uh-oh, about 10 o'clock, "north" of the half octagon, on the roof plan?
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
There is a funky detail there for him to finesse a bit. Some walls are 8' and some are 10' or 11' or 14', so the roof piece that shows as a hip in the upper left with about a 2" valley just almost planes with the overall left roof which is set on a taller wall. I didn't bother with that.Also there are a few studs poking through the roof here and there where a wall still needs to be told to "fit to roof" and there is a fluorescent ceiling light or something that didn't stay anchored to a ceiling (or the ceiling is not drawn yet) for some reason
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there are a few studs poking through the roof here
Gotcha. Been through some 'wars' with ACAD's Architectural Desktop product, where you get to cope with the 'joy' of "slabs" which can make a person pine for a t-sqaure and graphite-filled pencils <sigh>
Saw that little fillip, and it made a "ding" go off that the smarter-than-drafter s/w might be being cranky.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Now, if I fail to solve it, does that mean I am less smart than you???"
Nope. I wouldn't even know where to START with this one!
Actually, I'm waiting for someone to print out a truss plan for this, er, "roof" and talk the OP out of stick framing. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
would definitely be tricky with all the varying ceiling heights
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"would definitely be tricky with all the varying ceiling heights"
Not at all - Just takes a bit more time.
I attached a pic of a "stepped truss" that I recently did for a house kinda like John's.
You'll notice that I left the bottom chord long where the height change occurs. That way it can be field trimmed to fit up against the higher wall as needed.
I wasn't hired for my looks, ya know.
(-:
Reality is a nice place, but I wouldn't want to live there.
That office building you did for me had stepped trusses like that. And the wide open spaces that needed clear span trusses.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
"I'm waiting for someone to print out a truss plan for this, er, "roof" and talk the OP out of stick framing."
I could do it - No problem. That one's not even a real challenge.
But John doesn't use trusses on houses as a general rule. He just hasn't seen the light yet.
(-:
Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are unnecessary
I won't argue the efficiency of truss framing, but in our area the only houses that get trussed are the production homes. Typically (as shown here) our roofs are too cut up to be done easily with trusses. The only time we truss is when we have large open areas that cannot be effectively stick framed.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
"...our roofs are too cut up to be done easily with trusses."
I have no problem with anyone who prefers stick framing, as you do.
But I don't see anything in this house that would make it difficult with trusses. If anything I think it would be easier overall - Like you would need fewer bearing walls, for instance.
I think it's generally more a function of what you're used to and what you like than what is or isn't easier.
We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees [Jason Kidd, Dallas Mavericks]
Something like this?
I am on SPv12 if you want to email me a copy of the whole plan to look at. if you are v13 I don't know if I can open your drawing so save as for v12
[email protected]
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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I'm on V11 still. You should have no problem opening it. Heck I still open V10 drawings. I'm contemplating making the jump to 13 one of these days if I get time. I'll email the plan over but keep in mind it is a bit rough.
Thanks,John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Here's one more crack at it. I played around with the roof pitches to try to change the roof lines. In this case I used 7/12 and 9/12.I think I'll quit with that one unless you have some other input or I come up with another idea.
If you look as bad as the picture on your passport, you probably need to go somewhere
I do have some ideas about it, but too many Qs to ask about details. If I have the plan, I can study it and modify right on it.
Might take a day to get back to you. Got some things lined up for rest of day - just home waiting for a phone call right now
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wire frame version
View Image
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Actually your design with the bump-out is good. It also adds a little space in the garage. The tall wall clipped hip idea is a no go. I have no problem using rake walls at times but that wouldn't be good on the front of a house.
What do you think of the simplicity of MiCrazy's approach? That is actually what I had in mind but needed to be slapped on the forehead to see it. John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Actually your design with the bump-out is good. It also adds a little space in the garage. The tall wall clipped hip idea is a no go. I have no problem using rake walls at times but that wouldn't be good on the front of a house.
Then I would eliminate the clipped corner, or use cantilevered beams to carry the corner, and put the wall where you want it.
What do you think of the simplicity of MiCrazy's approach? That is actually what I had in mind but needed to be slapped on the forehead to see it.
Well, there you have it. And come to think of it, wherever you go, there you are. At any rate, his plan shows the garage in a completely different location than you had it in the original drawing.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Garage is in the exact location I had it. There are just at least 2-3 different ways to layout this roof. I just couldn't picture it no matter how many times I got up from the computer or how long I stared at the screen. I've always enjoyed the fact that I can come to Breaktime and get ideas/insights from other professionals in the business. If you check out Crazy's 3D drawings, it shows what I was after. It's not to say that there may be other better ways. I like simplicity.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
OK, I see now. I just saw the ridge lined up with the hip in your picture, and the wall lined up with the hip in the other. But it was because of the odd way the hip was drawn in your pic.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 10/31/2007 5:54 pm by Huck
and if you insist on keeping that goofy clipped corner, this is how I'd handle it
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Now that the roof is settled you might want to change the kitchen layout so that the person at the sink doesn't fall backward over the open dishwasher door and kill themselves.
Also, you need a 4" step down into the garage and some smoke detectors ....
Jeff
picky.....picky......picky
1. If they trip over the dishwasher, they shouldn't be in the kitchen...and they'll only do it once.
2. I never place smoke detectors on the print unless the local plan commission requires it. The electrician knows where they go and can sometimes see a better place than if I specified on the print.
3. Step down will be more than 4"....will be more like 22.25" once I factor in slope on the garage floor, probable 16" I-joist, plate, subfloor, wood flooring.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
>...at the sink doesn't fall backward over the open dishwasher door...<
My current kitchen has this config but with a 6" cutting board cab between the sink base and the DW. Works great.