Howdy everybody. In our neck of the woods we recently had softball(that’s right I said softball) sized hail. Within 48 hours we had 50 roofing contractors parking their trailers on Main St.(not to mention paintless dent removal contractors) My brother-in-law and I we’re thinking of getting in on the action. We just want to do the simpler roofs, like 4 in 12 gables up to about 1800 s/f. We have experience doing about 25 roofs between the two of us. Sounds simple right?
I’ve called around about getting liability insurance and am getting the runaround. Most companies say they don’t write roofing policies anymore. One ventured a guess that it would be between 5 to 10 thousand dollars for a policy. This does not sound correct to me. I have a flooring business and my $250,000 policy is under $500 a year. We would have a partnership and no employees. Also, a contractor friend of mine said that OSHA is out cracking skulls around town. If we had no employees would OSHA have jurisdiction over us? We don’t want to invest in jacks and scaffolding to do a few 4 in 12 roofs.
Also, if anyone has any suggestions for us, please let’s have em. Like mistakes you’ve made or shortcuts you’ve learned for tearoff, dripedge, ridgevents, flashing or anything else you can think of.
We aren’t pros but we are committed to doing a good quality job. We’ll only do a few roofs a month so it’s not like we have to hurry up and get to next one or anything.
Replies
Hawk,
We don't want to invest in jacks and scaffolding to do a few 4 in 12 roofs.
Which is why your premiums are going to be 5-10 thousand.
I've called around about getting liability insurance and am getting the runaround. Most companies say they don't write roofing policies anymore. One ventured a guess that it would be between 5 to 10 thousand dollars for a policy. This does not sound correct to me.
I have a flooring business and my $250,000 policy is under $500 a year.- When's the last time you fell off a floor? A nasty fall off ANY roof, 4/12 or 12/12, could cost the insurers 100's of thousands or more,.... and you don't want to by the proper safety equipment? YOUR the reason OSHA's out "cracking skulls", so you don't crack your own, or your B-I-L's and cost all of us thousands more on our policies.
What would happen to your flooring Co. if you fell off the staging.........Oh, wait you don't use staging, never mind.
Free advice...stick to flooring. If your going to do something, do it right, or don't do it at all. If you want to be a quality roofer use quality tools and present a quality appearance to the public. Get insurance, buy staging,ladders, tools, etc..and pull permits if needed. Do it right!
If we had no employees would OSHA have jurisdiction over us? yes. If you have a partnership you are a Corp. of some sort, and you are the employees of the Co. If you're a sole proprietorship one of you is the owner and the other is an employee or sub-contractor.
end of rant
Geoff
Thank You Geoff.
geoffrey,
i wouldn't set up jacks on a one story 4/12. are you saying you would? you could have everything prepped in the time it takes to set up the jacks.
i'm all for working safely but cmon. i don't think he asked anything unreasonable. your reply would suggest otherwise. take it easy.
That may have been a little harsh, but I understand where you are coming from.But there is another arrangement that allows them to work together without OSHA banging them on the head and that is a legal partnership. Problem with tht is that it is the worst of arrangements for a business relationship. An LLC might be viable too.On the insurance Q, you mention getting hurt by falling off, but this guy is talking Liability insurance, not Worker's Comp. They are two different animals.of course, the vague business arrangement could be a reason for the Ins co quoting high
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That is on the high side for insurance, but roofing is much more libelous than flooring. Also, it seems to me that you need a much higher limit than a lousy quarter million bucks. something fall off that roof and onto somebodies head and cripple them and it will cost millions.
I do not much appreiate those who suddenly deide they have the skills to benefit from a hail storm as a general rule, but you seem to have SOME of the skills and experinece for the simple ones. Your attitude towards safety will eventually kick you in the butt though. Get what is needed and sell it again when you decide you are not a roofer anymore.
Advice on how to?
Come back with specifics when you figure them out.
Make 100% sure you have them covered and in the dry every night.
After roofing for a whilke, you get to be a better weather man than the meteorologists.
Good luck to you and your customers
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Where are you at that you had this softball sized hail? Good time to fill out that profile!
Doug
elsewhere doesn't seem unreasonable...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Your on here early.........
fishing day starts in a bit...
got stormed out yesterday..
need to make up for lost R&R...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
need to make up for lost R&R...
Well there ya go, one should never have to give any of that up, to valuable!
I gotta git to work, not supposed to work today but I guess if you screw around all week ya have to make it up on Fridays! Catch a big one for me.
Doug
consider it done..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
time to go out and get the R&R cranked up...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
that sounds about right. Liability here in NW florida after Ivan was about 7,000. Lots of liability in occupied homes.
Thank you all. Central Wisconsin. My brother-in-law and I are close and our wives are sisters and best friends. We would not screw eachother. Seriously, I believe that. We are committed to safety more than anything. We are too old to be too risky. I'm 38 and he is 48. As far as benefitting from a hail storm, part of the reason I thought of this is because I keep hearing how people want to keep their money local because the economy has been bad around here for about 5 years. (Mill town!)
part of the reason I thought of this is because I keep hearing how people want to keep their money local because the economy has been bad around here for about 5 years.
Then encourage them to hire established local roofers and keep them in business. Most hail damage does not to be repaired immediately. It shortens the life of the roof material. We had a hail storm about a month ago. There's suddenly a bunch of storm chasers driving Hummers and charging about $60-$70 a square less than the local market. But they'll be gone in a month and there'll be nobody to fix the leaks resulting from shoddy workmanship and corner cutting. But, they've taken work from the locals.
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Edited 7/13/2007 11:07 am ET by seeyou
I definitely plan on advising them to use a local contractor. ;)
You're not old....not at 38 and 48.
Local contractor (age about 35 at the time) fell off a 3/12 pitch to a grassy lawn and spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair with one hand capable of operating the controls. He died last year after spending nearly half of his life as a quadraplegic.
While there is definitely money to be made in roofing...if the quality is consistently good...it is dangerous.
The concern I have with your original post is your planning to limit yourself to 4/12 pitches. Construction is, traditionally, a boom and bust trade. When times are lean and your cash flow is a little anemic, do you raise your bar to 5/12? 6/12? 14/12?
So you get really busy and establish a good rep and so you and/or your partner may have to resort to packing a clipboard while you depend on some often undependable types to complete jobs professionally and maintain your reputation.
There are approximately 20 roofing contractors in my area (small market). Half of them are hacks. There are some who are good, but who also do a lot of remodeling and additions to stay busy. There are two who are above the rest and the owners do very well, BUT most of their work is commercial (where the serious money is) and they take on residential just to keep their crews busy.
I got so sick of dealing with independent roofing contractors that, for the last 5 years or so, my crew and I have done our own roofing. I'd love to take on a 4/12 pitch or less....just once...just to see how my ankles felt at end of day.
I suggest one of you should hire on with a roofer for awhile and get a better handle on what you're getting yourself into.
BTW, I'm 60 and consider those in their 30's to be kids (wish I still was). :-)
Notch, I appreciate your post. This roofing gig will be very part time for us. I am a flooring contractor and my brother-in-law has a full time office gig. We just plan to do a few roofs on weekends to make some extra cash. We could be very selective of the roofs we take and if business dries up, oh well, at least we made a little cash and maybe we can get a roof here or there from people at church or if one of my contractor friends refers us.
Don't take that to mean that we will be hacks. We would treat every roof as if it were our own. (or better!) We live in a small town too and we wouldn't be able to hide!
want to make some extra money? get a paper route. you both have good carrers going you screw around at 48 and get hurt whose going to feed the kids?
run a ad in the paper with a sale on flooring and work on sat and sun and i think you will make more than a roofer up there baking his azzz off.
just quick numbers for around here 30 year shingles pay 115 sq. cost 48sq,tar paper ,nails etc 10 a sq. so you make 55.00 a sq with no tear off. if your half fast as weekend roofer 10 sq a day. profit 550 divided by 2 = 225 a day less insurance cost,gas etc. i got a buddy in the wood floor bussiness that equals about 2 hours of his labor working in the shade with no weather problems.
lots of ways to make money but at 48 roofing after working in a office all week there's got to be a better way. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Larry,How much are they charging in Wichita for roof tear off?^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
standard slope they are getting 35 a sq per layer for tear off and disposal. don't have your roof on yet? i've got to get rolling and start getting bids for this fall on about 8,the others i will do myself.you got anyone so far you like? larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Larry, I did mine myself and don't plan on doing that again.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Larry,I replaced a Zinsco electrical panel in my house yesterday.These were popular in Wichita in 1950's houses.I have the old one with various 15, 20, 30, 40 and 50 amp breakers in it.I put in a new homeline panel.Anyway, do you want the old panel? I would give it to you if you want it.The breakers are expensive and hard to find. You might be able to use them if you have any houses with Zinsco breaker boxes. It says "Magnatrip" on the door.I paid $60 for one of the circuit breakers a couple of years ago when I installed a dishwasher in my house.Let me know if you want it.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
i do still have 4 or 5 houses with those breakers. give me a call 204 4354 ,i'd love to have them,so that way i never need them...... isn't that how it goes? larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
"Don't take that to mean that we will be hacks. We would treat every roof as if it were our own."That is part of the problem with weekend roofers. There is barely a roof that can be finished in two days to tear off, re-roof and clean up. So the poor HO has a roof with potential leaks and house damage from storms while you leave it open for a week, maybe two if the weather is bad the following weekend. Regardless of the quality workmanship you intend to do, the business practices and methodology is hack style when you degrade the customer to part time status. Each customer should be priority one until their job is finished.And your BIL office worker will not be able to keep up on roofing weekends only. it takes a week or three to get in shape for that kind of work.
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it takes a week or three to get in shape for that kind of work.
I've been at it 20+ years now and I'm still not in shape.
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I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
Grant---- i am roofing a pretty big roof( for me) this week------about 130 square.
I start at 6:00 AM and try to get my 18 square a day laid by noon---6 nailed.( I could do more----but after 6 straight hours,noon,or 18 square--- whichever comes first-----my productivity falls off---so why bother?)
anyhow---- you would think I would be in better shape
with regaurds to the O.P.-------at least the storm chasers KNOW they are thieves
the O.P. INTENDS to be "committed to quality"--------- but I suspect he doesn't know what he doesn't know
i am tempted to pity his customers
but after watching the shenanigans going on HERE after our hail storm
I am noticing that the people being hosed---in general deserve to be hosed.
yesterday afternoon a lady described to me how her neighbor was BRAGGING about how great HER fly-by-night storm chaser was"--- he is gonna write it up so the insurance company thinks we are getting this,this and this----but we are really gonna get that and that"
catch that---in her twisted logic the fact that the strom chaser was OPENLY defrauding the insurance company was a PLUS in her mind.
GEE lady--- if he will cheat the insurance company---think YOU are gonna be unscathed?????????????
stephen
We're doing one hail damage roof in a subdivision ( the owner is the office manager of a law firm whose office is in an historic building in Frankfort that we've been maintaining the roof/box gutters on) that was hit pretty hard. She caught a lot of flack from her neighbor who got 5 bids (all unsolicited) to replace his roof vs her one proposal. She was starting to second guess herself until the ABC driver asked her how she got me to do hail damage work on short order (we've got two roofs torn off and another 15-20 to shingle and I can't get color selections from the customers). He asked if Chalio was gonna run her job or someone else ( he was concerned that I might be subbing anybody I could get) and she didn't know. He thinks Chalio hung the moon, 'cause he understands how the boom truck works. Instead of standing up on the roof waiting for the boom, if the horizontal distance is too great to lift full pallets, Chalio has his guys waiting for the truck and they start splitting the pallets while the driver's setting the outriggers. Without a word said, the pallets get split down to safe weights for the horizontal distance. Ronnie (the boom driver) says nobody else does this without being told and then it's begrudgingly.
This morning we went over and I introduced her to Chalio and I could see her concern wash away. That's when she told me the driver's story.
I went back around lunch to deliver the flashings for the job, and found out her neighbor's roof had gotten a layover when it was supposed to be a tearoff/reshingle. She said about 10 guys showed up at 8am and were gone by noon on a 20+ sq job. The owner wasn't home and didn't realize he'd been had until the insurance adjuster came back and climbed up and lifted shingles. Apparently, this kind of thing is common.
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I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
her neighbor who got 5 bids (all unsolicited)
We had a bad hail storm down in TX last summer and I didn't know there were that many roofers in the state of Texas! I must have answered the door 6 times a day regarding the roof.
My roof was only about two years old and it had some minor damage but not real serious stuff, trees protected it I guess.
We're selling the house(closing next week) and the new HO asked for about 25 - 50 shingles to be replaced, that's all they wanted. I hired a local contractor to do it for $500 and I'm glad to get someone to crawl up there in the heat and change the 50 shingles, myself I'd rather re-roof the entire house then try and pry up those damn shingles up in this heat.
My house is 33 square and I was getting unsolicited bids to do a tear off, repaper, and shingle with a 25 year shingle for $2700! How the hell could anybody do it for that much and still make anything.
I saw houses in the hood with similar size roofs get tore off, papered and shingled in one day, those guys were moving so fast it was making me dizzy watching them!
Doug
How the hell could anybody do it for that much and still make anything.
They can't. But they can take a 50% deposit and do nothing and clean up pretty well.
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I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
you should see what is happening here like it was trend....
tear off to completion...
one day...
and that's roofs getting up to and just over 30SQ....
including clean up of sorts...
in done and gone before the inspector even knows they were there...
of course no new edge or flashing felt and to listen to the guns.. 4 hits max..
often only 3...
and the classic.....
what's a permit???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Your $5000 policy is pretty much on the money for roofing. $10000 is more close to commercial. There is a company here that does commercial and they pay (according to the senior project manager) $13000 a year.
Whats really gonna kick your but is the Comp. if it is required where you live.
I do feel your pain though. It was the same thing here when Rita hit 2 years ago. Roofers looked like ants crawling around on the mound. In most cases they did more harm than good
do a few 4 in 12 roofs and come back and tell me how easy it was, Your back will be killing you bent over like that after a few hours, You cant sit cause your going to fast and if you kneel your knees will hurt, I know it looks and sounds easy but its not, Stay with the flooring if thats going good.
Your back will be killing you bent over like that after a few hours, You cant sit cause your going to fast and if you kneel your knees will hurt,
Sounds like roofing low pitched stuff. He's probably in shape for that. Lugging bundles in the hot sun or getting it dried in before dark after you uncovered a can of worms about 3pm you weren't counting on is the hard part.
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I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
Ya, the discovery of the great unknowns later in the day with a 30% chance of a thunderstorm in the forecast that night.
I had a 5 day rainfree forecast and it was a whoopee deal with no concern of tarps and could leave some tools amd lights out.
Roofing in Seattle must be rough.
be feeling better when the pressures off. "I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived."- Thoreau