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Dunno about SmartSide, but 20-odd years ago I did this house in Masonite Woodsman siding, and, if I had to do it over again and could get the exact same product, I'd use the exact same product. It still looks as good as it did new, and there has been absolutely zero deterioration anywhere. And it was a heckuva lot easier to install than fiber-cement.
Yeah, we have done a few houses with it, and I've been favorably impressed. Quite a bit faster than FC since it is lighter and comes in 16' lengths vs. 12'. Also can cut it with regular saws and it isn't prone to breaking like fiber cement. Can't really say much about the longevity, but IMO, it seems like it will be fine.
Someone might well post here about it is just beaver barf, etc. and how water will destroy it. Some truth to that, but have you ever seen what happens to fiber cement when it gets wet?
[Someone might well post here about it is just beaver barf, etc. and how water will destroy it. Some truth to that, but have you ever seen what happens to fiber cement when it gets wet?]--No. Does it absorb water? If so, what happens when it freezes?
A builder here who's used Smartside told me me dropped a small lap siding cutoff piece into a bucket of water and left it for 3 weeks with no sign of deterioration and only slight swelling.
I like the fact that they make a full complement of trim, fascia, soffit and 4 x 8 panels of the same stuff.
And, it seems to me that most siding is only as good as its ability to hold paint--even cedar, redwood, etc. are going suffer when the paint peels. OTOH, solid wood can be scraped and repainted, but it's initial cost is out of my reach. If I can believe the sales hype, 2 coats of quality, 100% acrylic latex paint over the primed Smartside should last for 20 yrs. I 'spose it'll take 20 yrs to know.
Q: What did you use to nail it? Nail gun? I see the maker says it's best not to drive nails below the surface, so I'm wondering if I need to hand nail it, or is there a suitable nail gun that will consistently leave the heads flush or slightly proud, but tight to the face?
Yeah, if fiber cement gets wet, it is prone to all the problems masonite siding had--paint peeling, turning to mush, etc. Even one wetting will cause efflorescence which is a bear to get rid of. I think if it is frozen wet it's all over. You might gather that I'm not riding on the Fiber Cement bandwagon.
We get our Smartside pre-painted (same paint and color choice as we got our fc.), We blind nail it. It doesn't seem to have as many problems of flapping out like blind nailed hardi does. (We rehab old houses so flat walls are a rarity). It really goes on like Hardi. Gap the joints 1/8" and caulk with color matched caulk.
We use a Hitachi siding nailer, though you could also use a roofing nailer and hand bang the face nails (mostly in the trim, corners, and top course). If I were to face nail it, I still might use my coil nailer but I'd leave the nails proud and finish them by hand. I think you'd really want to be careful about over driving nails.
Would blind nailing be OK for the 8" stuff? That would leave about 6 or 6-1/2" flapping. I want to use the 3/8-thick lap siding, not the 7/16.
Yeah, 8" is what we are
Yeah, 8" is what we are using. Nail as low as you can and still have the piece above cover the nail. That will limit flapping.
> Yeah, if fiber cement gets
> Yeah, if fiber cement gets wet, it is prone to all the problems masonite siding had--paint peeling, turning to mush, etc. <
I'm surprised to see you saying this (hmmm, did I just imply that I can see you talking??). At any rate, I starting building a workshop more than a few years ago (still working on it, sometimes). When I was planning it, I took a scrap piece of the primed Hardi lap siding & threw it about half in / half out of a bucket of water. That set out in the yard for at least 3 yrs, maybe 5, through many freeze, thaw cycles, hot summers, etc. Bucket always was at least 2/3 full of water.
When I finally threw it away, it looked like the wet section of it might have swollen slightly, but a miniscule amount. It would have taken a caliper or mic to measure that. I tested for hardness with my fingernail & knife. No noticeable difference between the section that had always been wet & the one that had always been dry.
You could see that some moisture had wicked up higher in the scrap than the level of water, but I don't remember what that distance was. Again, not significantly.
Just wondering why your, and others', experiences with it contradict what I saw.
Ed
For that matter, after we resided our house with Masonite I was picking up cutoff pieces laying on the ground (in the mud) behind the bushes for 2-3 years. They were visibly swollen after 2 years, but not badly. The "Masonite" that turned to mush mostly wasn't Masonite but rather other brands, though Masonite did shoot themselves in the foot late in the game when they started cutting quality to compete.
In my opinion good quality composites that are properly painted should only need repainting when the paint eventually erodes (as all paint does after 10-20 years). And then they'll ONLY need painting, not scraping, etc.
> A builder here who's used Smartside told me me dropped a small lap siding cutoff piece into a bucket of water and left it for 3 > weeks with no sign of deterioration and only slight swelling.
We had the same experience. We recently started using LP SmartSide for the walls and the roofing (unless the customer requests asphalt tile) on our children's playhouses. It saves us time and money because it doesn't require priming and we don't have to worry about knots or warping.
And just like the builder you spoke of, we took a piece and dropped in a bucket for a couple of weeks. It was barely affected.
The job is done now, and I'm very satisfied at this point, but time will tell.
I took the time and effort to follow the installation instructions exactly, which included gapping the lap siding 3/16" where it meets the trim and at butt joints. Caulked with DAP Dynaflex 230, and brushed/rolled 2 coats of SW Duration. Did careful flashing details where needed.
Took me 4 months of evening and weekend work, but that was with stripping off all the old stuff, including fascia and soffit.
I could handle 16' lengths by myself, which was a big help since I worked alone.
Where did the summer go?
lp smart siding
If you want the stuff to last, then back prime the areas most likely to have water contact. Like the bottom of the siding, roof rake cuts, where first floor and second floor meet ect... Time consuming yes but it will not allow mositure to penetrate the siding material at key locations where you find most wood rot problems. Sometimes in even 5 yrs.
No kidding............
I've gotten to hate the look in the homowners eyes when I price out a repair of poor installation techniques.
I swear, it looks like it's my fault. Repair after the fact takes way longer than to do it right the first time................
I think there's some wives tale regarding that.
The company I work for has probably 20 to 30 houses out there sided with prepainted fiber cement lap siding. So I speak from experience.
I've seen a few water related problems with Fiber Cement (to be fair to James Hardie, it was Certainteed brand fiber cement.).
One one house, the owners added landscape rock around the foundation, and the paint on the bottom two courses peeled because rain was splashing up on it. Factory rep said that grade was too close and that therefore the warranty had been voided. Gee, how is that different than Masonite?
Once we sided a garage with siding left over from another job. Only trouble was, the pile had gotten wet. The whole garage was covered with efflorescence when we were done. This was pre-painted siding. We had to prime it and paint it to stop the efflorescence. YOU CAN'T let the pile get wet!
Had a friend who added a layer of exterior foam and then hung 4 x 8 sheets of siding. It cupped badly. Can't put it straight on top of foam.
We have had pieces fall off. They probably were sloppily nailed in the first place, and seasonal movement finally pushed it over the edge. You must be very careful with nail placement!
I've also seen it break around window cutouts.
Had another job where ONE piece somehow got wet, so when it was done, there was one piece of siding on the house with efflorescence. There is no good way to take ONE piece off, since the replacement would have to be face nailed, and those face nails would then have to be painted.
True, every single one of those problems were installation problems. Forgiving it isn't.
I just did about 28 Sq. of the LP Smartboard for the first time this past week. I just got it primed, as it was less money and I have time to tackle the paint job. It looks as if it will require a great deal of caulk, which I've found you can get a 5-gallon bucket of it at Sherwin-Williams for about $100 and they can tint it to colors. As far as nailing goes, i just used a battery / gas cartridge powered Paslode nail gun. It has a setting on the nail head depth so it doesn't countersink. It went up super easy an seems to be great so far!
Smart Side, Smart Trim
I have not used LP Smart Side. Is that the prodct that is made of OSB? A builder building adjecent to me a few years back was using it, but, to tell you the truth I was afraid of it... I'm thinking they may have stopped making that product for favor of something else using the same name? What is the SmartSide product you are talking about? What does it look like (on the back) and what is it made of? Wood chops? Hardboard like material? What?
Anyway, I just had ~3000 LF of LP Smart Trim installed. It is a hardboard like material and has a strong warranty - I think it is 50 years. The material is very similar to Miratec only the warranty is better. Smart Trim seems harder than Miratec and maybe a little durable - ever noticed how a few boards of your miritec shipment always ends up getting "skinned" due to handeling. Haven't noticed that with Smart Trim. It comes in the reversable smooth one side and wood grain the other, and one small detail I notice is tha the corners on the smooth side are very crisp - almost, but not quite sharp. I asked the siding installers how they felt about it and they said it was fine. OH - and did I mention it is a little CHEAPER than Miratec...
As a side note I used the Smart Trim with Nichicha (sp?) fiber cement siding. Second time for that product, and again, it is a little cheaper than the "name brand" stuff but seems just as good.
Smart Side
Smart siding is very popular around here in both lap and "Smart Panel" sheet siding.
Personally I love the stuff because it makes me a lot of money, each year we do a handful of projects repairing or replacing it. The sheet goods are the worst but I'd attribute most of the problems to poor installation details. The smart lap seems to hold up better but still isn't a great product.
From a material cost perspective it's a toss up between smart lap and cement board lap, labor is more for cement board.
Our climent may be harsher than some of the other posters but maybe not, I would recommend using cement board and passing on the "Smart Lap".
If it's sheet siding I like it better than cement board because cement board does not offer any sort of edge overlap on the vertical seams. I still don't like the stuff but it's better than the cement board because of the overlap. If you're going for a Tudor look then the cement board vertical seams are less of an issue. If you install the sheets make sure you flash it properly and don't put a band board over the seam unless it's flashed in properly. We always back prime the sheets to try to seal it against moisture.
SmartSide
Our home was built in '95, sided with LP. We have had no problems with it because it was installed and painted properly. I think we would have had failure problems by now. I'd use it again, plus I like the 16' lengths. Use a nail gun with s/s nails and set the gun so the fastners don't break the outer surface.
HV
Stay away from LP
I'm in the building industry 8 years, down here on the OBX all houses with SMARTSIDE LP have or soon will have to replace the siding. Especialy, the first 3 feet from the botom. There was a class lawsuite against the company. The product is nice to work with but that's all. Only for very dry climate. If you will do a litle mistake during installation it will in two years be ready for replacement. This product ... coated OSB for siding ??!! No thanks.
I would expect that few varieties of siding hold up well on the Outer Banks, between wind, rain, salt, and high humidity.
I'm also wondering what sort of paint was used.
As I've mentioned before, I found that with the old hardboard siding painting was critical. Much of the composite siding installed in the early 70s was painted with Olympic Overcoat, a flat paint apparently chosen by builders because it went on easily and covered well in one coat (and, of course, it was relatively inexpensive). But flat paint generally, and Overcoat in particular, is not a very good moisture barrier, and this is one reason why hardboard siding developed a bad rep -- older stuff (from the 50s and 60s), properly painted, held up well, but the newer stuff from the 70s (admittedly more cheaply constructed) rapidly went punk (except for the occasional house painted with a better quality paint).
"There was a class lawsuite
"There was a class lawsuite against the company."
Aren't you thinking about LP "Innerseal" siding? That was LP's earlier incarnation of OSB siding back in the 1990s; we had it on our house (built 1994), and I just finished a total strip-off and replacement with prepainted Hardiplank.
LP used improper glue to bind the Innerseal stuff; it was definitely prone to absorption of water, swelling, and rot. I haven't heard the same about Smartside (supposedly they used the correct binder this time around; I still wouldn't use it until it has a long successful track record, though.)
Nice we are all in agreement here (NOT)!
Hard to say from all the potentially historic anecdotal information which is better.
I am in a very wet climate here, Vancouver, any suggestions?
Thanks
John
I put it on a shed and a
I put panels of it on a shed and a generator enclosure this year. It seems OK.
If you snap a piece in two, it seems to break apart fairly easily. I don't know if that means anything, but for all their talk of strength and toughness I wasn't impressed. I bought a few sheets that were damaged, apparently the top sheets off a bunk, which were broken by the pressure from strapping.
They are preprimed, but the primer sometimes sticks to the other sheets when they are in the bunk. This can cause the coating to pull off with the primer, leaving a difficult to paint area, as it seems to be quite obvious due to the texture.
The lips on the sides of the sheet are very thin, making them easy to damage, but also making a nice seal, so just be careful. I caulked the laps, don't know if that is recommended.
I think priming all cuts is required, which again makes me think their bragging about the resin is exaggerated.
Nail heads are also not supposed to break through the surface, makes me wonder why they say that. I suspect it would absorb water and fail, but it could be that the nails wouldn't hold as well. Anyway, this makes the nails pretty obvious. Another thing is this stuff is hard, and hand nailing can be a pain.
The product seems made to compare with T-111. It's a low budget siding. It wouldn't be my first choice on an upscale home. I like it better than vinyl, but they are made for different markets. Also the finish on the smartside is an exagerated rustic fake cedar that I like, but it's probably not for everyone.
On the plus side, it looks good, and it's lighter and easier to work with than Hardi panels. It is supposed to have additives that prevent rot and insects from destroying it. I think it will hold paint very well over time. So if it seems like a good fit for the application, I'd give it a try.
Re priming cuts, usually cuts are where the siding butts against trim or such (running joints tend to be factory ends), and you want the cut ends primed anyway so the caulk will stick.
Well, yes you want to prime for those reasons, but I get the impression that if you don't, the smartside will absorb water and fail. They stress priming all cuts, and all edges are preprimed from the factory.
Most caulk sticks like the dickens and will hold to unprimed materials, including anything you don't want it to as well as everything you want it to, so I am not sure that is the reason they stress priming all cuts.
I suspect, more than anything, they're trying to encourage a "belt and suspenders" approach, at least in part as CYA.
And I would never expect caulk to stick long-term to any wood-like surface that had not been primed first. It may stick initially but won't hold for 10-20 years.
All:
My OP on this was over a year and half ago; I did use Smartside lap siding, trim, soffit and fascia, and I can report on my short-term impressions.
I took the time to fuss over all the details of flashing, caulking, sealing end cuts, spacing joints for caulking, and then brushed and rolled 2 coats of SW Duration. The lap siding (8" with 6" to weather) is all blind-nailed. So far, so good, but a year and half is not much time.
A little, non-scientific test I did was to drop a short, unsealed, unpainted offcut of the lap siding into a bucket of water, where it stayed for over a month. It did swell a little, but did not delaminate even one flake of the substrate.
I snooped around to look at some other jobs being done with Smartside, and not one of them was being done according to the mfr instructions.
anecdotal tests, etc.
"A little, non-scientific test I did was to drop a short, unsealed, unpainted offcut of the lap siding into a bucket of water, where it stayed for over a month. It did swell a little, but did not delaminate even one flake of the substrate."
What I discovered when stripping off the LP Innerseal siding from my house was that there is no rhyme or reason. Some parts of the siding were so rotten they had turned to powder, while others looked almost good as new--except when examining the drip edge it was apparent that some very early delamination was occuring. I also tried placing some cutoffs in a bucket of water and noticed no change, except I think that a month is insufficient time; try placing some cutoffs in water for a year and see what happens. I did that with Hardiplank and also Japanese concrete-form plywood (used for furring strips for the rainscreen wall), and noticed no change. In fact, the plywood is still in the bucket, after 18 months, and shows no swelling or delamination.
(the photp shows one section of the LP Innerside siding where it has delaminated and is rotting; this was on the west side, where much damage occurred.)
Honestly, one of the best tests is to take a few short cutoffs and drop them behind the bushes around your house, leaving them there for a year or so. (Conveniently, this tends to happen without planning it in many cases.) If, after a year, the stuff is only slightly swollen and hasn't gone punk then it's good.
LP Smartside concerns
I am having my 1910 house and garage resided. I am removing steel and cedar. Nothing wrong with them, just ugly steel with some hail dents and both structures need to match. We are keeping the original cedar siding under the lp smartside on the house as a sound barrier as I am next to a high traffic area.
I went to consumer reports and found quite a few complaints about this product and their lack of realistic response, and read about the class action suit. I noticed all the complaints came from coastal locations. I am in the midwest where we get a little bit of everything and not too much of anything constantly wet, so I would suspect those problems are specific to those areas. I am concerned about the freeze and thaw season but the siding will be 3 feet off the ground because of my foundation.
It sounds like they may have reformulated their product since this suit or just before. I will take all the words of a piece in a bucket of water for face value. I just don't want this stuff turning to crap. It is outragous to reside $$$.
I was avoiding steel because of hail and I can't really paint it often to cover graffiti. After reading all these comments I still have no answer.
Of course it looks nice and sounds easy for the installer, but for how long?
There is no reason that someone couldn't make good quality wood composite siding. After all, it's been done before -- the Masonite brand siding we have is 100% sound after 20-odd years. The problem is getting someone to do it, and then having the confidence that they in fact did (and will continue to do so with future products).
It would be nice if there were some sort of reasonably trusted (and trustworthy) testing organization that could certify this sort fo stuff, but I don't know of such an organization. But perhaps the manufacturer could pay several different testing organizations (or perhaps universities) to test the product.
I would like to believe that the current SmartSide product is good, but none of us have any way of telling that.
(I can tell you that our Masonite siding was indeed easy to install. The 16-foot sticks were nice for minimizing joints, and the stuff was not at all fragile while installing -- never had to worry about a stick breaking under its own weight. The biggest problem we had with installation was that the stuff was so hard we had to pre-drill the nail holes.)
Water and Siding/Trim
Folks, as a guy who sees the long term effects of moisture on projects sided with cedar, SmartSide, fiber cement and other products, I can authoritatively tell you that properly caulking, flashing, and touching up cut ends and oversunk nails is MORE IMPORTANT than which substrate you choose. All of these products fulfill their promise when a good installer/finisher follows all installation instructions to a "T". Never scrimp on fasteners, caulk or coatings!
When a do-it-yourselfer or the cheapest bid puts up a paintable and porous product, you will have problems, and you will probably blame the product. You should probably be assessing the installation.
LP and Miratec have both made changes to their products over the years, but so have Hardie and other FC mfrs. Modifications to composition and shape and installation specs have made each of these options a much better choice than they would have been originally.
Of course, if you spec products that are impervious to moisture (PVC), they won't get wet but even PVC products have very specific installation details which are difficult to follow if you throw the instructions in the trash. Thermal expansion/contraction and gluing and coating are all a different game with PVC.
If my customer can afford it, I'd spec real, factory coated CVG Cedar. You get a 100+ year product and you don't need paperwork to tell you so. When choosing other options, consider the weakness of each product and find an installer that is trained and certified to put it on your house. You can actually have a great experience with all of these.
Solid color finishes on any of them might carry 15 or 25 warranties, but consider that fade and caulk, realistically, may both require a 10 or 15-year cycle of maintenance. Some coatings and colors will be more or less maintenance, but none will be "no maintenance".
When a do-it-yourselfer or the cheapest bid puts up a paintable and porous product, you will have problems
I beg to differ. This DIYer resided our house with Masonite Woodsman siding more than 20 years ago and you still cannot find a single spot on the house where siding has deteriorated. (But I suppose that technically Masonite Woodsman, a tempered hardboard product, is not "porous".)
"When a do-it-yourselfer or
"When a do-it-yourselfer or the cheapest bid . . ."
-> I beg to differ.
Took the words from my mouth. While looking around on Youtube I've found a number of videos of professionals installing siding using techniques that couldn't have been in agreement with the mfgrs' "best practices." As a DIYer myself, I think I did at least as good a job on my siding as many pros would've done, and part of the reason was simply because I read and follow the manufacturers' instructions--and because I had the time to work slowly/deliberately. My details might not be as pretty as those done by a pro, but I have confidence in the functionality. It was a pro who screwed up our original siding/trim.
I think it's a little immature the back and forth competition.
Some of us have legitimate questions and instead of honest answer we get a 'mini-war' of Hardie versus LP? I am residing my 2300 sqft home with LP siding. I did over 1 month of research on the products and installers, went to dozens of homes to inspect the installers work and the product and did due diligence on selecting the company I will be using by verifying BBB status, license & insurance, certifications for their employees (company must use their own employees and not sub-contract) as well as reviews and research any warranty claims.
In the end I selected a company that works with both Hardie and LP siding. We will using the LP Smartside Lap product. It has been around since the mid 1990's has has not had a single warranty claim against it. The old product, LP InnerSeal was made in the 1980's. I certainly would not remove a product because it's earlier versions had issues. That would remove all siding products as almost all companies, including Hardie have had issues as well as class action lawsuits against them. Heck, for that matter, we would not all be using Microsoft windows or wearing Nike tennis shoes, etc.
Why did I pick LP siding instead of Hardie? I like the look better. I like that it is a real wood product and not cement. I like that it will not crack when it is banged against. I like that I can put a nail in the product if needed without damaging it. I like that it is so much lighter than the cement product. I live in earthquake country and a product that can take the stresses of a quake without cracking is critical. Because it's lighter it also puts less of a load on my house which can only be good.
I will be following the installation very closely. I trust that these installers will do it right as they warranty their workmanship for 15 years. I am confident that this product will last 40-60 years with minimal maintenance. I did my research. What I find truly shocking is that so many of you did not and publish your reservations about the product when you are actually talking about a product that has not been sold in over 15 years.
still like the smart side?
hello,
i read your post from 2012 regarding the smartside siding which you used on your house. i am wondering if you are still happy with the product? i am considering it for some projects on my property.
thank you,
toni
LP Smartside Panel siding and exterior foam
I just read the installation instruction for the LP Smartside Panel siding and I have a question regarging the section on installing over rigid foam insulation.
The instructions say to build a frame made out of 2 x 4 straping in the event 1.5 inch foam is being used.
I am using 1.5 inch foam and I can't figure out why the company requires such a large frame work.
Has anyone got an idea why they require such thick straping?
Does the fact that I am located in the north east (Ontario canada) have anything to do with it?
Thanks for any help here.
Cheers,
Forest
Hey Forest, They are recommending 2x4" strapping applied on the flat on top of the existing sheathing. This furs out your exterior walls 1 1/2". Then you infill with the 1 1/2" foam and you have a flat plane for the sheet siding. If you applied the foam first to the sheathing you could install the Smartside right over the foam with long screws or apply strapping over the foam then the Smartside. The recommendation doesn't relate to your climate.
LP Smartside Trim
We used it in 2014 on a new home and have issues already. In my opinion, use Hardie trim.
I needed to save money so I purchased 30+ sheets of what I thought was LP Smartside siding to put on my house. I believe it to be Smartside soffit. Only because of a recent Home Depot screenshot added to the sellers later Facebook marketplace ad.
Can I put this on the outside of my house? I know the LP site says not for that use, but because I got it on the marketplace I have no warranty anyway?
Thanks
@chadsgotmilk- old thread but I’ll answer anyway. Smart side soffit can be used for siding. It’s the same material . However there is no t and g so you would have to caulk the seams where it butts together, that’s why it’s not for siding use. Plus it wouldn’t look very good to have a bunch of 4 x 8 panels with no grooves like t111 on your house. As far as durability imo lp is the Cadillac of siding. I used lp lap on my home I built 5 years ago. We built my dads house in 1996 with lp lap. No issues at all ever. When we built my house we had a few scraps laying in yard during winter to step on to avoid the mud. Those pieces layer in the rain , mud and snow for months . No swelling etc… I’m sure there can be a bad batch every now and then like all products. In my experience this stuff is damn near bullet proof. Also I always cut my laps tight to the corners . Lp says to leave gaps for expansion. We’re in the humid mid west and we’ve never had problems by fitting the siding right into corners . Vinyl is junk and hardy is decent but lp will outlast hardy and it’s hella lot easier to work with .