Another nice money maker for hard times.
Swapping painted plywood kitchen cabinet doors for new custom oak. In and out in two days, without disturbing anything on the shelves.
There are millions of development homes, built fifty to eighty years ago, which still have their original kitchens, including painted plywood doors and drawer fronts.
The hinges are junk, making the doors swing stiffly and close poorly.
On the other hand, the cabinets were all built from solid pine so they still serve the basic purpose quite well. So why not remove the old doors and drawer fronts, paint the face frames semi-gloss white and install new oak doors, including European hinges?
It can be simple and quick, using made-to measure doors and drawer fronts from a big specialty house. And it can be priced very attractively.
Of course there are lots of add-ons which can be offered but the basic job makes a great impression and nice profit too.
I really like the appearance of oak surrounded by a white frame. The doors stand out as individual pieces of woodwork rather than disappearing into an oak paneled room. I’ve used whitle porcelain pulls to accent the frames.
1. Sell and measure the job. Schedule the installation for a safe date, knowing the lead time required by the door maker/finisher.
I would represent the doors as custom made but avoid saying by whom. I’d also take a sample door, mounted in a painted frame, as a full scale demo model. Let them see how nice it looks and how well the European hinges work.
2. First work day: a) remove the old doors and drawers. b) fill the screw holes in the frames c) sand and prime the filled areas d) paint the frames e) take the drawers back to your shop and install the new fronts.
3. Second work day: a) install doors using European hinges. Pick up final check.
This is a natural for referrals, lots of them. It’s also a job that can done by anyone with basic skills and a little training so it should be easy to keep pace with rapid growth. Pricing it at $1000 profit per job, assuming no commissions, should make everyone happy and keep the local custom cabinet shops at arm’s length.
BTW. I did this exact refurb in my parent’s home, about twenty years ago. It changed the feel of the entire house. My mother was completely blown away, as were her friends in the neighborhood.
Replies
Possibly a good idea, but where will the money come from? The days of HELOCs and the refi ATM are over, and gas is headed for $5/gal. Seems to me that folks living in old houses with painted cabinet doors will have to spend their disposable income on more important stuff like food and utility bills.
The hook is the low price and amazing improvement...without putting their kitchen out of service for a couple of weeks or more.
In order for this idea to have appeal it has to be presented correctly...to people who have only heard about replacing the entire kitchen and how much that costs. Those are the ones who have written the idea off because of budget constraints and investment return potential.
Of course there are many people living in development homes who can't afford it. But there are also those who live in them just out of habit, even after they can afford something much nicer.
There are also certain developments which have become more valuable because of the kind of community which has grown up around them. Those are the places I would target first because improvment expenses can be justified more easily.
If I were going to do it, I'd begin with flyers or a color photo ad in a local business circular. Depending on the community, I'd even try going door to door...with my demo unit in hand. Direct sales can be very effective, as long as you have enough perserverance and belief in the product to keep a positive attitude through many rejections. Carrying a nice looking cabinet door in a frame will make most people curious.
I tried that in MI and got little response. Consider though I was no marketing master by any means!
Some issues came to light:
Matching new door finishes to old cabinet finishes often looks funny IMO.
The cost of drawers and doors is the majority cost of new cabinets, especially cheap ones from HD or Lowes.
HD & Lowes already offer that service so you're competing with them.
People (at least in MI) aren't spending money on refacing. Either they live with the old or come up with the extra $1,500 for a whole new set of cabs.
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
An important part of selling a product/service is NOT explaining ALL the options available, to the HO.
If you make a cost comparison during your sales pitch, it should be one that shows your product in a favorable light, like what a new custom kitchen costs vs. your custom made doors.
From what else you've said, I assume that you stopped reading my original post after the first paragraph.
Nope, I read the whole thing twice now. Wood doors on white frames looks funny IMO.
HD or Lowes will be your competition.
The cost is close to all new cabinets and the customers will know this after they visit HD or Lowes and see cab prices.
What am I missing?.
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Wood doors on white frames looks funny IMO.
The rest of the kitchen is the same white. Also original tiled counter tops are white. Light blue linoleum patterned floor. Everyone who's seen it likes it.
I like it much better than oak frames and oak doors when the entire kitchen is painted in the same color as the frames.
What am I missing?
You're missing salesmanship and being the first person to give them this idea. If it's presented as something new and sold as a custom install, there's no reason why they would go looking at a big box because they wouldn't consider it the equal of what you're offering them.
That's why you do direct marketing, to get your foot in the door first with your "unique" offer. One of main things that kills direct sales of home improvements is when the salesperson finds out what's available cheaper from someone else. He/she forgets all the advantages of doing business with a small custom operation and only sees the cheaper price offered elsewhere.
Remember, you got the HO's attention with your ad or by showing up at their home, ready to present your sales pitch. This potential sale is begun by you presenting this "new" idea, this inexpensive, fast way to remodel their kitchen. If you're good at selling, you'll walk out of your first meeting with a signed contract and a check. And they'll never even think about going to a big box.
OK good luck..
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
I think i remember when i lived in NJ there was a company that did that, They put an ad in the TV section of the Sunday paper
There was a least one company doing what they called refacing around NYC and northern NJ back in the seventies and eighties. They may still be at it.
They removed the original plywood doors and drawers, took them to their shop and refaced them with formica, what ever the HO chose. Then the installer went in and refaced the cabinet frames and ends with the same formica, finishing with the door and drawer installation.
I went out on one of their installations once, looking at becoming a sub. The contact cement was enough to put me OUT...for a couple of hours after I left too.
This idea of new oak doors and drawer fronts is an entirely different concept. Much more in keeping with what's acceptable today.
This is very common. Sears and Hommer do it on a wide scale.Looking in the yellow pages there is a section for Cabinet Refinishing Refacing and aResurfacing.Look at the list at least 4 do that. The other might just do painting or refinishing.And under Kitchen cabinets I think that there are the same 4 plus 2 more including Sears.And googling on it you will find all kinds of companies that do it and also suppliers for materials.http://www.reface.com/
http://www.rockler.com/CategoryView.cfm?Cat_ID=69Here are 3 local companies.http://www.cabinetreface.com/
http://www.mcguirecabinetfronts.com/
http://www.cabinetcladkitchens.com/However, most of what I have seen is that they do both the frames and the doors.Yours would be a little cheaper with painted frmes.But you also would want to do counter tops.But I think that you are rigth.I think that there is a market for "refurbishing" rather than remodeling.Mostly screw driver and brush remodeling. Paint, light fixtures, paint stained trim, replacing trim, flooring, countertops, backspashes, take out spindles in 1/2 walls. etc..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I haven't looked at that market in twenty years so I'm a bit surprised to see how many guys are doing it.
It's really so simple that I shouldn't be surprised.
Anyway, I believe in it because it's so simple and because it fits so many budgets. The idea of only needing two days to do the job is a big selling point too.
I agree that there are many add-ons to offer; repainting the kitchen, countertops, floors. But I believe that keeping the initial offer very simple and to the point is the most effective way to get a positive response.
Keep an eye on $$ for them, instead of trying to sell them a bigger job. Big effect for a small price, that's what this plan is all about. In most cases, I'd let the rest of it go until after the doors have been in for a few weeks before presenting other possible improvements. Of course, if they asked about countertops I'd be prepared to sell that option too.
Edited 6/9/2008 4:13 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Note.other than the countertops I was not suggesting that the other things go with the cabinet refacing. But might.Rather I was comment some similar type of "remodeling" work that I see going on today that is realatively inexpensive but can do lots to update a house..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I understood what you were suggesting OK. I'm just looking at the new door sale and installation as an inexpensive, quick job which can be done by almost anyone with a little bit of training.
Countertops are often a more difficult and time consuming job, requiring plumbing skills and etc.
It's not that I would avoid countertops or anything else that came up. I'm just suggesting a way to sell and schedule a day to day line up of simple, profitable installations with few, if any, problems.
Get busy? Hire a painter for a couple of days, to take care of all the prep work. That's as easy as calling or visiting a paint store and asking for the name of an experienced painter who works by the day.
Busier yet? Teach the painter how to install the doors and then sub jobs to him.
Edit: Please understand that any post I write in a thread which I began is aimed at expanding on the original idea, even when it's in response to a specific suggestion, like yours.
Edited 6/9/2008 6:16 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I'd certainly like to agree with you, but...
I believe you are seriusly underestimating the "painting" portion of the job.
These old cabs like you say, are made out of pine. A softwood. Softwood when exposed to years of HO use, changes in profile. They beat the fecal material out of it.
If you think a brush on coat of some white HD latex is gonna work, frankly, I wouldn't hire you.
I've subbed out the painting of cabinets because of this. A decent cabinet job has to be sanded out, patched with bondo, and several, maybe many, coats (of a good lacquer) need to be applied with an HVLP or similar. Many hours.
And oak over paint appeals to a small part of the population. I certainly hope it doesn't get any bigger.
Other than that, I tip my hat to your enthusiasium.
I believe a bigger market is to remove the base doors and replace them with drawers.
I believe you are seriusly underestimating the "painting" portion of the job.
If you think a brush on coat of some white HD latex is gonna work, frankly, I wouldn't hire you.
Gee, I guess it's a good thing that I don't work for wages anymore, huh?
I've recently been in my family's home, where I did the job I've described in this thread in January of 1992. The painted frames look nearly as good as they did after I last painted them, in '92.
I filled and sanded the frames and cabinet ends, with a palm sander. Then I brushed on a latex wood primer, probably Behr. Top coat was also latex, semi-gloss, one carefully applied coat.
Why do you try to associate my work with Home Depot? Is that your idea of a clever put down?
I brought this idea up to help guys who are looking for different ways to sell a product and service which fits a large number of less expensive homes. If you've got a better idea, start another thread and present it.
Geez...
He and I just presented a different opinion than what you wanted to hear.
If it makes you feel better: yes, it's a great idea and will be spectacularly lucrative. There, is that better?.
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Did my reply sound angry to you? Or was that what you wanted to hear?
LOL
you: "Is that your idea of a clever put down?" "...If you've got a better idea, start another thread and present it."
I guess those were happy comments and I just misunderstood. .
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
The first is a fair question about what looks like a snide remark and the other is a suggestion about how to be helpful.
I'm trying for clarification while you're trying to impose your own interpretation on my remarks. Two different worlds.
Edited 6/9/2008 8:41 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
hahaha whatever....
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Oh Buttkickski2, you're just 2 kewel.
;-)
I think it's "kewl"..
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
"Why do you try to associate my work with Home Depot? Is that your idea of a clever put down? "
WTF?
May I ask where this came from? Oh, the next line tells me the answer:
"I brought this idea up to help guys who are looking for different ways to sell a product and service which fits a large number of less expensive homes. If you've got a better idea, start another thread and present it. "
I see you stopped reading what I wrote just after where you picked it up the wrong way. Your reading comprehension leaves a bit to be desired.
I'll have to go along with Buttkicksi,
It's a wonderful idea. I'm sure you'll make millions. But not in my house.
As I said, "two different worlds".
special....
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Yeah. Who ever knew that trailer trash would be in style?!!
Oh well, I've seen some pretty "unusual" things take off in my time...
Your idea has merit and if the marketing is done in neighborhoods where tight budgets are the norm, it could end up being a great idea. I'd probably cart in a small sample if I was selling that idea. I'd probably also offer three levels of pricing: the paint job, refacing and all new. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'd probably cart in a small sample if I was selling that idea. I'd probably also offer three levels of pricing: the paint job, refacing and all new.
I agree about having a sample of the door, on European hinges in a face frame. That's a very important sales tool.
I like the idea about offering three levels. It creates a pricing framework and offers the HO choices. Even if you have a good idea of what they want, that can be very useful in moving the sales presentation along toward closing.
I say ignore the nay sayers and go for it.
It's basically the business of refacing cabinets. Personally, you'd never sell me on the white cabinets with oak doors. The cabinet faces could be veneered with oak. Also, the option of replacing countertops is pretty much expected in that kind of service. Do your research, see what sort of cabinets/counter tops you'll be working with, find out the turnover time for doors, the hardware options, hinge types available.. there shouldn't be too much to it.
I think most businesses never get off the ground because they lack enthusiasm. Or they underbid their jobs, but just don't underbid. I think the business is there for someone who get's serious about it.
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I like the idea--in fact I have been planning to do something similar in my own house in the next year or so.
actually-- I am thinking of building faceframes w/ biscuits---and then the doors and drawer fronts.
probably won't do it in Oak---but maybe cherry
or--the rest of the house is trimmed in Walnut--might do that.
the number of people my wife brings through the house for parties,teachers meetings, book clubs etc----betcha I get some sales out of it over the years.
stephen
Oak has a lot of visible grain, it's patterns moving and variable. When each door or pair of doors is framed in white, they become distinct components of the kitchen. Otherwise they all blend together, like Zebras in a herd.
I'm big on contrasting colors to highlight shapes and make clear impressions.
I was thinking you could present this idea to real estate people if they wanted to have sellers spruce up there older homes before selling.
I was thinking you could present this idea to real estate people if they wanted to have sellers spruce up there older homes before selling.
I like that! The job fits very nicely with what RE agents usually suggest to HOs who are trying to bring their place closer to modern standards.
And once you convince a RE agent of how quickly it can be done and what a big difference it makes in the home's appearance, the agent will sell the job for you.
If you could connect with enough agents and get referrals from your clients you could do a nice business without having to pitch the product at all.
Thanks for that idea.
Getting the work from realtors will be the easy part, its getting paid thats gonna be the problem.;]
Getting the work from realtors will be the easy part, its getting paid thats gonna be the problem.;]
I guess I've been fortunate. For the most part I've had no problems collecting from home owners...as long as we had a solid agreement, in writing, from the start.
Got singed a couple of times, early on, but never badly burned. Just good learning experiences.
We just had our kitchen refaced. A bit more involved but basically the same. The guy that does it is looking for a helper, if anyone is southern MN is interested.
We just had our kitchen refaced. A bit more involved but basically the same.
How do you and your family like it? Does it make sense as an investment?
The guy that does it is looking for a helper, if anyone is southern MN is interested.
Doesn't Frenchy live in that area? ;-)
We didn't price new cabinets, so I can't offer a cost comparison, but we really like the results. This guy veneers the face frames and sides with 1/8" plywood rather than regular veneer. He also does the bottoms, so they're finished flush, much nicer looking than the open cab bottom.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Oh cool. Did he apply the finish? How well did that turn out? I'm kind of keen on finishes because I'm used to seeing top-quality cabinet finishes from my last job, and a wiped-on stain followed by brushed urethane just isn't the same thing.
He buys the doors and drawer fronts, pre-finishes the plywood himself.It turned out real well.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
And the guy has more work than he can handle.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Sounds like a really good idea that someone who is loking to pick up whatever is out there in slow times could adapt and use as they see fit in their market.
Every single detail doesn't need to be ironed out in this thread but a lot of positive suggestions did get brought up.
A few negative thinkers but....whtas new about that.
we need them too, right?"What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."
I like your thinking on the speed - a lot. The mess and hassle of a remodel is a major, major deterrent for a lot of homeowners, especially in the kitchen. But of course, we don't think like that, because we're in houses in various states of construction all the time.
I'd say the oak doors + white frames is a weird aesthetic choice that won't appeal to everyone. I would offer CHOICE combined with VALUE.
Give yourself some options:
- Get new MDF doors/drawer fronts with whatever profile they like, and spray them whatever color they want, then brush the frames to match. Or keep a set of standard colors so you can cheap out and get to the bottom of every can.
- As for solid wood doors, I'd provide whatever wood they want with whatever finish they're willing to pay for. Are you doing the finishing yourself? Are you an excellent finisher?
- For the face frames: Formica, Wilsonart etc. have all manner of fake wood laminates. They're durable and will apply relatively quickly with a laminate trimmer and some prep work. (I mean quickly in relation to applying and finishing real wood veneer.) This approach could really fly.
- Do countertops! Make money on the sink, the faucet, and the top. And I don't know what you all do, but one idea to rattle around (if you're really slow and really want to branch out) is that backsplashes walk with counters. And there are more kinds of backsplashes than tile, including stuff like formica, fake tin and what have you.
This is all more and more money you're expecting the client to spend. I get it. But there are some folks out there who canNOT bear the thought of living through a kitchen remodel - and some of them have money!
Edited 6/9/2008 11:02 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Of course anyone can adapt the basic idea to his/her own potential market and it's preferences. The only problem about offering a lot of options is that it tends to detract from the sales process.
The concept I'm pushing is all about keeping everything simple and inexpensive. That means whenever a decision is called for; door design, stain, finish...that there be only two options for each. That moves the conversation along toward signing the contract.
If you're working a regular day on installations and going out every night on a sales call, you'll be much happier when you're able to get through the presentation in less than an hour and go home with a check.
Most tradespeople don't have much training in sales so it's important to keep that part of the process simple for them too.
Here is a business in town who has been doing this for 25-30 years
The company is called "the cabinet lady"
I hear her radio advertising on a regular basis
Her pitch is that you will have a new kitchen for far less cost
I went to the website and was hoping to see before and after pictures but they didn't have any
Good luck!
http://www.cabinetlady.com/home.nxg