I was reading some of the posts elsewhere that talked about shoddy electrical work such as live wires buried in insulation and the like andit caused me to reflect back on some bizarre things I’ve seen myself.
Just for general discussion purposes only:
- What bizarre electrical no-nos have you all seen in the field?
and
- From an electrical perspective only, be it a code violation or non-code violation, what causes most house fires with regards to electrical wiring?
I’ve seen some truly bizarre electrical connections that sometimes has taken me hours to figure out and when I did was amazed they never burned the house down. One time I worked on a circuit that was so screwed up I couldn’t begin to explain how the HO wired it (yes the HO fessed up). I also recall once a circuit that I needed to repain in a J-box. I traced it all the way back to the breaker panel (exposed wiringin the basement), flipped off the breaker to de-energize it, went back to the j-box, unwire-nutted it and BAM…nice jolt of 120. Turns out the circuit was energized by yet ANOTHER breaker which made the downside of the splice hot also, I have NO idea how that worked and never caused a problem.
I’ve seen things from hidden taped splices inside walls with the old aged tape no longer adhereing to the wires or otherwise beginning to loose its adhesiveness as well as a hot wire arcing inside a metal electrical box because as the receptacle was used due to constant plugging and unplugging the hot pulled out of the backwired connection slot. Plus I’ve seen many instances of knob and tube wiring buried in insulation where the rayon insulation was so brittle that it had broken and the halves separated and a portion of the bare conductor exposed to the insulation. What other horror stories are out there?
Replies
worst I've seen has been a live romex cable dangling in the attic of my parents home when it was new, seems the electrian missed it on trim out, wires were stripped and just dangling from the box where the light should have been put in.
The Count-Down begins, 81 days left
My FIL asked me tolook at an outlet in his bedroom. Unstabbed the wire and screwed 'em (end of the ckt). Nope. I had just remodeled the downstairs (same floor plan), so I asked "any outlets in the closet" thinking the sparky probably used the same layout up and down. Yep. Two outlets. 3' apart and 6" from the ceiling stuffed in one end of the closet?!?!?!? Unstab and screw them. Nope.
While you're at it, Sam, could you look at the outlet in the bathroom? Across the hall from the bedroom.
Sure, maybe it will be easier than this conundrum. HMMM? A GFCI pigtailed to a thru ckt (paralleled) and the wire nuts have only been barely finger tightened. One falls off in my hand. Tighten them properly.
I wonder. Check the bedroom outlet. It's fixed! Sparky ran the ckt from the bedroom closet across the hall to the bath, then back across the hall to the bedroom. Then the last BF changed the bath outlet to a GFCI. BTW, the lighting ckt does not come from the bedroom.
He, the last BF, also worked on the swag lamp in the kitchen, wirenuts falling off there, too. I'm into checking ALL his work now.
SamT
A couple of weeks ago I inspected a house where, in the main panel, the bond bar had been disconnected between the hot and neutral bars, and the hots and neutrals mixed on the two.
The buyer requested it be corrected by a licensed electrician, and I re-inspected yesterday.
Whoever did the work rerouted the neutrals to one bar and the grounds to another (as if it was a sub-panel) but never reconnected the bond bar.
I inspected a house several years ago that had all sorts of major problems in the main panel, including very bubbled insulation on the mains just above the breaker and discolored metal connectors.
I told the buyer and the seller to get it fixed immediately, and told them that personally, I wouldn't spend 1 night in the house until it was fixed.
4 months later, I got a call asking for a copy of the electric page of my report. "Sure, I'll send one along. What happened to the Report I gave you?"
"It burned up in the fire. They think it was electrical!"
Since then, on several occasions, as a home inspector working for buyers, I've turned circuits or the entire service off because of dangerous stuff I've seen. A few times the owner was there, so I've called them over to show them what the problem was, explain how serious I thought it was, and how I was turning the service off, telling them not to turn it on until an electrician checked it. A few times the owner has turned the service or circuit back on before I could even turn around!
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....I inspected a house several years ago that had all sorts of major problems in the main panel, including very bubbled insulation on the mains just above the breaker and discolored metal connectors.
I suppose the mains had AL wiring.
Have a 70's mobile home on the property I rent out. Panel is in a bedroom. 'get a call from the tenants years ago that they hear some "gurgling" noise coming from the panel. 'sure enough, the main lug connectors had overheated, much of the insulation had bubbled badly, and the lug insulation was just about destroyed. 'glad they called when they did.
I suppose the mains had AL wiring.
I see AL as the main probably 50% of the time and have never seen any reason to believe it is more trouble prone than CU.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Talk about just in time repair....
I got a request about 4 yrs ago to upgrade an old 60 amp panel to a new 200amp panel. No prob, they're a dime a dozen these days still. Typical job. One caveat is the HO wanted to also bury the power drop instead of have it hang so they could play volleyball and such outside unobstructed. This ppresented an opportunity to move thepanel also to a more optimum location. I gave my fee/estimate. He sat on it saving up the cash. Month or two goes by, says come over and do the job.
I get there and inspect the panel. It was one of those old now banned poor excuse for a panel Federal Pacifics that malfunction. This was in July, so the HO was spinning the meter like crazy with fans, portable ACs, etc. The day I get there I see all this stuff is on, fans, ACs, TV's, wife cooking and I'm thinking on a 60amp??? All this at once?
I put my hand up to the cover to remove it and feel this heat, and I'm thinking the sun must be heating the exterior wall so much that it's heated the panel. WRONG. Cover comes off but is relatively hot. Lo and behold, the main breaker, the pull out cartridges, the plastic was just starting to turn into an oozing sticky disgusting black mess...it was melting and darn well hot to touch. I showed the HO, eyes lit up like a christmas tree. Told him he picked a good time to swap panels and he'd be lucky to have his house in the AM.
Needless to say the meter was pulled that instant and I worked forever that day just to get some temp power installed til I could do the other work of burying the cable and relocating the new panel. I'll never forget that job, it was from hell. True to form the old Fed Pac panel was malfunctioning, and they were getting away with pulling way too much amperage for its rating. I saved the breaker/cartridge assembly, makes for great show and tell.
So far as I know, it was only the 100 amp Fed Pac Stab-lok panels which people have complained about - I believe the 60 amp fused panel weren't subject to the CPSC investigation. (In fact, I think the 60 amp panels have a slightly different name on the cover.)
Also, my understanding is that no action was taken on Stab-loks after the investigation - so far as I am aware, they were never banned.
I know a lot of people have pretty strong feelings about them, but there are also a lot of electricians who say they haven't found them to be any more problematic than other brands. Having looked at a few thousand panels myself, I haven't seen unusual problems with them either, but will note that one of the claimed problems is that the breakers can stop working, which isn't necessarily a visually detectable problem.
Personally, if I had one, I'd be making plans to upgrade, though.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
I'm curious, when you find serious dangerous wiring in houses you're inspecting do you ever report them to the city/county electrical inspector? I think I'd tell them I was going to notify the inspector, particularly if they just flip the power back on after telling them about it.
As far as scarey wiring, my current house had some, but the one that took the cake was going in the basement of a friends house. They'd recently purchased an older house, and the dryer plug didn't match up, so they replaced it. He took a 1/4" piece of plywood, cut a hole in it, nailed it to the floor joist above the dryer, shoved the new 220 outlet through the hole and hooked up the wires. Now, there's 30 amps of 220 hanging about 7' high right above the dryer in an area where little kids regularly play. Actually he was asking me about something else and I nearly brushed my hand against it before I saw what it was.
Older guy, little respect for electricity, thought I was just being paranoid when I immeadiately found & turned the breaker off then went to the store to get a box and cover to wire it right. Also put an exterior box over some 12-2 wires that fed his ditch pump. A 220 20 amp circuit. They were just taped together on the side of the house where it switched from interior to underground wire. The tape was just about falling off, and it was right in the middle of the main walkway to the back yard.
Fixed a couple other minor things, but those were the biggies.
He still needs to upgrade the overloaded 60 amp service and panel, but doubt he will as it's too expensive. Works OK unless they run the central AC and oven or dryer at the same time.<G>
I'm curious, when you find serious dangerous wiring in houses you're inspecting do you ever report them to the city/county electrical inspector?
A couple of times. Once when there was unlicensed (I'm sure) "day care" in the house and several exposed contact hazards - bare hot wires dangling above a table and a counter.
The seller was present (together with a bunch of kids) and I told her about the hazards. She responded that the kids (all under age 5 or so) wouldn't ever touch those wires, which were easily within reach of all but the crawlers.
I wired nutted them, but figured the city ought to get involved.
A few times I've called the local electric supplier when there was something dangerous with the service drop (broken neutrals, bare wires within easy reach of an entrance.)
As a general rule, I don't call in the government inspectors - I tell my client, the seller, and the agents about the concerns I have and let them deal with it.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Bob
http://www.kctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1474367&nav=1PuZIQA9
Here is a similar case where a 2 yo died.
"HOLLISTER, Mo. (AP) -- A southwest Missouri family is preparing to bury a 2-year-old boy who was electrocuted.
Christian Filtingberger died Sunday after touching some exposed wires on the backside of a washing machine at his mother's home in Hollister.
A funeral for the boy is planned for Thursday at Snapp-Bearden Funeral Home in Branson. Burial will be in Ozarks Memorial Park Cemetery in Branson.
He is survived by his mother, Cassandra Filtingberger; and one brother, Sebastian Filtingberger, both of the home; and his father, Rondell Pruett.
Taney County officials planned to activate its child death panel to review the facts surrounding the boy's death, but it was considered accidental."
>>As a general rule, I don't call in the government inspectors - I tell my client, the seller, and the agents about the concerns I have and let them deal with it.
That makes sense, though I'm glad you do in special cases, like the day care. I doubt I'd call the county unless it was really bad and they seemed determined to ignore it.
Of course in your example where you told them you wouldn't live in the house as is because of the fire danger, and they had a fire soon after?? I don't know? I'd beat myself up later if they didn't fix it and some kid got hurt or killed wondering if I shouldn't have called the fire marshall or something.
Still, I'd think most people would fix it, or insist it was fixed before the sale if the inspector made sure they understood it was a serious fire or electrocution danger.
Billy, it was right after I learned of the fire that I decided to shut stuff down in serious enough conditions.
Fortunately, no one was hurt in my situation.
Whenever I find myself getting too casual during an inspection, or hurried, I try to remind myself of how I felt when I got the call and before I learned no one was hurt and before I dug out the report to see which house it was.
Thinking of that wakes me up pretty fast!
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Yeah, I'll bet that was a real wake up call. In most cases informing people is enough, but there are a few situations where I'd notify the authorities to make sure it was fixed properlly. Particularly if I thought they were just gonna ignore the warnings.
My friend I mentioned, I just knew the minute I left the house he was gonna walk over to the box and turn the dryer back on. Just couldn't get him to understand it was a potentially fatal problem, and a serious fire danger.
Finally just interupted our visit and dragged him to the store to buy parts. I made him pay for parts, but he got the problem fixed for free.
Funny thing, the little hardware store didn't have the proper cover plate, so we had to take a blank plastic plate (closest they had) and cut a hole in it. Plate broke into 3 pieces while I was trying to cut it(small town, noplace open on a weekend). Held the plate together w/ duct tape and told him to replace it on Monday. That was a couple years ago. They want $3 for the right plate, so he's never replaced it.<G> Oh well, at least it keeps fingers out. Though I hate to have anyone know I did the work the way it looks.<G>
Just a few of the things I've seen:
1. Three prong receptacle on ungrounded system, wired with bootleg ground. Upstream, the white and black wires had been misconnected in a junction box, so at this receptacle, the ground was hot.
2. Bare wires in an attic due to squirrels stripping away insulation
3. Bare wires in crawlspace touching gas line, energizing all the gas appliances (no, gas line was not bonded). Ground wire in panel was also never connected.
4. Numerous houses wired with switched neutral
5. Melted breakers and bus bars due to improper breakers added to panel.
I could go on and on.
12/2W/G used as 12/3 in a 3 way switch configuration.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
>12/2W/G used as 12/3 in a 3 way switch configuration.
ummm. embarrassed to say I've done this once. bathroom addition and kitchen remodel, box of wire was labeled 10/3, ran circuit and drywalled over, installed cabinets, etc., went to wire the switch boxes and found the wire was really 10/2/G. Wire went through 3 90 deg bends, no way to fish it out. I soldered 10/3 to the ground at the ends and wrapped in tape.
comments? this still bothers my conscience. I could go back and redo.
You should.... Done yet?
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I had my home built in 79 as the orginal owner the wiring should be in reasonable shape.
BUT, I had circuit run for a future sauna. Of course over the years plans have changed and I wanted to use that circuit for another purpose. Took off the blank cover plate and found copper splater and burnt ends. They had stripped the insulation and then just stuffed back into the box.
I was paint in the living room/dinning room and had the coverplates off. As I took them off the kitchen lights started blinking.
Well first I had to do some tracing to find out what was on what circuit, no labels on the pannel.
Got everything down to about 6 breakers and what having trouple figurine out. None of them would turn of the 2 furnaces. So I turned them all off and instead tried turn them on, one by one.
I have 2 furnaces mounted side by side and they ran 14-3 to a box and from there to the furnaces. But someone wired the two hots to the single siwtch and moved the breakers so that they where on the same leg.
I can forgive the first two. I would not doubt if the furnace wire was finished up by the HVAC guys. And the stripped wire to the could have been an easy miscommunications between the different installers.
BUT, back to the orginal problem of flickering lights. That was a real, major f*ck up.
Power came into a switch box and then a switched leg and lot ran to the kitchen overhead light, then to sink light, dinning room light. This is all an open area and there is also 3 "hall" lights on the same circuit.
I could not access the problem area and had to wire around it, but someplace between the kitchen switch and light the hot, neutral, and ground where shorted by a nail or staple. So they cut the neutral and ground at the two ends. Then the connected to the neutral to the ground from the load end of the circuit.
That would not have worked, except the hall lights where on a 3-way/4-way switches and one of the switches was in the living room box along with switches for a completely different circuit. All of the grounds for one circuit where wraped together and all of the grounds for another circuit where wrapped together. Each bundle was just pushed back into the box and "happened" to touch. But if any of the switches where wiggled then they would not touch and the kitchen lights went out.
Oh, and I found that the #8 NM (before B) was run for the AC and had a 50 amp breaker. But the AC said that it should have no more than 20 amp overload protection.
But that is nothing compared with what I found at a friends house. The house was built in the 50's and from what I gather the orginal wiring was very well done for it's time. But there has been at least one remodeling and several different different era's of butchers working on it.
There was a sub-pannel for the addition which did not have an isolated neutral. But I think that was code for that time period (70's). But there where no romex connectors where the cables entered the box. Wires where "straight lined" to the breakers. And 30 amp breakers where used on #14. I found switched neutrals on some of the lights in the addition.
With the additon the place became an rasied range with a garage in the lower level connecting to the old basement. They had a 3-way switch in basement and one in the garage that operated a couple of lights. One in the basement was a sconce connected with lamp cord. For the travelrs they used 14-2 and then ran a separete wire. In the unfinished garage ceiling was a "splice" in the opening for the separate wire. Looked like there might have been a wirenut at onetime and it was over tighted and twisted off. There was about an 1/8" of wire exposed and about 3/4 of a turn of wire making the connection.
Then there was the feed for the diswasher. It was tapped off of a 30 amp circuit for a dryer. And of course this was an older 3 wire dryer installation so there was no ground for the DW.
We where cutting out some of the drywall ont he ceiling in the basement to do some rewiring and started seeing sparks. Though that the drywall saw cut the cable. But found a "football" splice. under that splice was a couple of hot that where VERY LOOSELY twisted. The sparks where from the wire moving under the tape. From that splice wires ran up into the upstairs wall where it went to a box that was abonded and burried in thewall.
Are you serious?? You had all those problems in a 79 house? Good lord, I have to wonder how many houses burned down due to the electricians short comings. No pun intended.
I get EC&M (Electrical Construction and Maintenance) magazine, and they have a monthly feature called Code Catastrophes. The latest issue showed a real doozy, a church built right around an energized utility pole...the pole is sticking right up through the roof.
http://ecmweb.com/ar/electric_illustrated_catastrophes_7/index.htm
(if you replace the 7 in the web address with 6, 5, etc. you can see previous months)
Edited 9/26/2003 7:30:42 PM ET by Stuart
PS
Creative award.
In my friends house there was an octagon junction box that someone had covered with the plastic lid from a coffe can.
While installing a solar HW system, plugged the drill into a 120 outlet. Spun very fast for a very short time. 208 across the receptacle.
We were repairing fire damage to a row home when we found the king of all junction boxes. A 4" square box with 11 romex wires ! We discovered that the 4 burner cooktop and the double oven were both run on the same circuit. On one 12/2 wire ! When we informed the homeowner about the problem with this, she said " If you fix it, will I then be able to use the cooktop and the oven at the same time ?"
carpenter in transition
Oh.....my.......gosh.......tell me either you're joking, or she was a blonde?
totally serious, the homeowner never knew why the burners and the ovens never really got all that hot........and no, she wasn't blonde, and no, she didn't speak english.....carpenter in transition
I guess the absolute worst was a situation we were called to investigate by the renters concerning abnormally high electrical consumption and bill at a farmhouse about 15 miles from here.
Didn't take too long to find the problem. Original entrance was via SE cable tacked to the side of the house. Original service box…..old 60 amp, of course. SE eventually became badly frayed and so several years before the landlord had called an "electrician" to install a new set of entrance wires. This time in conduit. BUT………when he did said install, he didn't bother to even remove the old wires from behind the lugs. Just shoved the new ones in there with them and tightened things down!!! We found the old frayed SE cable lying out on the lawn where the guy had tossed it from the ladder when he installed the new (remember this is still hooked up). Its' bare ends are sticking in the ground drawing current. Lots more current when it would rain and the ground would get wet.
This thing lay there for years with the renters' kids playing out in the yard everyday!!
And then there's stuff like this…………….
Wait a minute...you're telling me that the electrican came to this place, installed new SE cable and left the old SE hooked to the electric panel?? I don't understand. The new SE would be hooked up at the utility drop, then follow the house into the panel. but from you're saying, the old cable was still hooked up to the panel, going outside into the lawn where it was just laying??? holy cow, I think that one takes the award from the most stupid, deadly electrician fowl up I've ever heard.
A friend of mine owns an electrical contracting company. He got a call for a service upgrade for a barn at a large farming operation. When he looked up at the connection point for the SEC and the service drop he saw one hot leg was held together with vise grips. He climbed up to check and the vise grips had been there so long they had paint on them from the last barn paint job. The barn was due a paint job again. DanT
Vise grips? Since when has duct tape been given way to vise grips? And I thought Duct tape would've been the choice of anyone so stupid to do such a thing. Holds everything else together, and far better than wire nuts or crimp connectors.
Wait, where is my duct tape, my head is about to explode at the thought of someone using vise grips
Yes, I'm afraid that exactly what he did. We could hardly believe it. I think he was one of those "6-pack by noon" electricians.
He undid the connections to the old SE where it was spliced at the house insulator, pulled it off the house and let it fall to the ground. Then mounted the mast virtually right on top of where the old SE had been. Bored a new hole through the sill and hooked up the new without pulling the old out from the lugs. Big lugs and #6 stranded copper wire. Too lazy to pick up the old SE or he would have MAYBE discovered what he'd done. Instead he just left it lay where he tossed it.
When we first arrived, I walked around the house and found the cable lying there, half buried in the dirt by now and I yanked it out of there. Thought to myself about how lazy people are that they wouldn't clean up the mess. Tossed it back down intending to take it with me later. That's when we went in the basement to investigate and discovered "the deed". Just as my eyes realized what they were looking at there in the box, I could hear the kids playing on that side of the houseyard again. Raced outside fearing that they'd manage to grab it and get shocked or worse....on the very day we were called to find "a problem".
Everything turned out okay but I'll never understand why those kids didn't get hurt during all the years that cable lay there. Kids are curious.
Here's another event caused by the same type of attitude........
Same house.........landlord hires "plumber" to replace a bunch of lines and install new runs to 2nd story added bathroom. The residents go to bed that night and then get up in the morning to find the kitchen ceiling and floor soaked. Can't reach the "plumber". We get the call.
You guessed it. CPVC was used throughout and he "forgot" to weld any of it. Just stuck it all together dry and left when the clock turned 5 PM. This guy was the son of a very reputable and respected area plumber, but didn't share his father's enthusiasim, sense of responsibility or pride of a job well done. And he had a bit of a habit, if you know what I mean. There were more incidents like that from Sonny and so eventually Daddy tossed him.
With tradesman like that in the area for a while back then, it was easy to look like a shining star.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
My jaw is down in total disbelief. Those are two of the absolute award winning bizarre finds I've heard of.
I'd hate to ever be one who it could be traced back to that killed someone or severely injured them due to my negligence or "habits." That no kids got hurt is a miracle and thank the Lord for it.
As to the plumbing fiasco. Just when I think I've heard it all. How do people like that get outof bed and put on their undies and pants and get out the door?
Pyro,
I personally know of one that ranks right up there in equivalency as far as electrical safety/unsafety goes. It was in an large home, converted to 5 apartments. I rented one of those apartments for a few years. The landlord was a REALLY cheap miserly sort.....and extremely dumb. I fear to tell you what he did to save a few bucks and so I won't. Folks won't believe it. When discovered, the residents of said apartments all got together for a meeting and we decided to call the housing department to report it. They made him correct it. This guy prided himself on saving a penny wherever he thought he could get away with it. Example fo miserly attitude: He rented out all the apartments and lived alone in the dark damp basement. He had plenty of coin to do things right, but was just a tightwad at heart.
I think there's more of this stuff in the world than we get to see because the worst of it takes place at the hands of people who don't have much money and so will never call a tradesman. They just rig things with whatever is at hand and hope for the best.
Here's a example of that sort of thing. My partner bought the house he currently lives in back around '72. House is in a small little town here in NW Illinois......more like a "hamlet". Previous owner lived there for 50 years or more and so was around for the introduction of electricity to the community. As you know, electricity was not well understood or adequately respected back then. The attitude was something like........"juice is juice". Anyway, this fella liked to do some work out in the backyard after dark, frequently in different locations. And so, being the clever guy he was (tongue in cheek), he strung a bare "hot" wire from the back of the house to a tree at the back of the yard..about 7' off the ground. His light consisted of a socket equipped with one wire fastened to an insulated alligator clip and another to a metal stake. You get the picture. Lighting wherever he wanted it at the moment. This arrangement was still in use when my partner bought the place.
The resulting deaths and fires from such arrangements is why we have a code today. Unfortunately, a code doesn't find and eliminate all this old "stuff". It's out there all over the place. Many farms out here still sport California three-ways on the yardlights from 50 years ago.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
>California three-ways
Whazza California three-way?
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
An arrangement of circuitry and wires in which one of the two travelers is used in alternating fashion to provide grounding for the appliance (yardlights mostly around here) depending upon which of the three-ways switches is last asked to close the circuit.
This was done to save the cost of running an extra wire to provide ground across long distances, such as from the service box at the house out to the yardlight, say at the barn.....when the cost of wire was expensive to most farmers.
Same arrangement was also done with a four-way or more than one four-way in the circuit, but most of them that I run across are simply a three-way circuit with one switch in the house and one at the barn.
Needless to say, this doesn't make code here anymore.
Edit: If that sounds like a bit of a cryptic description, it's because I don't want to "teach" anyone how to do this. It isn't a safe arrangement. Let it suffice to say that you'll know one when you see one. There will be, for instance, only two wires running from the house to the barn (or from a house to a garage) and yet a three-way switch at both locations to control the same device.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 9/28/2003 5:36:41 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Another good one I just found - note the hots stuick behind the breakers!
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Do I understand this correctly: An additional hot wire is somehow pinched in between the breaker and the blade of the service panel? I suppose the only overcurrent protection is whatever the main breaker is rated for? Wow.
Rich- yep, that was exactly what was going on!
It's stuff like that which makes me tend to discourage DYI wiring. The wires were "sized properly," just not connected properly.
Suppose a DYIer has asked here if #12 cu could be connected to a 20 amp breaker. We would all have said sure - how many would think to tell 'em how to connect it, or think of all of the wrong ways of connecting it - or even think that there could be a wrong way of connecting it?
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Edited 10/5/2003 12:26:52 PM ET by Bob Walker
Bob - Just took another look at your photo. Is that a white wire connected to the breaker on the bottom?
Bob - Just took another look at your photo. Is that a white wire connected to the breaker on the bottom?
Yep - there were lots of other issues ion that box, but the unfused circuits jammed under the breakers took the cake.
As best I could tell, that white wite was just not marked with black tapoe or marker as being hot - it was feeding a dryer, if I recall.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Can't remember if I've told this story before, but.....
My BIL is an appliance repairman. He has contracts with some major manufacturers to do warranty work for them.
He got a call to look at a brand new electric dryer in a neighboring town that didn't work. When he got there he found the HO had cut the 220v cord off, spliced in a cheap 110v extension cord, and plugged the dryer into a regular 110 15 amp outlet.
He told the HO that was a no-no, and beat a hasty retreat."I have come to regard the law courts not as a cathedral but rather as a casino." [Richard Ingrams]
Ok, I'm going to call your hand...what was the despicable act that we won't believe?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Okay. Mind you, I didn't want to relate this cause it's hard to imagine, but true nonetheless.
If I recall, I gave a brief description as to how stingy this aged apartment house landlord was. Went thru the Depression and it made a big impression on him evidently. But I think he was a natural born tightwad anyway. You'll see what I mean, I think.
A few of us guys were down in a usually gated and locked area in the basement one night back where Billy kept "stuff" and old tools. Just lookin' around and sippin' beers. I glanced up and saw a couple of bare wires running under the floor joists. One wire each on two neighboring joists. Held loosely in place about every three feet with fencing staples. I'm thinkin' some sorta makeshift clothesline or the like. Didn't make sense though cause you couldn't easily get a clothespin on anything. Hmmmm. I traced the wires with my eyes and discovered that they ran back to the service box!!! Oooh my God! Traced them back to the other end where they entered the single story addition that was built about thirty years earlier. Ooooh my God!
We were all awe struck by what we saw. Visions raced through our heads. None of them pretty at all. We snared old Billy the next morning as he emerged from his basement lair and asked if he was aware of the situation. Oh yes. He proudly told us how they had saved a few bucks when he and Daddy built the addition.....all by themselves. "See, we had this bare copper wire already that we had salvaged and so rather than spend good money on some that was insulated…………."
What a crusty old penny-pinching @#$%^&*!
That's when we called the building department and reported our find. It cost Billy some bucks to make things right and he wasn't very happy with any of us. We all replied the same when he asked us who had called the authorities on him…………" I don't know".
About a year later he had to have the roof reshingled. Layover, of course. <g> Every afternoon when the guys went home, he'd "sneak out" (hard to do in the broad daylight of afternoon, but he tried) and proceed to fill his pockets with roofing nails from the box left out in drive. What a guy.
Old Billy chain-smoked Pall Malls. Old and confused. Frequently had two going at the same time.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
This is kind of veering off the original topic, but...
I'm an electrical engineer, and ten years ago I was working on a construction project in Taiwan. All the labor was done by locals, and one day I was watching one of the subs trying to arc weld something that was out of reach of his welding cables. He rooted around the job site and found some pieces of steel strapping off packing crates, clamped them together end to end with vice grips, and used them as extensions for his cables. Every time he struck an arc, those straps would spark and dance around on the concrete floor.
It was one of those times where I had to just go somewhere else on site and pretend I didn't see what I just saw. Somehow, no one ever got hurt (or killed) on that job, I guess what they didn't know couldn't hurt them.
Found this in the basement of a bar/banquet hall. There were a pair of rubber boots on the top step that I passed on the way down. Didn't raise a flag until I got to the service panels and found two inches of water on the floor in front of the panels.
That's precious.
Looks like something a guy I knew years ago would have found quite acceptable. His attitude toward electricity was "juice is juice".
I (mistakenly) loaned him one of my compressors for a couple of days. 1 1/2 HP twin cylinder that I later discovered he initially attempted to run on two 25' lampcords, despite the fact that I told him 50' of #12. Melted the cords within seconds.
Never loaned him any more tools.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
There were a pair of rubber boots on the top step ....
Presumably the idea was that you'd trip over the boots and kill yourself from the fall down the stairs, so you wouldn't get zapped and suffer a horrible fate?
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Another example of precarious ingenuity? LOL
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Same kind of deal with an agricutural twist:
Lived in an old sheep farmers "rock house" in South Texas for a few months many years ago. Poking around one day I noticed he had electrified his fence, but not with the typical electric fencer (think they convert 120 to high voltage/low amps). Instead, he had just spliced in the hot to one fence wire, and the neutral to the other fence wire, from an extension cord plugged into the receptacle! Fence wires were insulated from the steel posts with standard wire/post insulators.
Givesnew meaning to that old lesson Dad taught us when I was a kid:
"Don't pee on the electric fence"
I have to wonder if he ever ended up with some pre-cooked mutton?
Went to pop my head up into a suspended ceiling once....pushed up a 2x4 tile, found the grid was hot....about 3 tiles away, found a 3' pigtail off of a florescant fixture...going to where they had removed a fixture to add a wall...hot wasn't nutted or taped, and was against the ceiling grid.
Ok, here's another. There two behind the bar, one at each sink. Both had bulbs removed "so bartenders wouldn't cut their hands if they broke the bulbs while washing glasses".
Eric
I resized it -for quicked DL and lightened it a bit
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
Thanks Bob!
Since I got the cable modem I guess I've forgotten to be kind to the dial-up masses. ;-)
Eric
Years ago I bought a smoke detector for my parents for Christmas. I knew it could take months for them to get around to buying batteries and installing the unit so I put in batteries before I mailed it.
About a week after Christmas my mom heard a strange noise. When she went to investigate she discovered the electrical fire that started in an outlet in a back bathroom.
Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.
Had a job last month where the all the oulets were removed, leaving the wires sticking out of the wall. GC said the breaker was off.
I nutted all the hot wires anyway and tucked them back into the boxes.
Realized I missed one when the sander made contact and proved the GC wrong (the breaker was not switched off). Very large sparks for a few seconds.
Another: A 5 year old boy was killed when he reached into a panel box and grabbed the bus bar. Seems the floor guy forgot to put the cover back on after he panel dived for 30amps.
Ditch
"Seems the floor guy forgot to put the cover back on after he panel dived for 30amps"
Never heard the "panel dive" expression before, but that must be what the hardwood floor folks did on my remodel. 'stopped by one evening to see the panel off, and a dual-breaker plugged in, connected via a looong cord upstairs to the 240V floor sander. Of course, the grounding conductor was left unconnected. OK, fine, if they want to work with equipment with an ungrounded metal case, it's their heart that might go into defib. BUT, I then noticed the unconnected ground wire was dangling, bare, within an inch or so of the main breaker lugs! Yup, almost touching the unfused 200 amp wires coming from the meter base. 'would take much of a movement of the cord going to the sander to light it up with some real power.
'took the chance to (carefully) put some electrical tape over the main lugs. ;)
'gave the GC a bad time about bringing folks into the house that were trying to kill someone or burn it down. And asked him what the inspectors would say about a report of someone neither an electrician nor a homeowner (the only people legally allowed inside a panel around here) rooting inside the panel on this job.
And before anyone gives DIY'ers exclusive blame for some of these problems, let me tell you what the "licensed electrician" working on this remodel did. I was changing out all the receptacles in the TV room - SO wanted a different color, and I fgured what the heck, always a good idea to replace those $.23 el-cheapos the electricians usually install with some decent, $1.89 commercial-quality ones. After doing the second one, which were really cheap ones that didn't even have screw terminals, only the back stab-in holes, I thought, "wait a minute, didn't I throw a 20A breaker?". Sure enough, I did. But the receptacles were all on 14 AWG wire! I pulled the panel, and the breaker was feeding a 12 AWG wire. (?) Eventually, I found that all these outlets he had installed were fed off an existing, 20A, 12 AWG branch. The SOB was too cheap to run some 12 AWG cable.
Last night I found out that one of the pre-remodel receptacles is now non-functioning. Gonna try to figure out what's going on tonight.
In the last few houses I've lived in, I have hired floor refinishers a number of times. Without exception they have all used the panel diving method. Sometimes they attach onto an a/c breaker, sometimes they just clamp on to the main lugs. The guys I used never left a ground wire dangling inside the panel and they always closed up the box when they were done. But as far as opening up and attaching to the inside of the service panel, I think this is their only choice because of the size of the equipment they use. I suppose the right way to do it would be to have an electrician come out and set up some sort of temporary feed, but in order to be competitive, they just learn how to do it themselves. As a HO, I figure all you can do is make them produce a certificate of liability insurance and make sure they put everything back the way they found it when they're done.