Hello,
I am coming over from knots with probably an old question:
In the new shop I will start building soon, I will have a cement floor with radiant heat.
For obvious reasons I don’t want to be walking on cement all day.
I am thinking of having either oak flooring or plywood or MDF directly on top of the slab.
What do you suggest and how should I fasten it ?
Should I do something special with the heating system ?
Thanks in advance,
C.
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Replies
U R at cross purposes with yourself here.
Radiant heat in slab is great but you don't want the hardness of concrete underfoot killing your feet and back.
But placing plywood flooring in DIRECT contact will do little or nothing to soften things for you.
Conversely, elevation the subflooring onto sleepers as is common reduces your radiant efficiency a bit.
What I would do is to use the sleeper system and sacrifice a bit of efficiency. If you pour the slab with 2" EPS under it, there should not be much of anyplace for the heat to go but up anyways.
Another option would be dricore panels that have a waffled plastic back for drainage on baasement slab floors. You could use adhesive to hold it in place and then glue and staple/screw another 1/2" playwood over that system
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Thanks for the input Piffin,But you are met with ignorance here, what is EPS ?
Expensive ?C.
Edited 3/19/2007 2:47 pm ET by citrouille
EPS is insulated foam board which is hopefully under your concrete and pex tubing on top of the gravel. You don't want to heat the earth below if you can help it. The foam board forces the heat into the slab. Is the concrete floor already in? If so can you find out what type of install? With or Without foam?
If it is in and you have no foam board then adding anything to the floor diminishes your heat transfer into the room.
My guess is you will have a lot of saw dust to clean up so any rubber mats with holes( waffle mats) would allow heat to rise but collect a lot of saw dust. I would leave the concrete floor as is and get good shoes if there is no foam board.
If there is foam board a floating floor would serve you well.
Extruded PolyStyreneFoam insulation panels typically used under concrete slabs for heat retention.
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Piffin
I'm not sure I'm following you here, why cant you put plywood down on the concrete?
Wood floors are put down over concrete floors all the time and with radiant in floor heat, what am I missing here?
Also I'd rather walk on plywood then concrete, even if the plywood is attached directly to the crete. I know that I can feel the difference, especially at the end of the day. I know that it doesnt have the spring in it that you mention but plywood is still softer then crete.
Doug
U can put it down direct,but it will not have that flex that he is looking for to absorb his shock weight where feet hit, so they will hurt just as much as on bare crete.
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The dream shop I finally built was cement with radiant floor heat. I don't know of a better choice! You'll love it. The dust won't affect it or get blown all around the rest of the house.
Consider putting dust collection for your tablesaw in the floor. And power, too.
I think that the impression that concrete is hard on the feet is a false conclusion. Compared to the cushioning in the foot and in shoes, both wood and concrete are so much harder than both that the difference between wood and concrete is undetectable. You could put hundreds of pounds per square inch on either one and not deflect it 0.005 of an inch. I think, rather, the difference is in the texture. Most concrete is rough enough so the feet don't slide, and this jars the joints as you shuffle through the day, and increases the amount of scuffing of the foot inside the shoe. But, if concrete is given a good smooth finish, this difference disappears.
So I say go with the concrete and forget about the wood if comfort is what you want.
Wood does have an advantage that it is less likely to damage a dropped tool.
I agree with you about concrete vs wood. As an aside (and a bit OT), I used to run and one of the favorite debates among runners was asphalt vs. concrete. It was a popular reason for running in the street as opposed to the sidewalk. We would spend $100 or more on a pair of running shoes for cushioning technology and then debate the relative hardness of of asphalt and concrete. It never made sense to me and I could never tell the difference between the surfaces.
As another aside, why do we inflate our tires as a function of the weight of the vehicle, but our shoes never take into consideration the weight of the person standing or running in them?
-Don
Radiant heat way to go. Get good pair of work boots to wear to work/walk on concrete floor. Check any warehouse floor, its concrete.
Thanks all for the replies,The floor is not down yet, I am waiting for the white stuff to melt to start excavating.
I will definitely have a barrier under the slab, I saw some kind of silver bubble stuff designed for that purpose, is it any good ? What do you guys recommend ?
Just cement floor is not an option, I occasionally drop stuff like tools etc. not good for sharp edges.
I was considering 1/2 MDF, should I glue it down ? With what ?C.
I dont like wood floors because it gives places for cock roaches, mice, bugs, spiders and dust. It gives tools places to hide and with my heavy loads it would tear up in days. BUT. if you go to garage journal.com. they talk about rubber coating for concrete that make concrete soft on the feet.
I'm preparing the same project and have researched it a lot. A few points that seem to be reliable info:1. Use closed cell foam (blueboard / EPS) arounnd the EDGE of your slab as well as underneath. You will lose a lot of heat around the perimeter if you do not. There are several different ways to detail this, including bevelling the top edge of the perimeter insulation so you can bring the slab right up over the top without an exposed, vulnerable foam edge. Or you can put a baseboard over the exposed edge. Or insulate the outside of the frost wall, if you are willing to stucco it (otherwise UV exposure will ruin it).2. Over and over, I've read to avoid the bubble-type slab insulation. Use closed cell foam only (4x8 blue board)As for the wood/concrete dillemma, I went through that too and came down in favor of concrete. Cheaper, stronger, more care free. For around your workbench area, maybe use rubber mats or some such (a product called "elephant bark" at rubbercal.com looks good to me).
The bubble wrap is a fraud and the advertiser is in trouble with the law. Rigid foam is the correct material. Two inches is typical underneath. For the perimeter you can use less.
The Astrofoil is pretty much worthless for that application except as a moisture barrier.rflective barrier type insulations make their claims based on testing with a 1" dry air space surronding them. You will have a hard time levitating the slab that much so your actual Rvalue will be only about R-2.2" of EPS foam will give you more like R-10 real.MDF is not a water resistant material and is slick to walk on so I would not choose it for a floor in direct contact with concrete, and again - you wil gain nothing in dampening the solidity under foot by placing it in direct contact with the crete. You NEED to separate somehow in order to gain the springyness for foot comfort. Use sleepers and 3/4" Advantec
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cirrouille
It depends on where you are at. Here in Minnesota I will be imbedding white oak planks right into the concrete before it dries. White oak is decay resistant and in order to give the white oak a chance to hold I will screw in a fair number of stainless steel screws in a slayed pattern. on the back side. It's important to use stainless steel since oak has tannic acids in it that will cause regular screws to rust and cause wood rot.. The idea is that the concrete will swell around the heads of the screws and do a decent job of retention.
In the south with termits I wouldn't attempt to do this, but I want to give dropped tools a chance plus I just like the look and feel of wood underfoot.