Replies

1. 
   VaTom | Dec 02, 2003 03:41am | #1

   Not sure what I'm goign to do at this point, I just need to store documents and such.

   I picked up a free-standing safe at auction, key-type (low security), for $7.50 with 2 1/2" concrete walls.  The chiseled hole in the back was the reason for the low price.  My thinking was the same as yours, but as we built a house that won't burn (concrete) I ended up using it to store the valuable tools that could easily be carried off from my remote shop.

   At least yearly I see these offered here.  Price never goes over $50.  Hernia-time to move one.  You know, concrete doesn't cost much.  How about making your own if you aren't worried about security?

   PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

1. 
   brownbagg | Dec 02, 2003 04:01am | #2

   I keep all mine in the gun safe.

   The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"

1. 
   caseyr | Dec 02, 2003 04:51am | #3

   I vaguely remember reading about someone who placed some computer floppy disks in a fire safe and was able to recover them after the building was completely destroyed by fire.  The longer the rating, the better off you are likely to be.  There are a number of variables, however.  If the safe was in a basement and the whole house collapsed on top of it, then it might sit in something like a charcoal pit for long enough to incincerate the contents.  However, if the fire department was pumping water into the remains of the building, then the cool water might cool it off rather rapidly and (if it was water tight) the contents might remain unharmed.  I would guess than any would be better than nothing.  However, back in the days when floppy disks were used for primary storage, we used to suggest to anyone that wanted to make sure and have valuable records after a catastrophy, to make sure and keep a copy at home, one at the office, and a third in their safe deposit box.  Oh yes, and to keep them all updated and in synch... 

   I did a quick internet search and couldn't find any articles on anyone actually doing a test of fire safes, so I guess you will need to depend on the trustworthyness of the manufacturer's claims.

   There was a note on one of the retailer's websites:FIRE WARNING: Fire safes are ”fire resistant“ not ”fireproof.“ Some areas within a home are more likely to burn at a temperature higher than 1200° F because of their location closer to fuel sources. You can improve your safe‘s ability to protect your valuables by placing it away from common sources of household fires. Placing a safe in a basement, far away from the kitchen, garage and heating appliances will reduce the possibility of room temperatures exceeding 1200° F.

    

1. 
   BillHartmann | Dec 02, 2003 06:43am | #6

   Yes, I have a small media safe (about 13x10x15"). It cost about 3 times and holds about 1/2 of the material than the fire resistant "paper document" version with the same OD.

2. 
   Piffin | Dec 02, 2003 05:25am | #4

   I had to buy and install one for a customer a few years ago.

   Cost was almost no object on this. His requisites were that if he had certain important papers stored in it, and the house burned down, he would be able to retreive them.

   I went to work searching and studying and here is what i found, from memory only so the details may be inaccurate but the principles are here.

   First thing I was told is that his request was impossible to gaurantee, no matter how good a safe he bought. Most better ones would preserve the contents in a salvagable condition but not mint.

   if the door is heavy and fits tight, the minimal amt of O2 in the interior of the safe will only allow some charring.

   A good safe is designed with a material similar to concrete that holds moisture and releases it at high temps to have a cooling effect for a certain time.

   There are two sets of standards for rating fire safes. So when looking at the half hour or hour rating, it is important to know which. As I remember it, the American standard is tested/ calibrated at 2000°F and the Japanese/Asian standard is at 1200°F. I may be wrong on the actuall numbers here but the temp diff is considerable. Most of the cheaper WalMart and Box store safes made in Asia are rated at the lower standard.

   In my search, I found a safe or two near four humndred bucks that met the higher standard. I bought a built in styule that was larger and had an electronic keypad for about $1200. Locks make a diff in cost too.

   Key

   Tumbler

   Electronic

   The owner was so happy with it that he had me forward the info on it to his contractor in another state so he could have the same safe keyed to the same number in both locations.

   I had another customer buy her own safe at Sears for about $125 to build in. After seeing the diff in how they both installed, I had no doubt that I could remove the cheaper one in five or ten minutes if I were a burglar familiar with safes. The better one in the other house will never be removed without a Caterpilar pulling the wall section with a large chain.

   Now here is one more piece of advvice for anyone having a safe. take care of the key or combination#.

   Both of these customers lost theirs. The cheaper one was a key and/or combination type lock. She lost both and needed to pay a locksmith more than the cost of the safe. The other customer with the big good one forgot his combination. I had set it up and told him how to change it for security sake but he never had. When he called me for the combination, I had to think for a minute or three but I was able to call it out to him. I liked being able to serve him that way and the trust he placed in me about leaving it in my knowledge, but it makes me very uncomfortable, knowing that if there ever is a theft/burglary, I will be on some detective's list of interviewees.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   caseyr | Dec 02, 2003 06:09am | #5

   If it were me and I wanted the best protection, I would get a floor safe and install it in the basement (or floor) slab.  None of these that I have seen were all that large, but some of them seemed pretty secure. 

   The UL fire test standards for safes and record protection equipment is at:

   http://www.ul.com/fire/safes.html

   a link is given to a more complete description, but I didn't find anything here about the temperatures used.  They say that there are three standards UL Class 350, 150, and 125.  You can find some equipment at the different ratings by doing a Google on "UL class 350" etc.   Some of the advertising copy says that UL Class 350 is tested at 1700 degrees for the number of hours of the rating (i.e. one-hour or two-hour rating). 

   Actually, just ran onto http://www.deansafe.com/FAQ.html  which seems to give the best explanation. 

3. 
   renosteinke | Dec 10, 2003 04:41am | #7

   I have tested fire safes.

   Consider your needs. Simple, easy protection from a minor fire might be provided by something as simple as an old refrigerator! Or, you could "beef up" a closet by building up several layers of drywall, and installing a rated fire door & frame.

   Safes generally come in two types: fire resistant and burglary resistant. A common variant is to have a burglary-resistant niche in a fire-resistant cabinet.

   For records, there are fire-rated file cabinets out there; check the office supply houses.

   A safe that is tested for fire resistance typically will have passed two primary tests: having withstood a fire for the stated time, then being dropped three stories and re-heated. At the end of the test, the safe must have remained closed; papers can be charred, but not destroyed. Typically, they're soaking wet.

   A burglary-resistant safe will have been tested as to its' resistance to specific types of forced entry for a specific period. The tamper-resistance of the locking mechanism is an entirely separate matter.

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 10, 2003 06:24am | #8

   Tell me, why are those pares wet after a fire. I sdem to remember that the cementious material is designed to give off moisture under heat to protect the contents. Is that the cause?.

   Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   MajorWool | Dec 10, 2003 10:11am | #9

   Fire rated safes typically use wall board as the insulator. One can improve a fire safe by adding another layer or two of wall board around it. In addition, one can also put a safe within a safe, such as putting a small insulated lock box for papers inside a larger gun safe. A few sealed gallon jugs of water adds alot of heat energy capacity to keep it cool. The safe interior won't get much hotter than 200 degrees until all that water has boiled off. Similarly, one can also store the emergency water jugs next to the safe. Also, check with office furniture places which might have used insulated filing cabinets.

   I'd check with other banks. $50 is pretty high for a small box, 25-30 is more appropriate. And banks are starting to add Saturday hours. Since my mortgage is with the bank, I get either a free box or $25 off my much larger box. OTOH, that $50 a year isn't much if you consider the amount of money people might spend to contest a will that was destroyed by fire. Your papers might not have tangible value to others, but they have value for your family. I made copies of important family historical documents and sent them to my siblings. I keep all the originals of documents at the bank, and copies at home for reference. My backup hard drives also live at the bank and come home briefly every two weeks for an update.

   Safes and home security is a topic that could occupy several pages. Unfortunately, the seminal article was written a decade ago in Machine Gun News which is now out of print. I know the author and may contact him to see if he's willing to put it on a web page somewhere.

5. 
   ian | Dec 10, 2003 01:47pm | #10

   For what its worth fire rating a safe is about recovering the contents in a tradeable condition after a fire.  For example if, after the fire, the number on the $100 bill is still readable the Fed Reserve will replace it.  I suggest that this is not a good survival standard for things like wedding certificates, diplomas, photos, and other personal papers. 

   Ian

6. 
   junkhound | Dec 10, 2003 03:16pm | #11

   Ya got a pick. sledge, welder and some time (consider it a work out, cancel you gym membership for a month<G>)

   The attachment is an addition to the basement wall, have not 'gotten around' to welding up the door yet. Foot thick concrete wall out in the dirt.  The basement floor safe idea earlier is not too good if you ever get water in the bsmt!.

   
7. 
   BossHog | Dec 10, 2003 04:21pm | #12

   The pic that Junkhound posted looks like a good system. Put something fireproof around the outside, like concrete.

   It would act as a heat sink and keep the safe from getting too hot.

   Freedom and duty always go hand in hand, and if the free do not accept the duty of social responsibility they will not long remain free. [John Foster Dulles]