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Any dishwasher repairmen???

ytek | Posted in General Discussion on January 28, 2007 02:05am

My daugher just bought a GE dishwasher, model PDW9980NSS.  This is not a cheap dishwasher.  In fact, it’s probably their top of the line.  I did the installation.  Problem is, it just doesn’t get dishes clean.  It won’t even get dried chocolate milk out of a cup.  It also leaves food residue on the interior.  She has had the GE technician out three times, and they all say something different, ranging from:  the water isn’t hot enough (it is), the water is too hard (it isn’t), the water supply line is too small.

They want us to replace the water supply line with a larger line, and it that doesn’t work, they will replace the whole unit (finally!!!).  The feed line is standard 1/2 inch, and the shutoff is 1/2 inch ball valve.  We did use one of those stainless flexible lines to connect to the dishwasher, since it was just too tight to get under the unit to plumb it solid.  My big question is, doesn’t all dishwashers have a float valve to control the amount of water that enters the machine??  She was told that they only have a timer to time the fillup water.  Wouldn’t that mean a wide range of water levels, since water supplies can run from 20 psi to over 80 psi??

 

I hate to go to the trouble of replacing the connection water line with a solid pipe, only to have to cut the line so they can replace the unit, if it comes to that.  Any help, please!

 

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Replies

  1. maverick | Jan 28, 2007 02:30am | #1

    bump

    1. dovetail97128 | Jan 28, 2007 05:56am | #14

      I am with the plugged filter posters. Had it happen several times to mine after a dip tube went out in my hot watwer heater.
      On mine the filter was at the solenoid, dish washer end of your inlet line,maybe an elbow just before it.
      Solenoid has 2-4 wires going to it, usuallly push on connectors.

  2. ward121 | Jan 28, 2007 02:47am | #2

    Hey Ytek,

     I am doing the same thing with my Maytag.  Hear is what I have learned.

    1. The fill and empty are timed. The fill has a high (float) switch but not a low. If you don,t have enough water it. It will start anyway.   I noticed that mine still trys to drain even after the water is gone. Not enough water in it for the timer.

    2. I also have 1/2 inch supply....but all the way from the water heater. I suspect not enough volume via the 1/2...also the machine requires at least 2 gallons per minute.  make sure you are getting that.

    try this site...alot of great info

    http://applianceguru.com/

     

    Ward

     

     

    1. User avater
      McDesign | Feb 11, 2007 07:06am | #18

      I wanted to thank you for the DW operation description.  It got me off my butt, and I was able to determine that my dishwasher didn't fill well because it was timed, not the float switch as I thought - it's just a safety.

      Screen and fill valve was full 'o crud; oredered one from Sears, just put it in in about 10 minutes - lots of water level now!

      DW and DW are happy -

      Thanks again.

      Forrest

      1. dovetail97128 | Feb 11, 2007 09:18am | #19

        Always nice when things work out from free advice. !!!

        1. ScottMatson | Feb 11, 2007 05:07pm | #20

          I didn't see anything in the thread about water temperature, which can be very important for getting crud off plates etc. I think mine requires 140 degree water entering the unit but I'm going off recent memory. you could crank up your water heater and see if that helps any. Another idea would be to take a temp reading in mid-cycle and see how hot the unit is heating the water.Just more thoughts in the process of elimination. It has been my wife's observation that dishwashers don't clean very well anymore. You practically have to clean the dishes in the sink first and just sanitize them in the dw. I tend to agree, but we don't have an $800 Bosch either.

          1. ytek | Feb 11, 2007 06:22pm | #21

            Just an update on the dishwasher problem.... (it still isn't fixed!)

            I'm not close to my daughter's house to do any of the testing, so I'm having her do what she can and let me know the results.  After some experimentation, the water level is definitly too low.  We're still not sure that is the total problem, but at least we know that's something that has to be fixed before we can move further. 

            She tried adding water to bring the level up to normal, but only saw a small improvement.  I'm not sure if she added water to all cycle fill-up's though.

            What bothers me it that the GE service guy wants us to change out the flex connector line to a solid 1/2 inch line to see if that's the problem.  If anyone has looked under these new units you know there is no room under there to do any sort of plumbing with the unit installed.  And the unit cannot be removed/installed with sollid piping all the way to the inlet.  Plus, after all this extra labor they insist on, and when it doesn't work, they will have to cut the plumbing to remove the unit to replace it.  I really don't have much confidence in replacing the flex pipe with solid pipe.

            Anyone know if there is a larger diameter flex line available?  How about the water lines used for clothes washers??

          2. bigal4102 | Feb 11, 2007 07:12pm | #22

            It's been 12 years, so my memory may be slightly foggy, but I believe I plumbed my DW with soft copper tubing.One has to be careful not to kink it, but it is flexible, be sure and watch the connections for a couple cycles, those compression fittings can leak if you put to much stress on them flexing the line around.

          3. User avater
            MarkH | Feb 11, 2007 07:14pm | #23

            I'd eyeball the flex to see if it's kinked, if that has not been ruled out.

          4. ytek | Feb 12, 2007 02:10am | #24

            No kinks.  Checked that very carefully.  In fact, the GE service guy checked that also.  I still have a hard time believing the inside diameter of the flex pipe is too small for typical dishwashers.

          5. User avater
            MarkH | Feb 12, 2007 02:51am | #25

            I actually find that rather unbelievable too.  Is there a chance that a shutoff valve is not fully open?

          6. ytek | Feb 12, 2007 04:30am | #26

            Checked shut off valve.  Fully open.

            I'm leaning toward the machine having something wrong and the GE service guy just can't seem to find it.  But what do I know???

          7. dovetail97128 | Feb 12, 2007 04:39am | #27

            I haven't read this whole thread, but have you tried turning off the supply valve, disconnecting the water supply at the DW and then turning on the supply to check for good flow? Sediment can get caught up in the shut off valve as well as in the DW inlet filter..

            Edited 2/11/2007 8:40 pm ET by dovetail97128

          8. User avater
            BillHartmann | Feb 12, 2007 04:39am | #28

            I don't remember if this has been mention are not. But if it is feed by a saddel valve, even if the hole was drilled for it, the center stem has a steel neddle with a hole in it. That likes to get plugged up..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          9. barmil | Feb 13, 2007 04:28am | #29

            This has nothing to do with the problem at hand, but it's been solved, and I read a few references to other DW brands, and it sounded like some foreign brands were very popular. Of course, we don't build good appliances in the US, do we? I get a kick out of LG, a maker of very expensive appliances. It's really the Korean company formerly known as Goldstar, considered at one time well inferior to the Japanese Sony, Panasonic. etc. I first saw them as the VCRs on buses in Korea about twenty-five years ago. If they had kept the name, they'd probably be nowhere in the US, but LG does sound intriguing, and they have a neat logo. Great PR. I think that a lot of us are finding that these so-called superior products from New Zealand, Australia, Europe, etc. are too expensive and very unreliable, costing a fortune to repair. My mother's Fisher & Paykel washer, a dubious gift from my younger sister, just stopped the spin cycle. What will that cost to repair? She hasn't the money. I could buy a few Whirlpools for the price of one of these exotics and get fifteen uneventful years out of each.

          10. Thaumaturge | Feb 13, 2007 05:06am | #30

            First off, the only thing I needed to hear was GE.

            I have had a kitchen full of GE appliances and they are without a doubt the least reliable, worst designed appliances on the market today.  That being said, I would lobby hard for the GE tech in this case to just pull the unit and replace it.  The water line suggestion is just silly.

            As for Fisher Paykel... I love my washer.  No belts, no hinky controllers or substandard parts.  Just a high quality direct drive motor and a pump.  Uses less water and works great.

            As always, there are stories of junk products for every manufacturer, but I will never buy a GE product again.

            PS - http://www.applianceguru.com is THE place to go for info on this area of expertise.  I was able to get my very expensive GE oven working again at no cost thanks to this site.  It saved me a good $200 which I will put toward a new oven from another manufacturer very soon.

            Edited 2/12/2007 9:07 pm ET by Thaumaturge

          11. barmil | Feb 13, 2007 06:15am | #31

            How long have you had your FK? There's no doubt that they work great when they work. But their reliability isn't impressive. And how much to repair, since it's a bit esoteric? Whatever you want.

          12. User avater
            MarkH | Feb 13, 2007 02:40pm | #32

            GE/Hotpoint washers and dryers are or were real tough machines.  I got rid of my old one that still worked after 30 years.  Had a new clutch and fill valve over the years.  Got a free nearly new set of whirlpools, not as impressed.

          13. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 13, 2007 02:44pm | #33

            try the Bosch DW'ers....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

          14. Thaumaturge | Feb 13, 2007 10:02pm | #34

            I've had the Fisher Paykel Washer a couple years now.  Paid around $600... quite a bit less than the 'domestic' front loaders we initially considered and comparable to a high-end top-loader.

            The main reason we went for it was that we liked the lack of moving parts to service and its low water consumption.  All machines break down at some point, but the FP design reduces the points of failure.  I can't comment on service costs having had no issues.  The online hits for problems with our model are virtually non-existent.

            The reputation of the brand for service was pretty high when I did my research.  (I did find lots of issues with their drawer-dishwashers though)  Obviously time will tell.

            OH, BTW, the FP is hardly an exotic brand and is very common in Australia and New Zealand.  I only consider brands exotic that charge 5x the price for the same functionality like Thermador, Sub-Zero, etc.  $10k for a kitchen appliance!  No thanks.

            As you said, to each his own.

          15. sully13 | Feb 13, 2007 10:57pm | #36

            Just butting into the conversation here to echo what Thaumaturge said.

            Every time I fail to talk a client out of installing GE appliances, I get bit in the a**.  If it doesn't work properly they think I did not hook it up correctly.  GE was a good brand years ago,but they have been left in the dust when compared to other brands.

            Almost to the point of refusing to install them.

            We sell brands that we have actually had success with: FP, Dacor, Bosch, JennAir, KitchenAid, etc.

            sully

  3. Mooney | Jan 28, 2007 02:53am | #3

    Well Ive got 15 houses including the one I live in and 12 of those have dishwashers I installed . None of them are plumbed bigger than 1/2 inch because thats as big as their inlet . Ive got some on 3/8ths lines .

    This is ridiculas because the sink is only plumbed with 1/2 inch.

    We take 3/4s to the hot water heater and branch off from there . There might be a 3/4 trunk line but each bath , kitchen is sized down to 1/2 stub in the wall. In all my houses , I couldnt do any bigger than 1/2 because it isnt available .

    Must be somthing else .

    How old is the house and is it plumbed in copper or what ?

    What does the water pressure read or have you read it ?

    Theres  a filter on the inlet , check it .

    Tim

     

    1. ytek | Jan 28, 2007 03:29am | #4

      Mooney, the house is plumbed in CPVC and has 1/2 inch line running to dishwasher.  This line branches off a 3/4 inch line that is shared by the kitchen sink.  The house in on a well, and the pressure regulator is set to 30-50 psi.  There is plenty of pressure.

      This is the second dishwasher in this location.  The first was a Kitchenaid, and has been there for about 15 years.  It worked perfectly!  Never a problem.

      The GE techs are not complaining about the 1/2 inch supply line.  They don't like the flexible stainless coupling line.  This flex line is about a foot long & connects the dishwasher to the shutoff valve.  The dishwasher is so tight underneath, it would be almost impossible to plumb it solid.

      The dishwasher is brand new.  Could there be a problem with the input filter??  Also, where is that filter?  Is it a screen on the input line??  I can't seem to get any type of technical information from GE about this product.  They seem to want to keep it a secret.

      The GE tech said that there are larger diameter flex lines that would work.  I've never seen any.  Does anyone know if there really is such a thing??

      1. Mooney | Jan 28, 2007 03:58am | #5

        Some have an inlet screen in the intake while others have a little contraption.

        Doesnt matter that its new . The inlet gets clogged from an old line

        Do ou have irony water ?

        I would take it out and inspect everything plus measure the pressure .

        1/2 inch is plenty if its not stopped up.

        After that they could have it back.

        Tim  

  4. WhistlerWzrd01 | Jan 28, 2007 04:03am | #6

    Start it up empty, let it fill, when the filling stops, open the door and see how much water is inside. If there is enough water, post again.
    WW

    1. ytek | Jan 28, 2007 04:08am | #7

      How can I tell if there is enough water??

      I thought all dishwashers had a float valve to control the amount of water, thus regulating the amount of water, regardless of water pressure, etc.  If there is no float valve to regulate the water level, wouldn't there be significant differences between 20psi and 80 psi water supplies?

       

      1. joeh | Jan 28, 2007 04:43am | #8

        How bout trying Whistlewizards idea, and add a couple quarts of hot water too? See how it works with more water.

        Can you hear the water entering the machine when you start it? Does it sound like a good flow?

        I know those stainless lines pump enough for my DW, dishes are perfect. They don't know so they're passing the buck to you.

        Joe H

      2. DanH | Jan 28, 2007 05:32am | #12

        > If there is no float valve to regulate the water level, wouldn't there be significant differences between 20psi and 80 psi water supplies?Within reason, the inlet valve contains a "constant flow" device that produces the same flow regardless of pressure.However, it was said that this unit is on a well. In theory its running between 30 and 50 psi, but if the pressure is a little lower than that then there could be a problem.
        So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

      3. WhistlerWzrd01 | Jan 28, 2007 05:49am | #13

        The water level should be a quarter inch short of overflow.
        I like the other poster's suggestions, add more water and see what happens. Post the results.
        WW

  5. bustaduke | Jan 28, 2007 05:21am | #9

    I have this LG model and I couldn't be more happy. Can't even hear it running and it cleans everything well.

    http://www.us-appliance.com/ldlgfuinbudi1.html

    You might be able to get an answer to you question about appliances at this site.

    http://applianceguru.com/

    busta

    "It ain't da seafood dat makes ya fat anyway -- it's da batta!"

  6. BoJangles | Jan 28, 2007 05:25am | #10

    This is the second dishwasher in this location.  The first was a Kitchenaid, and has been there for about 15 years.  It worked perfectly!  Never a problem.

    I think you have discovered the main problem!!

  7. DanH | Jan 28, 2007 05:29am | #11

    As was said, the fill is controlled by a timer, and the float is only to prevent overflows. As someone else said, check the filter screen on the input to the solenoid valve, and maybe take the valve loose and shake it out for any crud that may have gotten in there.

    The other obvious thing to do is to stop the unit after the wash cycle starts and see how much water is in there. The service literature should tell you how deep it should be, or read how many gallons there should be in a fill and (starting with an empty sump) pour that much water in there and measure it.

    Another thing that can happen is a failure to empty fully, due to some sort of clog in the drain line. (I'm assuming if the plug hadn't been removed from the garbage disposal that someone would have noticed.)

    So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
  8. bobbys | Jan 28, 2007 07:38am | #15

    i know nothing about dishwashers, but had a client that bought a very spendy one from austria, did not clean same things you say, put in by a good plumber, finally they took it out, Turns out the water line was  bent when they pushed it back in, Nothing wrong with  it at all I learned my lesson when i put mine in, Turns out a common thing to happen

    1. ytek | Jan 29, 2007 08:37pm | #16

      Does anyone know the inside diameter of those stainless flexible lines?  The flex coupling that we installed was listed as a "dishwasher hookup".  I have no idea about the size of the pipe itself, but if it was listed for that purpose, I would tend to think it should be big enough.

      Has anyone else used that type of coupling for dishwashers?  If so, do they work OK??

  9. booch | Jan 29, 2007 08:49pm | #17

    2 issues.

    The first was the water level. Open the door after it starts to run. (slowly of course) then see if it has water up to just below the door hinge. That ought to be enough water.

    2nd issue is cooked cheese. ie from a casserol or some goopy stringy mozerella type of cheese. Had that accumulation once and that messed up my Kitchenaid by clogging the inlet screen just below the lower wash arm. Check it and see. it'll be an obvious accumulation on the inside of the screen before the jets blow it up in the lower wash arm.

    Otherwise bad new dishwasher.

    Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
  10. oldfred | Feb 13, 2007 10:55pm | #35

    ytek,

    Did you put an air vent in the drain line?   If not, there is a good chance that most of water is siphoning out before the dishes are washed.  The air vent is a plastic tube with an air hole that you put in the drain line at the top of the loop you (should have) put in the line.  Should show in your instruction booklet.  The vent doesn't come with the machine but is available at hardware stores for +/- $5.

    Our new machine had the exact problem you describe. (Our old machine worked without a vent.)   A service man explained the problem, I installed the vent and it works perfect.     

    Your service people may have assumed you have a vent when in fact you don't?  Unless they pulled the machine out and looked in back, or asked you, they wouldn't know.

    oldfred

     


    Edited 2/13/2007 2:57 pm ET by oldfred



    Edited 2/13/2007 3:49 pm ET by oldfred

    1. ytek | Feb 14, 2007 01:58am | #37

      There is no vent in the drain line.   The drain is a rubber hose that connects to the p-trap of the kitchen sink.   There is a loop at the top, but it is about 8 inches from the p-trap drain.  I can't see how water could siphone out the line.

      So far we have established that there is not enough water filling the tank before beginning the first wash cycle.  The only thing to determine now is why there is not enough water.  The GE service guy says it's because of the flex connector line (about 14 inches long).  I'm not convinced, but I can't think of anything else other than something in the dishwasher that might be clogged.  It is new, so there should not be any trash in the line or filter, unless it was there from the factory.

      I have same opinion about GE appliances as many others here, but I didn't buy these appliances.  My daughter did (without my advice), because they "looked good".

       

      1. dovetail97128 | Feb 14, 2007 03:23am | #38

        ""It is new, so there should not be any trash in the line or filter, unless it was there from the factory."" Even if the house plumbing is new as well you may still have debris caught in the filter at the DW. Stranger things have happened .

        1. User avater
          BillHartmann | Feb 15, 2007 05:23am | #45

          My bathrooms are on the 2nd floor.But on the first I had a vanity and toilet and plumber for a spa tub, but never installed it. 15 years later I put in a shower. And to move some of the lines around. When I cut the old supply lines I could not believe the "stuff" that came out of the.Some of it was water, but not all of it..
          .
          A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          1. dovetail97128 | Feb 15, 2007 05:46am | #46

            Bill,
            I have fought the remains of a HW tank's dip tube for years in my house. For awhile the dip tubes for some HW tanks disintegrated into very small particles that would get caught in every inlet screen, hot water valves at sinks, showers, washing machines etc. in the whole system.
            Unfortunately I owned one of them I am a master at disassembling the ones in my house. I got so I could clean the DW inlet screen in less than 20 min. start to finish.
            I also have seen small pebbles from new construction get lodged in the wall stops and cause problems ranging from just noise to complete blockage. Had one that created an awful screeching noise in a new homes M Bath suite toilet. Toilet guts were replaced twice before I convinced the plumber to remove the stop and see what would happen.

      2. pinko | Feb 14, 2007 03:32am | #39

        Dude, turn off the water to the D/W, remove the toekick cover below the door and reach under the D/W to disconnect the supply line to the supply solenoid. Put the business end in a bucket. Turn the water back on and verify that you have good flow to the solenoid (inlet valve). If you do, odds are you have a clog in the screen inside the inlet vlave (you probably don't have a filter unless it is a very high end appliance). But every D/W inlet valve has a screen inside. If the pressure is good to the inlet valve, pull out the D/W, turn it over and remove the valve. Disassemble and clean out the schmegma in the clogged screen. Problem solved.If problem is not therewith solved, you have a defect somewhere in the machine (Faulty valve, fill timer error, low pump performance, spray wand stuck, etc.)..this is a GE repair.If, on the other hand, you see a low flow from the supply which you disconnected, the problem is on your end (low water pressure or clog upstream of the D/W supply). Backtrack and find your problem.Bottom line is, all you need to do is discover on whose side the problem lies--upstream of inlet valve is your prob; downstream is GE's prob.

        1. ytek | Feb 14, 2007 03:38am | #40

          I agree about discovering which side of the inlet valve the problem is.  So how much water flow is sufficient?  I can fill a bucket, and measure the flow rate, but nobody has given me the minimum flow rate.  Any idea??

          1. pinko | Feb 14, 2007 03:53am | #41

            Yes. Look at your D/W install/owners manual. It should give you a minimum required flow rate (in GPM). If not, get on GE's website, find your model and get the info. Or call them. Then, let your supply fill a 1 gal bucket and time it. If the fill rate satisfied the manufacturer's minimum, then the prob is not yours (but a clogged inlet screen is easy to fix and fun too). In my experience, some appliance tech's are morons who know little or nothing about "your model" or they are very knowledgeable. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground. You can figure this out--or at least figure out whose prob it is.

      3. oldfred | Feb 14, 2007 04:15am | #42

        There is no vent in the drain line.   The drain is a rubber hose that connects to the p-trap of the kitchen sink.   There is a loop at the top, but it is about 8 inches from the p-trap drain.  I can't see how water could siphone out the line.

        It didn't make sense to me either, but I put the vent in at the top of the loop and it solved the problem.  

        Does the GE service guy know you have no vent in the drain line? 

        Have you called GE and talked with the Tech people?

        1. ytek | Feb 14, 2007 06:05pm | #43

          I don't think anybody actually works at GE.  If you call their customer service line, all you get is an automated phone message.   Nobody to talk to.  I would love to talk with someone that actually knows what they are talking about.

          1. oldfred | Feb 14, 2007 07:09pm | #44

            I'm in the process of trying to but tickets on the internet this morning.  Message says to call ticket office.  Ticket office line has been busy all morning.

            "I feel your pain"

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