A close friend is having a house built and the roofing was just completed a few days ago. Problem is they installed the wrong color. Giving credit where due, the builder called and informed her of their error before she noticed.
She doesn’t like the color, it’s black and was supposed to be pewter gray, and asked me what to do. My first thought is have them replace it, but that opens the possibility for potential problems. So the only other option is to ask for a credit. How do you figure a fair price for that mistake? Fair to her as well as the builder?
“I know of no higher fortitude than stubbornness in the face of overwhelming odds.” -Louis Nizer
Replies
Who's mistake was it? Roofer's, supplier's, builder's, owner's?
Only seen that happen two times in my career. Once the supplier sent a pallet that had several squares added to it. The two or three squares on the top were right, but the remainder was wrong. When the roof got stocked, the right color shingles ended up on the bottom of the roof piles since they went up 1st. Roof was almost finished with the "wrong" color before the shinglers opened the "right" color bundles and knew something was wrong.
The other time, the owner decided they didn't like the color they had selected after the roof was half done and blamed me for it. Since then, I get the color written in the proposal or contract.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Roofing sub made the mistake
"I know of no higher fortitude than stubbornness in the face of overwhelming odds." -Louis Nizer
Sub just bought a new roof I'd say
Bought as in replace or credit?
"I know of no higher fortitude than stubbornness in the face of overwhelming odds." -Louis Nizer
I'd say replace it . She'll never enjoy looking at it even for a savings I don't think .
I'd say replace. Customer asked for a specific and the sub didn't provide. If the customer can't be made happy with the color the sub covers the replacemnt. I doubt there'll be much damage on a tear-off with the installation being so recent.
My concern with replacement is if the sub and his guys have an attitude, will the job get sloppy with flashing and the like. I would think the step flashing along a sidewall should get replaced, but my feeling is they would reuse it. Another concern is these shingles were installed using 6 nails. Looks like the deck will be well vented too;) Probably a minor issue right now, but can't help but wonder about 20-30 years when another roof is needed
"I know of no higher fortitude than stubbornness in the face of overwhelming odds." -Louis Nizer
if that's the case she's going to have to convince them to tear it off down to the deck & reimburse for the shingles or get them to pay for a tear-off by another company and still reimburse for the shingles.
Has she or you talked to the roofers to see what they're state of mind is for this problem?
Would leaving the roof as is and providing a 100% credit cost him less then starting over ? If so, a credit is what I would offer. I'd probably start with an offer of 25-50% though and work my way up if required. It's amazing how much more you can like something when it's half the cost :-)
I too thought 50% credit would be fair since the job was done first rate other than the color. My friend hates the color though and I'm not sure she would accept 50%. Why do woman have such a hang up over colors lol
"I know of no higher fortitude than stubbornness in the face of overwhelming odds." -Louis Nizer
I think Chucky said it best "It's amazing how much more you can like something when it's half the cost".Sorta goes along with what Matt said about "extra grand+ was just fine so he could get some more trim or something else he wanted (off a long wish list)".Everything just boils down to money. Make the roof more affordable to her so she upgrade her trim. In the end, she'll still complain about the idiot roofer who screwed up the color of her shingles but she will readily admit that the project looks great and she is for the most part happy. This assumes there is more to this project than just a new roof. If she just has shingling done, then there is nothing to take her mind away from the idiot roofer who screwed up the color of her shingles. Then she may become over consumed by something so trite as shingle color; she may complain to her friends, decide she shouldn't have to pay anything, and/or make threats to hire a lawyer or spread bad news around town. IME this seems to happen worst with stay-at-home people; i.e. those with lots of time on their hands.This is why it is best to just not screw thing up ;-)DC
In a case like this, and of course the builder would be in a better position to know where the tight points in the budget are, I might think starting out offering visible upgrades to front of the house that would add more focus down lower. And not start with cash.Additional landscaping, fancier door, paver walk and things like that..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Unfortunately the wrong color will still be there long after the money is spent. I would try very had to sell her on a refund, but in the end it might have to come off at the roofers expense.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What does she want? Will $500, $1,000, or $2,500 assuage her grief?
I know that I would be happy to get a $500 credit to deal with the wrong color if there circumstances were right. On the flip side, I could see a situation where no reasonable amount of money would make it right in my book.
I would ask the builder to make her an offer and then think about it. Don't let your friend be pressured, she should have the time to say yes or no.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
What's fair?
Depends who is on what side of the issue. The roofing sub might think a $500 rebate is fair enough.
But if she does not like the colour in any way, shape, or form, then a replacement is what is called for, no matter what it costs the roofer.
Odds are, this will cost everyone tho. The GC will end up eating some. He does have some responsibility for oversight. He might have to get a different roofer to do it and relationships are broken. It all falls down on how much of a man the roofer is, and whether he's been paid yet.
OTOH, he could have a painter overspray a fine mist of grey paint up there one week when she is out of town and SAY it was replaced and she might buy it, LOL.
I had one lady customer who complained about a bad paint spot in her bathroom, and that the mirror was not level, along with a few other punch items.
I went and spent a couple hours in her bathroom on stuff. The mirror was indeed off level by about 1/32nd of an inch, but I could NOT find the paint flaw she had described.
So I called her in to inspect, and was planning to have her point out the paint flaw. she exclaimed how wonderful everything was and "Oh, thank you soooo much for taking care of that paint spot for me!" when I had never done a thing about that.
I don't think your concerns are valid regarding the step flashing and the nail holes in the sheathing
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And how much it upsets here is a week, a month, depends on how visable it is.On something like FatRoman's roof it would be a big deal.On mine you mostly just see the gable end. You can only see the roof from the road when you are 200 ft away and then only if you are looking at roofs and not the road.I am right now getting estimates for a new roof. And one roofer did not want to put rigid venting on on of the ridges like I wanted and I could not understand why.Finally he said that it would leave a strange bump where it transistioned from ridge to the upper end of a shed roof.I responded, probably, but who is going to see it. Then he agreeded with me..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
he said that it would leave a strange bump where it transistioned from ridge to the upper end of a shed roof.
I'd say he's a good one if he's thinking it thru that well before he takes the job.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Maybe, in that specific thing, but over all. I have seen a couple of interesting things, mostly business practices, but also technical, and I am going to start a new thread on it when I get some time..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"And how much it upsets here is a week, a month, depends on how visable it is."You got that right!The guy who taught me how to install eave edge made a point that it had to be perfect over the garage doors and the entryway."Cause ya know, every night when the owner drives home from work and into the drive, he is miserable from his days work, and from the traffic on the commute, so when he gets home, if the first thing he sees is a bad joint right in front of his eyes...."Kind the same with that lady in her bathroom, every single complaint was something visible when seated on the potty. I guess she spent a lot of time there.
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I did a bathroom a couple of years ago (as a sub) for a really great company. The homeowner was probably the most OCD person I've ever dealt with. She must have called and emailed the office 8 or 10 times complaining that there was a discolored tile and she DEMANDED that it be replaced.
I met her to discuss, she showed it to me, very angry that I'd let it slip.It was a shadow cast by the temp lighting.
My brother had one like that, only he was the painter, HO was going all over the house pointing out shadows that needed repainting,
When they would demonstrate to her what she was seeing she would respond with "Oh I see,,,,,could you just repaint this wall anyway"
My brother was having one of those days with her & listening to her blabber away about everything all the while Fido was behind her using the 60,000.00 rug as a a$$ wiper, he said he all he could do from laughing in her face.
This was a huge project & I've run into so many different guys over the last few years that worked on the house & the stories are priceless.
The best one is the lead finish carpenter showing her another use for the sauna No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.
At first glance, I'm thinking this is a no-brainer tear-off at the sub's cost. But....
If this were to go to court or arbitration, there's no telling what kind of award she'd wind up getting. Unless the contract were written with language specifying that 'colour is of the essence of the contract' or some such, a judge or arbitrator might very well assign a portion of the value of the job to the æsthetics and the rest of the value to the functionality. In that the roof is perfectly functional, how much she'd get back would depend on how much importance the judge or arbitrator gave to the colour. My guess, FWIW, is that that would be somewhere around 25%.
That said, unless this is a small roof that the roofer can afford to eat easily, your friend should probably start thinking in terms of negotiating a rake-off that will not make anyone (including her) so unhappy they'll be willing to risk taking it before a judge.
Explain to her the economics of roofing--how much the roofer pays for the shingles and for his labour, and figure out how much it actually cost him to do the job. Then suggest she start with trying to get back every penny of profit, plus 25-50% of his costs.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
if it goes too abritration everyone loses!! especially the GC and the sub. by the time you get to abritration he will have paid enough legal fees to have replaced the roof.
Agreed. But arbitration is often a better (or at least cheaper) option than a full-blown civil lawsuit, and some contracts specify that as a dispute settlement forum. However, the point my post was to discuss what could happen in the worst-case scenario (court), because that's the end of the line when negotiations fail.
The law is funny about things like this sometimes; we can all sit here and say, yep, roofer effed up all by his lonesome so he's gotta make good...but a judge won't necessarily look at it that way. He might very well find that 100% of the blame was the roofers, but blame isn't the whole story. A judge could also find that the roofer delivered a portion of the value he contracted to deliver by providing a functional roof...and so the HO would only be entitled to payment for the portion of value he did not deliver (a roof that was æsthetically pleasing to the HO).
What percentage of the value of the total job a judge or arbitrator attributes to function and what percentage he gives to æsthetics depend primarily on his personal attitudes towards such things. The split could also depend on how he's feeling that particular day, or whether or not his sweetie pie was sweet to him that morning ....
The roofer himself may not understand all this, but his lawyer certainly ought to. So if he's pranged by an angry HO to do a full tear-off and re-roof, he might just say, sorry, the best I'll offer you is a 25% rake off because the æsthetics of the roof only constitute 25% of its value. You don't like that, sue me.
My suggestion was that the HO understand all that going in, calculate the roofer's costs, and start negotiations by demanding 100% of the roofer's profits on the job plus a percentage--say 50% to start--of his costs.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I had a similar situation. Customer wanted red which was no longer available (low slope) so she got black. She couldn't see the roof from the ground on her property, from inside the house nor I think from the street but was still irked. We painted the roof with red latex but I don't know how it wore. After all you basically couldn't see it from anywhere.
I wonder if the middle ground might be a tear-off and re-roof of the most prominent slope ? Is there a street approach that's the defining view of the home ?
Kind of like having different hubcaps on a car, but you can't see both sides at the same time !
Greg
It must be white!!!
U.S. Energy Secretary Steven Chu :)
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
One of my larger F-ups involved granite and a custom sink. Customer picked out a nice ~$800 SS undermount sink to go with his granite counter tops. I called the granite supplier and said - let me give you all the sink model number so you do the sink cut-out in the granite. Lady said "it's OK - we got it".... A little later I'm thinking... what do you mean you got it? How could you know what sink the cust picked out.... Got busy... Called the next day. Played phone tag.... Again the lady says - we got it.... Super busy so I say - OK... I'm thinking I guess I told the salesmen and didn't remember it.... Turned out that the granite supplier (contracted by the cabinet company) was to supply a stock SS sink - or course it wasn't a nice heavy $800 one... This I find out on granite delivery day.... I call cust immediately - say: "this is the F-up and I will refund you the cost of the sink and give you a "customer satisfaction "allowance" of $300. (as visions of new granite danced in my head I'm ready to throw down another ace or 2...) The cust asked me a few Qs about the "new" sink and then said a tentative OK contingent on an inspection of the "new" sink. Turned out he was happy (enough) with the stock SS sink and the extra grand+ was just fine so he could get some more trim or something else he wanted (off a long wish list). In the end the cust was very happy and this one incident was the crux of how delightful a customer he was to me... Also, it ended up that he actually didn't use his kitchen - he just wanted "the look".
Now I know any of you guys who build houses have never had a customer who wanted way more than they could afford, and I know the arm chair quarterbacks here think that no mistake is excusable and the computer programs you write never have bugs in them, but I say the roofer eats the roof and the customer gets an allowance of 3k or whatever for her granite, or SS appliances, or upgraded trim package, or every room painted a different color or whatever item(s) were highest on her wish list that she couldn't afford and will still easily fit in the schedule....
For me - the customer always get what they want and pay for, but as a builder/realist it sometimes is my job to try and sell the customer on a different route and make him/her happy with it. These things happen and in building things don't always come out exactly as planned or as someone envisioned them.... It's the nature of the beast.... I
OTOH if the customer is that unhappy though she should get what she wants, but the reality of it is that the builder will probably loose a sub and she probably can't look forward to any "free-bees" coming up later in the project....
"customer satisfaction allowance"
Great way of putting it. I might have occasion to borrow that expression some day.
I always use "Customer Service Opportunity" when I'm talking to my guys.
Greg
I dont think I could bring myself to wasting a whole roof just for a color error. Black to Gray isnt that far away.
I'd probably expect a rather large credit from the installer though.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Me too, but we ain't her.If I were the GC on this, I would want a good read on whether she is truly unhappy or whether she is just barking to hear herself make noise and get a good refund out of it.If it is really non-negotiable, she gets what she wants, but if she can be bought, it is just a matter of negotiating the price that will make her happy enough to go away clucking to herself.
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Agreed. I would hope that if I were the GC though I would've made sure the shingles were the right color in the first place.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I've spent time on this one thinking scenarios - what would I do if I were the roofer...
what would I do if I were the GC
what would I do if I were the HO
what would I do if I were the friend posting this on BT
what would I do if I were all three of the last rolled into one
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
My CPU is a 286 tonight;)bad head and chest cold got me still awake
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I had this happen to a client a few years ago. I was not involved, she had found her own roofer and made her own bed, but I still felt bad for her. The color was not in the contract and the roofer wouldn't do anything for her. To this day she hates the roof, and bad-mouths (rightfully) the roofer to anyone who will listen. If the roofer in your case doesn't try to make good somehow, his reputation will be widely sullied. If it was me I would simply talk to the homeowner, asking her what would be an acceptable solution for her, offering money first. If she really wanted the right color, I would re-do it.What about just adding another layer? Why bother with a tear-off?Steve
"My first thought is have them replace it, but that opens the possibility for potential problems"
I think your "fears" are misfounded. There isn't a "possibility" of a potential problem....THERE IS A PROBLEM!
The solution is simple, obvious and easily executed....put the right color on!
Of course, if I were the installer, I'd ask if there might be a monetary settlement that would ease the situation but if she wants the roof that she chose, I'd happily deliver it. Business is business and we all make mistakes. When they are made, there is a huge marketing opportunity if the right "fix" is made.