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Another rental question.

bruceb | Posted in Business on January 30, 2005 07:32am

Ok,

           Long story but when my wife announced she wanted to have another baby we were in the middle of getting the financing to build our dream house. Paid cash for the land and had plans and all the details worked out. Couldn’t swing that and a stay at home mom too. So, we bought a house until she went back to work.

         Lots changed since then. Fertility treatments, a premature baby, $100,000 in hospital bills, I’m back on active duty and she has a new career. So, Nine years later it’s time to move up.

          We saw a nice house a block away but it was sold before we could act. It did however get me thinking. I’m in a three bedroom 2 bathroom townhouse with a finished basement. Rent in my neighborhood is around $1100 a month. Comps for my neighborhood ( all sold in the last three months) are all around $150,000. I paid $100,000 and owe $70,000.My mortgage with taxes is currently $760.00 per month. Lots of people want to be in this neighborhood because it’s the entry level for this school district and around here thats a big deal.

        All the single families we are loooking at are around $300,000. I’m considering taking $40,000 of the equity out of my current house and buying the new one, keeping this one as a rental.  I’m thinking I’ll end up with around a $950 a month mortgage here and $1800 to $2000 a month at the new house. If anything goes wrong we can sustain both mortgages.

         My question is, at $150,000 market value and $1100 a month rent with a $950.00 a month mortgage, is this worth it? Or, is it a losing proposition.

        Also, I’ll not have to move anywhere that I can’t commute to but I’ll most likely get deployed again. So, what is the usual management company fee? I don’t want my wife to have to worry abut two houses if I’m away.

                   Thanks

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  1. User avater
    jonblakemore | Jan 30, 2005 08:09am | #1

    Robert,

    I'm probably the last guy that should be answering this question. I have thought a lot about rentals but have not really had any real world experience. I will be very interested in the responses you get.

    Having said that if you sold your house you would gross about $80k. If you took this money (forget the other home and home equity loan) and invested it you would need to achieve a 5.1% rate of return to match your gross rental income. Subtract from the figure your expenses (maintenance, managing costs, vacancies) and I think you would be scraping the barrel.

    Of course appreciation could work in your favor so your renter is financing your nest egg.

    Just my thoughts.

     

    Jon Blakemore

  2. alwaysoverbudget | Jan 30, 2005 08:12am | #2

    1st lets talk taxes right now you sell you have 50k profit tax free as a homeowner. now if you turn it to a rental you take what you paid as a basis for depriciation which is 100k. now after a few years plans change [as it sounds like you have experenced] and you sell for  150k.pay off 110k in mortgages and uncle sam has his hand out for his part [the 50k profit] lets just guess you pay 10k in taxes. you walk from closing table with 30k less selling expense. now more whatifs. rent at 1100 per mth= 13,200 income ,less 10% vacancy [sounds high, i always thought so to but after 30 yrs it is pretty close,maybe 1-2% high] - 1100= 12,100,lets say you have a pretty good year and spend 500.00 on maintanece =11,600 less mortgage ,taxes ,ins = 11,400. so you have a profit of 200.00 a year, not exactly going to go to disney on that but there are some benifits that are not directly in pocket. hopefully the house apperciates over time,even though it can go down also,but thats all risk and reward. on a 30 yr mgt you will be making the equity of roughly 300 a month . but if you didn't have this property you would have a 50k less mortgage on your own house = 6% at 50k = 3000.00 less in interest charges,so that all most becomes a wash. plus you will recieve a few tax benifits. as far as local mangt. goes i am a believer in that if you have to turn over a 150k investment to somebody that has nothing to lose ,your going to have trouble.anyway around here they get 1st month  rent, the 10% to collect every month so take that out of your income. guess how often they would like to see renters move? bottom line is it's noy something your going to get rich at but if it's a good solid area and you can put up with the worries involved it will look good someday when it's time to retire,or it's time to put that little one through college [thats where i'm at now!] larry

    hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

  3. Mooney | Jan 30, 2005 12:52pm | #3

    I dont like it. Its not enough money" over"  for taxes , insurance  , payments, maintaining , and profit. Loss from no rents.  You are planning on leaving and dont want her to have to handle it . Its a negative cash flow.

    Doesnt sound like its for you . You are in a good deal now to save money. JMO.

    Tim Mooney 

    1. bruceb | Jan 30, 2005 05:40pm | #7

      Tim,

                 That was my thought too. Lots of my friends insist it's workable and that I'll get rich off of it. They also own rentals downtown where you can pick 1/2 of a twin up for $40k, dump $5K into it and rent for $500-$600 a month.

      1. User avater
        intrepidcat | Jan 31, 2005 09:35am | #17

        They are getting close to the 1-1.5% per month return.

        It's a golden rule to make money.

        The appreciation bet may not always be a bad bet but this rule ain't a bet.

         "I was glad that when everything finally hit the fan I was holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown, Texas called the El Gato Negro."

        1. Mooney | Jan 31, 2005 01:28pm | #18

          53388.18 in reply to 53388.8 

          53388.18 in reply to 53388.8 

          They are getting close to the 1-1.5% per month return.

          It's a golden rule to make money.

          The appreciation bet may not always be a bad bet but this rule ain't a bet.

          You are right but dont explain it far enough.

          Basically the 1 percent rule is norm, but all is not equal.

          A mobile home used bought as a repo will do much better than that , but it wont be worth anything in 30 yrs. Its tough getting one percent from brand new houses as rentals in good hoods. Those are two extremes to show comparison. Most stuff is between these two. So........ It matters what age and what hood the property is in. It has to be figgured becuse a 5 yr old is worth more than a 30 yr old and the hood should be better on the 5 yr old. Once a hood and a house gets 100 yrs old , its not desirable and commands much less rent unless its somthing looking at the ocean or somthing like that. There becomes a difference in that 1 percent rule as well. 100 yr old houses can command as much as 2.5 percent here , but at retirement , I wouldnt have much value and maybe a big loss such as tearing it down and having the lot after all the years of paying .

          1 percent on a new property is good. Often there are no repair bills for a number of years on new . You need more on the old over losses.

          Tim Mooney

           

          Edited 1/31/2005 5:30 am ET by TIMMOONEY52

          1. User avater
            intrepidcat | Jan 31, 2005 05:07pm | #19

            Excellent points, Tim.

            I was keeping it short because I thought the other points would be brought out eventually.

            Thanks.

             

             "I was glad that when everything finally hit the fan I was holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown, Texas called the El Gato Negro."

  4. MikeSmith | Jan 30, 2005 04:54pm | #4

    robert.. it sounds like you're in the same kind of area this town used to be..

    at one point  we owned two houses.. we sold both to build this one... turned out to be a big mistake..

    we should have sold one and borrowed some more against the other.. but hind site is 20/20..

    if you are certain you can swing both come hell or high water, i'd hang on..

    the stock market may be going to the dogs , but they are not creating more land and buildings in the areas in high demand.. if your area could ride out an economic  downturn.. then values will be preserved

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
    1. bruceb | Jan 30, 2005 05:37pm | #6

      Mike,

                     I'll never get rich on what Uncle Sam is paying but I'll retire comfortably. I'm just looking at adding to that and I'm unsure as to how much risk to get involved with. I have an uncle who was riding high with like 10 or 15 rentals and then the industry in his area folded and he lost them all as well as his own home.

                    but they are not creating more land and buildings in the areas in high demand.. if your area could ride out an economic  downturn.. then values will be preserved

                  Exactly, and if renting this house out is not for me I'll shift to plan B. Around 30 min west of here things are starting to pick up. I can sell this house and put all the money into the new one and then look at raw land. On my last land only deal I was 200% net after 7 years. The first five were a bust but the last two were golden. The area I'm looking at is in around year three or four relative to my last deal.

  5. User avater
    MarineEngineer | Jan 30, 2005 05:08pm | #5

    No risk, no reward. If everything goes even moderately well, you will find yourself in a good position 5/10 years down the road.

    Biggest problem is the management of the property. For some reason, many tenants think that it is quite OK to live in your house without paying rent. Are the laws in your area tenant or landlord friendly?

    I'm selling two rentals right now, tired of being a landlord. I'm away so much on ships that things don't get managed well while I'm gone. But due to appreciation, I'm still going to make over $200K for my efforts over the last nine years.

    The biggest risk that I see is that the burden of management (even with a mamagement company involved) will fall on your wife if you get deployed. This could destroy your marriage.

    Best of luck
    Marine Engineer

    1. bruceb | Jan 30, 2005 05:47pm | #8

      The biggest risk that I see is that the burden of management (even with a mamagement company involved) will fall on your wife if you get deployed. This could destroy your marriage.

       Since I'm on a title 32 program I most likely won't have to Permanant Change of Station again. In February I move to an E-7 slot that feeds to an E-8 slot. With that done I can go until 24 years of active service before I have to worry. Doubt I'll stay that long.

       Deployments are another story. i'll be gone at least two more times before I can retire. 18 months with three kids, a big house and tenants might just do her in. She's strong but it might be abit much.

       In the end I need to get some hard numbers and revisit this. I would be more positive if I knew I was going to be around but I can't count on that.

  6. blue_eyed_devil | Jan 30, 2005 06:44pm | #9

    Congrats Robert on finding yourself in the enviable position of having options. Your 80k equity position despite the financial battles of the past are a testament to you and your wife's hard work and discipline regarding financial matters. Your question also shows that you are creatively investigating new ways to capitalize on what you already have achieved. You are entering the world of creative real estate investment!

    I agree with Tim's assessment that the margins are too slim, at today's market conditions. It is quite possible that your cashflow would be significantly better in coming years with rent increases, but that is speculative and I don't think that you need to speculate since there are many more options available to you today.

    Since you qualified your question with your major concern "I don't want my wife to have to manage this...", I'm going to offer up a compromise idea, a lease purchase or lease option.

    One of the major benefits of using the lease option technique when selling, besides captureing future appreciation, is the elimination of the landlord trap. A lease option, and lease purchase is basically two seperate contracts executed at the same time. Since the tenants are also the future homeowners, you can write into the lease aggreement language that requires them to do all maintenance up to a fixed dollar amount, usually around  $200 or more a little more. This clause basically eliminates all the nitpicky day to day landlord traps like toilet plunging. Any amounts over $200 are usually major capital improvements, but they can be effectively managed by using a Home Warranty insurance policy too if you want to eliminate those possibilities too.

    I'd suggest looking for a hungry tenant buyer and sign them up on a 2 year lease option rather than a lease purchase. I'd set the selling price at 75% of the anticipated selling price of the year 2007. Using a  5% appreciation rate, the townhouse would be worth  157k in 2006, and 165k in 2007. Using that formula, I'd offer up the townie at 160k and show the tenant buyers that I was helping them save 5k by buying/leasing now instead of waiting till 2007 to sign the deal.

    The normal option fee is 3 to 5% which is nonrefundable. 4% of 165k is $6500. That would be yours to keep forever, even if they didn't exercise their option to buy. That money is also yours to keep taxfree, until the option term expires or they buy the house. In your case however, the taxes might be exempt anyways because this has been your principle residence...this is a tax situation that I've never thought of....see your REAL ESTATE CPA for competent advice in this area. I've paid $200 per hour for REAL ESTATE  CPA consulting....it pays...it doesn't cost!

    You will also be able to charge higher than market rents by using the lease option or lease purchase. I would offer the property at $1300 per month and offer back $100 per month as credit toward the purchase....on the condition that all other lease agreements are met including condition of the property, prompt payments, etc. You can also write in a rent increase in the year 2006.

    Who would enter into this lease option/purchase? Your target market would be renters that have higher aspirations, or buyers that have a hard time qualifying for conventional mortgages. They might be young families that are finally getting decent incomes (we were all there at one time), people that are finally emerging from medical financial difficulties (medical bills are one of the leading reasons for bankruptcy today), people that were reckless with credit cards and have had their epiphany (that pretty much includes everyone nowadays), divorced people with damaged credit as a result of the split, and SURPRISE SURPRISE....SELF EMPLOYED people that do a great job of reducing their taxable income only to find out their credit rating drops too (me and many others like me). When I make my move out west, I intend to buy my next house on a lease option, or more likely take one "subject to". I don't ever see myself ever using conventional financing again for my personal residence. I've done that in the past, when I didn't understand these other financing techniques, and they worked great, but never, never again.

    Analyze the numbers again Robert, using the above mentioned figures and you'll find a great way to enter the world of real estate investing while also eliminating the one major drawback....tenant mangement.

    blue

    ps Run to the bookstore and devour everything relating to real estate investment. I've read a ton of stuff, listened to a lot of information.....every book/tape gives me a another brick or block for the foundation. My favorite author recommendation at this time is Peter Conti and David Finkel (they co-author several books). They explain everything in very simple terms and offer a real world method of negotiating both the buy and sell of lease options as well as taking properties subject to.

     

     

    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!

    Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!

    1. bruceb | Jan 30, 2005 07:11pm | #10

      ....SELF EMPLOYED people that do a great job of reducing their taxable income only to find out their credit rating drops too (me and many others like me).

            Try this on for size. Self employed and fighting the battle to pay off all of the Doctor bills and such. Finally get it done. Have a big career and life change. Vow to never be in Debt again so now except for cars and the house everything is Debit Card. Don't have the money? Don't buy it.

       Ever see what that does to your credit score? Seems I have no " Current Credit History" 

       So, everything for the month of december went on the card and is on a 5 or 6 month payoff plan. Might have to do it one more time to get things back in line.

       So Debt is bad and No Debt is bad? you can't win this battle.

       I'm going to print out your post and read it away from the computer. See how it sounds when I have tiem to think long and hard about it.   Thanks.

      1. DanT | Jan 30, 2005 09:35pm | #11

        I'm on the fence.  While I agree with Tim this isn't a typical middle of the road rental so it should have better than average appreciation.  I guess if you can swing the deal in the worst case senario I might give it a shot.  But only if you are sure of that fact because as Tim said the margins are slim.  DanT

      2. blue_eyed_devil | Jan 30, 2005 09:51pm | #12

        Vow to never be in Debt again

        Robert, a great book to understand the difference between good debt and bad debt is anything by Robert Kyosaki. He talks a lot about good debt (debt that produces cashflow) and bad debt (consumer debt). My wife is a prime example of a person that views all debt as bad debt, but she hasn't taken the time to understand the principle of business borrowing.

        Your plan to re-establish your credit history is wise. The thing I don't understand is how/why your mortgage doesn't give you a credit history. You mentioned that you owe 70k....the only thing I can assume is that it is a private mortgage, or it's in someone else's name.

        Also, it's probably wise to understand that your credit history is only important if you are financing a personal residence using conventional financing. Most of the uninformed borrowing public are unaware that there are literally thousands of ways to borrow without ever having a credit history pulled. Also, it is important to note that if you are borrowing for business purposes, the creditors are more interested in the financials of the business proposal, than they are in the credit history of the borrower.

        Robert, if you can fully understand that concept, you'll probably feel a lot better about your current financial standing. I think you mentioned that you now have 80k in equity. Do you know that it possible for you to put up that 80k equity as collateral on a business venture and that you could possibly be eleigible for as much as an 800k loan? For instance, its not unusual to see a 32 unit apartment complex for sale in the 800k range. By using their financial records you often could qualify for a business loan, despite your "lack of credit history".  That wouldn't be my cup of tea, but for some that would be the cat's meow. That building may very well come with a management position that pays 50k per year and delivers another 50k to 80k net profit!  Your 80k equity might be the difference in qualifying for that business loan or not.

        You are far better off financially than you know....you would be wise to invest some spare time to understanding your financial matters. Start as soon as possible and reap the rewards of being and informed decision maker.

        One last thing....most residential loans are made using standard HUD forms and standard conventional loans. These loans are most commonly made because they are sold on the after market the the big guys...Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Convential loan officers don't take into account your significant achievement...paying off serious medical bills and staying solvent. There is another class of loans called "portfolio" loans. These loans are made by small local banks, usually on local properties. The loan officers in these banks have the resources (extra cash on hand) to make reasonably safe loans. Often, people like you are their best customers. Since the loans are "nonconforming", they cannot sell them on the after market,  but the bankers "know" they are safe because of the closeknit circumstances.

        The point is, don't quit seeking loans because the big boys won't loan you. They aren't the only players in the game.

        blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!

        Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!

        1. bruceb | Jan 31, 2005 04:22am | #13

          Blue,

               I should probably be more clear. I have a conventional mortgage and  two regular car loans as well. What's killing me is that during the time we were struggeling I had a huge amount of unsecured debt. We were at the hospital every day for three months and then when she came home we needed a ton of stuff as well. Most for the well being of the baby and some just for living and a fair amount for stuff the insurance company didn't cover.

            I was initially paying it down. I was a sole proprietor and worked like a dog. most days scheduling two days worth of work, leaving at 5 Am and coming home around 10 or 11 PM. When I was Mobilized I saw no way to keep paying how much I was every month so we went to Consolidated Credit Counseling. We paid for about 13 or 14 months and then sold some land and paid it off in one lump sum.

           Problem is I went from putting unsecured debt in a consolidation program to paying it off to not using any revolving credit. Credit score hovers in the low 600's now. I'll get it fixed.

           I'm not opposed to debt I just never want to be looking down at $100K unsecured again.

            I've got a good local bank ( Still has passbook savings with the little stamps) that will make loans a lot of big banks won't.  I've got to do some research an figure exactly how deep I want to get into this and if I would be better served by raw land at this point.

           I did once try to use the equity in my home and some land I owned to buy a business. Two tries and then I went to see a friend who was in commercial lending. He told me he would give me all the money I wanted for a construction related business because I had a track record. Not a dime for a motorcycle shop because a garage full of bikes didn't count as a track record in the motorcycle business. By the time I did get it sorted out someone beat me to it.

           

  7. EricGunnerson | Jan 31, 2005 07:08am | #14

    Robert,

    My wife and I did something similar with our first house when we moved. We used a management company to handle the rental.

    After a couple of years, we decided to get out of the rental business and sell the house. Here's why we decided to sell:

    1. The tax advantages aren't that great unless you are a "real estate professional".
    2. For us, for the rent to cover the mortgage, we need to have about 25% equity in the house, but that kept our return down. When we sold, we didn't lose money, but we could have done better on other investments.
    3. You need to worry about keeping the house occupied. Your management company - if you have one - can help, but if the house is vacant for a month, it can ruin your return for a whole year.
    4. Tenants (and rightly so) want things fixed *right away*. So, while you might be able to live without a washer working until the weekend, tenants want you out there that night. If you can't make it, you'll be paying somebody else to do it.
    5. Your house can't be very nice. Or, if it is pretty nice, it won't be that way after a while, as tenants (in general) won't take care of things the way that you would take care of them. They also may not tell you if something is wrong, leading to damage that you could have avoided if you caught it easier.
    6. You may need to pay to keep the landscaping up (if you handscaping).

    Having said all that, I have a good friend who now owns 3 houses and is doing well on them.

     

    1. bruceb | Jan 31, 2005 08:54am | #15

       Yeah,

                 The more I look at it the less of a deal it seems to be. Rent prices have not risen in proportion to property costs. If I take the equity out I need to buy the next house I then have a mortgage big enough to make this look like a marginal deal at best.

                    I think plan B is to sell and take my $80K and run. That leaves me with around $220K mortgaged on the next one. With that I know I can finance something that has worked for me in the past. Raw land just outside of the current boom area.

                 Last time I was 200% net profit after seven years. Best of all is that if I get called away it doesn't matter. My wife can handle calling a local farmer and having it mowed and sending in the property tax check.

  8. User avater
    intrepidcat | Jan 31, 2005 09:29am | #16

    Doesn't look like enough spread to be more than break even.

    If you could get the rent to about 1 to 1.5 % of value per month you'd do good.

    Anything under 1% per month and it's just a bet on the appreciation.

     

    "I was glad that when everything finally hit the fan I was holed up in a little beer joint in Robstown, Texas called the El Gato Negro."

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