Over the years I’ve read a few references to windows people have built. I’m hoping if I start a thread, other folks will post their photos and maybe we can get a discussion started.
These are some windows I built for our new house. They’ve been in about 2 years now. I have been waiting until I finish sanded and put a fresh coat of Watco on them to photograph them, but I don’t think that’s gonna be anytime soon. So this morning I got a wild hair, swept off some of the drywall dust and cobwebs and shot these pics.
Bad lighting, distracting backgrounds, dirty glass, I know. Like I said, just trying to get a thread started. So here’s some of mine. Post some of yours, please? Not a lot of info out there on window building. Let’s share what we know.
Replies
These shots are of a double casement. I like these for certain shapes, in bedrooms, batrooms, this one in a kitchen.
Have to be careful using these in bedrooms though, egress can be tight because the hardware pulls the sash into the opening.
I like this casement/fixed/casement unit for larger rectangular openings. These are in the living room. There are two units alike, with about 4 feet of wall between them. Really bring the outdoors in.
Sometimes awning windows are just right when you want to utilize the wall below the windows, or have a little more privacy, like in a bedroom. These will be trimmed out as a single unit.
Edited 2/6/2005 12:04 am ET by jim blodgett
Jim, it's nice. I don't know how to build windows, yet so I bow my hat to you.
Does Kathy know you are taking so long?
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Yeah (snicker, chortle). It's a double edged sword, man. We work on the house for a while, then have to go make some money to pay for the next phase. You know.
But hey, we only got started on this project in...I think it was '97 or '98.
Man, that hurts, seeing that in print.
The worst of it is, I DO know.
We have a room upstairs that was never included in the heating plan. There is a vent outside the bedroom door, in the hall. Big deal.
When my sister lived up there, I could care less (The house has been ours since 1950). The daughter who lived in the room complained, but she was SO glad to have her own room ......
My son bi**ched like mad.
Tore out the lath & plaster. Sistered the 2x3 to 2x7 (nominal) & installed R28 in the pony wall, R40 in his ceiling and above our bedroom.
Installed 2 new circuts (kids nowadays need more than 1 plug in a room).
Got the drywall in, trimmed most of the room, got it painted.
STILL have not trimmed his windows, stool, etc.
Wife after me, I say "The kid won't help". She says "He never started the job".
Sigh.
I know what you mean.
You and I have been married too long. Nothing to do on a Saturday night but sit on the computer.Quality repairs for your home.Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
Edited 2/6/2005 1:09 am ET by AaronRosenthal
I had to go to the way back machine for these photos. Up until the 80's you couldn't buy special shapes and archtops from window manufacturers. They often had to be custom built. The house called the "Four Waves" was torn down. Apparently the owner fell on tough times, divorce, etc. The house sat empty until someone bought it for the land. One of the guys that worked on the demolition said, they backed up a dump truck and rolled the copper roofing right in for recycling. I worked for the Architectural shop that built a bunch of odd shaped windows for this house. The teardrops were mahogany and teak.
The timberframe was one of the first homes I built when I started in business. A pair of archtops, front and back as well as the door system were custom built.
I also worked for Duratherm windows, they were a division of an Architectural shop where I worked as a cabinetmaker. We would help out in the window division when things were slow. The windows are available in all kinds of species but mahogany and teak with bronze cladding were the norm back then. http://www.durathermwindow.com/index.html
One thing I have seen over the years, is that some builders don't realize there is a top and bottom to the double pane sealed glass. On the bottom, the panes are square, if you put the top down, the glass will slip over time and break the seal. I have a job with some casement windows that need to be replaced because of this, soon as we get some warm days. Large casements also have a tendency to sag eventually.
I remember years ago when the John Hancock building was built in Boston, the large panes of glass were falling right out of their frames and crashing to the ground. A local liquidator had many of the panes for sale as they were replaced. Those things were 8' x 20' thick and heavy. The wind movement and pressures on the sky scraper would pop the panes out. Lucky nobody was killed. They had to rope off a large section around the building until the problem was solved. I bet someone's head rolled on that one.
Sorry about the size dial-uppers. I'm having trouble with scanned pictures. Maybe someone can help downsize.
I split the one with 2 images into 2 pics and reduced the other to 800x600. I didn't want to reduce it's size any further because the article might not be readable.
SamT
hammer... one of my customers ( now long deceased ) bought one of the John Hancock units and used it sideways for his picture window looking over Narragansett Bay....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That looks great, Hammer. I've never tried to build an arched or curved window or sash. I'd welcome the challenge if a design called for it, but my tastes are far simpler...flat, rectangular, straight lines...almost Shaker like.
Is that one in the post and beam house true divided, Hammer? Stopped in glass? Or glazing putty? Or what? Those mullions (is that the right term?) that divide the lites are mighty thin (which I think looks great). Are those double glazed thermal units? There are plenty of single glazed sash still in homes around here and a couple times a year someone asks me if they can be reglazed with thermal units. Sometimes it can be done, but the thickness of the thermal divider can look bad, which forces a wider mullion between divided lites, which can get pretty bulky looking. I really like the delicate lines single glazing allows.
That's the first I've heard that thermal units have a top and bottom. I'm going to check next time I order some, but I think that might not be the case here in the Pacific Northwest. Do you mean the corners of the unit are rounded, or the edge of each pane of glass is a little rounded? I usually block beneath the glazing anyway to avoid that "slide" I sometimes see when I take old units apart.
I've built a few windows, both double-hung and casements.
Unfortunately, it never occured to me to photograph my work 'til just recently, after I started hanging out here.
What did you use for hardware on those casements? They look real nice.
And its nice to see another carp's house in an unfinished stage.
I've been working on mine since '86,with slow ( sometimes VERY slow ) progress, and now it looks like we may be selling this year.
Boy, do I have a lot of work to do to get ready.
The big arches and the teardrops were double pane, (thermopane). The grills on the arches are applied. For the teardrops I made a pattern out of cardboard, today we would use foam board, and had a glazing company make the glass. Next time you have some insulated glass, put a square on the edges. You will find that the two panes of glass are perfectly aligned on one end but likely not on the other. It's hard for the manufacturers to get them to line up perfectly all around. It is also typical to use a couple of short pieces of hard, thin rubber to support each end of the glazing. This keeps the glass from sitting directly on the wood sash, which may contribute to pressure on one piece of glass, causing a break in the seal, as you said. The edges are square, not rounded.Some of the Duratherm windows were wrapped in a neoprene gasket around the edge. This fit tightly into the sash and required no glazing compound. When we made replacement windows for some of the State Houses around New England and places like Faneuil Hall, they were true divided lights. The thermopane glass was set in the traditional way, bedding compound and putty knife glazing compound. The stickings were heavier to accomodate the insulated glass but still looked good on the large windowsAnderson used to make welded glass. The two pieces were melted into one around the perimeter. Most use an aluminum channel now with the glass sealed by an epoxy like substance. The space between the glass can have some suspended sheets of invisible material and are often filled with Argon or other gasses. On some tinted glass you should remove the labels soon after installation, the sun can discolor the area. Methods and materials have greatly improved over the years but there was a time when insulated glass panels didn't last too long.How did you weather strip your windows? Can you post a picture of the details and list a source of supply. Did you use Truth hardware or another brand? Self stick or kerfed in stripping?
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
(and Shep)
I never heard of Truth Hardware until a couple years ago when (I think it was) Calvin said something about them. I think I first saw them in a Blaine catalog. Still haven't used it, but it looks good on paper.
Out here Whitco hardware is by far the most common. Comes in several sizes. The longer ones, like 20" or more" are quite a bit wider/heavier...they have really accurate info on their website, sash weight charts and such.
Anyways, this hardware can be used for awning, hopper, or casement windows. Has a nice smooth action and nice hold open tension. I have some pretty heavy awnings...maybe 36 x 24 insulated units...in the house we live in now that I built in the early 80s that still operate and hold open beautifully. Another great thing about this Whitco hardware is it opens WAY past 90 degrees, almost like a tilt sash, so you can easilly clean the outside of the window from inside the room. Comes in a couple different finishes. Inexpensive. Can't say enough good things about them. Great hardware.
The weatherstripping on this house was a big jump for me, Hammer. I have always used stick on foam weatherstripping but this time took the plunge and ordered a kerfed in flipper type silicone weatherstrip from Resource Conservation Technologies. They have a wide range of flipper and bulb type. I like it a lot, but haven't lived with it yet, so longevity might be an issue. Have you used them? I MIGHT have a couple photos of the kerfed jamb, I'll have to dig through those negatives.
I did find a couple shots of a Whitco hinge. I usually attach the hinges to the sash first, but must have been thinking about the photograph more than the work when I shot these. Anyway, all you need is a simple rabbet on each edge of the sash - I think maybe 15/16" for the lighter duty hinges, 1+1/8" for the heavier ones? Something like that.
thanks
I gotta write that down somewhere I can remember.
Thanks for the information, Jim. No need to dig through old negatives, I'm sure I can find what I need from the companies you listed. I'll be needing some new weather stripping when I replace the glass in the casements. I haven't needed anything in the weather strip department for quite a while. Your info will save me some searching, thanks.Truth was a common casement hardware manufacturer. The sash can be easily removed, you just press down on the operating arm to hit a slot and the pivot hinges are on a slide. The windows I'm replacing are Weathershield's 1982? The company was obviously aware of a problem with the double pane glass, they have a good retro fit replacement. The old ones had a vinyl glazing bead but the replacements are aluminum. The glass is thicker and the new glazing bead is sized to fit. Vinyl just doesn't stand up over time. I think you made a good choice with the kerfed silicone. Stick on seems to get un-stuck if the window stays closed for long. Your windows look great, Ciao.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Lets see if I can get this scan to post..
I made these about 15 yrs. ago..wow..that long. True divided lite ,insul.glass, VG Doug.fir. They were to match the french doors below which I did not make.
One job of many for this customer..he was pleased, I actually made out better than I thought I would. Working from my full size drawings really sped up the process.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"I've..seen all good people turn thier heads, so, satisfied, I am on my way.."They kill prophets for profits"..And, that's...the truth.........phhatt
Looks great, Sphere. Do any of those open? I built a pair of angled top windows to serve as egress windows for the upstairs bedrooms in the house we now live in and had a heck of a time trying to figure out how to use casement hardware on them so they'd open. Finally resorted to butt hinges. Work okay, but don't have any "hold open" ability.
From the photo you posted those top lites could have come right out of the millwork shop that made the doors. Nice work.
Thanks Jim, not near as special as some of the others posted here. Those were my first stab at fenestration..As I said , a lot easier than I thought. They are a simple half lapped muntin and mullion with double stops that are just quarter rounds bradded in place and glued one side. All Mortice and tenon tho'.The door company (Peachtree , IIRC) couldn't provide anything at his price limits..No, they don't open (thank God he didn't ask for that), but in the yrs since I have made a bunch of odd-ball windows that are operable..just never had the camera or I have lost the pics when my portfolio got stolen. More to come in next few yrs. I got THIS place to deal with...LOL.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"I've..seen all good people turn thier heads, so, satisfied, I am on my way.."They kill prophets for profits"..And, that's...the truth.........phhatt
You need operable windows there? <G>PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Either that or a bunch of stickers, "In case of fire, break glass".
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"I've..seen all good people turn thier heads, so, satisfied, I am on my way.."They kill prophets for profits"..And, that's...the truth.........phhatt
I was thinkin' ventilation, not egress.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
oh...well..gotta let the bugs out ya know. Actualy, the birds. They are a pain when they get in..drives the cats bonkers.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"I've..seen all good people turn thier heads, so, satisfied, I am on my way.."They kill prophets for profits"..And, that's...the truth.........phhatt
Here's our digs:
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
tom... nice..
what's the siding .... aluminum ... copper ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thank you. Siding's copper. Which is what the windows will be clad with when I get around to dealing with the leaky seal situation.
Not the bath window, that's a panel I made up. Cutting used glass into an inside corner wasn't easy. Woodworking was straightforward.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thant's some looking place, Tom. That photo of the wall with the reflection of trees in the glass, then shadows above on the wall is really a great shot.
Got any more pictures? Is that an earth sheltered house? Any of those windows open?
Thank you, Jim. You saw the weeds popping over the edge of the roof? 2' of dirt up there, a big part of our heating/cooling system.
Bath window swings in. The only other operable was an identical one in the br. We use a ventilation air system that I find much better than operable windows, cheaper too. The rectangular (originally) sealed lites are low e. The arched small ones above them are more recycled glass, not sealed lites. Very small budget (no mortgage) going into this place.
You noticed our reflected winter view. It is nice up here. No yard, those trees are just off the patio. Original design was for this to convert to my furniture shop after I finished the "real" house. Helps to have something inspirational for the clients to open the check book.
Here're a couple more:PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Awesome, man. More! More!
How much floor space in there,Tom? Love those steel flat trusses. Great scale to the place.
Come on, man, show us some more. That front door...sweet.
Must be in Virginia, huh? Where?
It's really a simple little bent box. Back wall has the same curve as the front wall, other wise the bar joists would have been a nightmare. The door on the side wall is actually a door in a door. The larger one, an inverted U is a little over 6'x8'. Inner door, like the front one, is 4'x7½'. Not exactly a big box item. Glass panels are std sliding door lites. The large door accomodates my small tractor. The combined doors are kinda heavy. Ballbearing hinges work fine.
1600 sq ft, but 20,000 cu ft. High ceilings for a shop. My wife knew I was nuts to build anything like this (my first house) but after a few years here she wants pretty much the same thing with a few added attractions. Sound-isolated office, guest suite, indoor lap pool, garage, that sort of thing. New house is out of the ground, barely. Hoping to make large progress this summer. It'll share septic and water with this place. Has a better view, sunsets over the Blue Ridge. Lights of the local ski run at night.
We're outside Charlottesville, under the "e" of Israel Mountain here: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=17&n=4206494&e=702713&layer=DRG25
There's been a change of plan though. A rental agent friend was horrified that I'd use this as a shop. Clued us in to what rent we could expect. Floored me. So now I'm looking to build another shop a little further down the mountain, annexed to my lumber drying/storage building I'm currently putting a copper roof on. Shop'll be underground, no point in building something needing heat.
Couple more pix. The dresser lacks the top carcases and a toekick but it kinda fun with the hickory and walnut pulls, both harvested here. DW loves plastic laminate and couldn't make up her mind in the bath.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm w/jim on this one
I'd like to know more about those "metal trusses"
What kinda of span,depth and o.c. spacing?
Are they cheaper than wood trusses?
Hi Butch,
I really am flattered. This is beefed up standard commercial construction. We have a 30' span, engineered for 240 tons total. These bar joists are 2' tall 22" oc. Built a similar client house with a 40' clear span, good for 300 tons. That was 2000 sq ft and cost $8400, delivered, a couple of yrs ago.
The crane guy had never seen anybody use such large steel residentially and was pumping me. Those were 600 lbs ea, 17" oc. When I told him, and the driver who was equally curious, what they cost, he about fell over. Struck him as cheap. Me too. If we weren't planning for all that dirt overhead we'd have been able to get by with half or fewer joists. Clearly the labor for installation is minimal. Decking is shot to the joists. I've never used wood trusses, don't know their cost.
My bar joists were only a couple hundred pounds each. We moved and set them from cables stretched between the trees here, no crane.
Commercial buildings aren't built this way for high costs. I go one step further with the dirt, which is the heating/cooling system and also makes for a forever roof. What really tickled both me and my client was the appraisal coming in so high. The appraiser ignored all energy features and the lack of any exterior maintenance (copper siding and copper clad windows) and focused on details and sq ft.
For a furniture maker dabbling in construction, came out pretty good. Client obviously knew me and our place before risking his money. As I'm not, he was the GC.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, is that corrugated on top of the joists and then a layer of concrete? (before the dirt)jt8
Our lives improve only when we take chances -- and the first and most difficult risk we can take is to be honest with ourselves. -- Walter Anderson
Yup.
Concrete, 6mil plastic, protected with carpet scraps, 1' dirt, 6mil and insulation umbrella, top 1' dirt. Works like a dream.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Alright Tom! Guess I am going to have to make a minor detour the next time I go to Richmond. Just need to know where to turn off of 29. Do to the price of gas I have had to change from a week there and a week here to a month here and a month there. So it will be around the first of May before I will be going to Richmond. Hopefully I will get more done at each place do to the longer stay.
At this house in Floyd County I replaced the wood in the frame of one of the windows last summer. Still have 6 more to go. The sills have rotted out in all of these windows. I started out redoing the one that the sliding glass door replaced. When I got it done all I had to do was slide the old one out in the master bedroom and slide (more or less) the "new" one in. Having used that first one for learning on I know of many things that I will do different. The walls are made of cinder block and as I was sitting here typing this I figured out how to anchor them to the wall. That first one isn't anchored. It is more or less wedged in there. Still works though.
At the house in Richmond I will have to replace the wood in all of the windows, including the sashes. The sashes have the rope, pulley and weight system for opening them, with a simple locking device to keep them open. Due to the historic value of the house I am going to keep and reuse the panes. They are blown glass then flattened. The kind that has air bubbles in it. I am going to have to find a place that sells this kind of glass as well.
Some of the terminology that has been used in this thread I am not familiar with. One is the usage of the word LITE as it pertains to windows.
I'll get some pictures of the windows of this house and some other things that I am working on here.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Mornin' Dane, take a look at your Va map. Batesville is SW of C'vlle. We're between there and 29 on the oldest road in this area. Used to connect Scottsville, on the James R., and Staunton, before there was a C'vlle. Let me know when. I've got a bunch of tractor driving coming up.
Lites are individual panes, insulated or not. When you come, remind me to see if I have any old glass stashed here. It's something to always save. One of the local glass companies, C'vlle Glass, usually has some. There are a great many places here where it's appropriate. I've spent a lot of time with an 18th c. place and its windows. When it needed glass I'd stock up from C'vlle Glass.
I trust you're using a better species for your replacement sills? Walnut is my usual choice. Paints well. You presumably know that any wood next to masonry is code-required to be PT. There's a reason for that. I hate the stuff so only used it for shims between my concrete walls and oak frames.
Those old sashes can be repaired, perhaps replacing a piece or two. The challenge is duplicating the molding, but there're several ways to accomplish that. If you need a lot, Bechstoffers Inc. in Richmond 644-4081 is an old-fashioned millworks that likely would already have the shaper cutters required. Several yrs ago I foolishly passed up an opportunity to own an ancient 4 head molder that came with easily $20k worth of vintage cutters. Didn't have a building at the time. But at least I still have all my fingers. <G> PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Oh oh! I am going to have to pull that first window back out and completely redo it. I did it all in pine. The sill is resting on concrete and the header was poured in after they set the windows. So the header is actually formed around the top part of the frame of the window. I am not liking the idea of using PT for the frame. I would have to paint it instead of staining it on the inside. For the blocking along the sides it would be alright. Well I am learning.
The plan is to go to Richmond somewhere around the 1st of May and work for a month there, then come back here.
You said tractor driving. Is that antique tractors? I have a 1948 Leroy construction tractor that some day I hope to restore.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Your pine will last for awhile, quite awhile if it was heartpine. I try to avoid practice with these type of things and use material that won't need replacement anytime soon. You might want to acquire a copy of either USDA's "WOOD: handbook" or R. Bruce Hoadley's "Understanding Wood" from Taunton Press ISBN 0-918804-05-1. The latter deals with almost everything you'd want to know about wood. The former has information on more species.
Tractor today and tomorrow is not particularly old, about 20 yrs, compact utility with hoe. Planting trees today. Tomorrow we're transplanting 9' tall boxwoods from a grove of 200 or so. Sell a few every now and then. After that is roadbuilding with one of my Cats from the '60s.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
thanks for the thread and picts, Jim - - I've renovated a lot of windows over the years, and my last attempts even turned out pretty well - - last year I began a project for my house involving a fixed picture windo (6 pane) flanked by a casement on either side - got stalled by real life, but the sash have resurfaced and it's time to pick back up...
do you have a trusted source for your casement hardware? - - from googling, it appears that 'Truth' and 'Whitco' sell thru distributers of which there seem to be many...
could you elaborate on the detail at the bottom of the window/sash where the operater hardware resides? clearances and such? tips?
what about hinges? from your supplier also?
thanks, DOUD
I have a catalog from Blaine Window Hardware Inc, Doud, but I've never bought anything from them. http://www.blainewindow.com. I'm pretty sure it was Calvin who turned me onto them a couple years ago when I was looking for latching hardware. They sell all types of hardware you might use, including Truth casement hardware. I've never used Truth, so I can't vouch for it, but it looks good and I don't doubt what anyone else says in it's favor.
Did you go to http://www.vincentwhitney.com? That's who makes Whitco hinges, which I HAVE used extensively (maybe 50 or 60 trouble free windows by now) and DO vouch for every chance I get. So does everyone else I know who builds windows here on the West coast. I could be mistaken, but I am almost positive that I bought directly from them last time I ordered a bunch of hinges. Did you talk to them?
If they won't sell to you for some reason, Builder's Hardware and Supply Co. (800) 999-5158 will. They keep a pretty decent stock of Whitco hinges on hand and can get them within a few days if they happen to be out. But check with Whitney first. The more I think about it, the more certain I am that we ordered directly from them this last time.
I don't use an operating rod with my casements. The hinges hold open at whatever position you open them to and I like the sleek look without the crank. Simpler to build, too. For Whitco hinges I allow a strong 1/8" all the way around between sash and jamb and cut a rabbet into the top and bottom edges (on the sides for awning windows) of the sash for the hinge...I'm thinking it's about 1/4, maybe 5/16" deep. There are exact clearance dimensions clearly noted on the bok each pair of hinges come in. Too cold tonight to pad out to the shop in my jammys but I can check in the morning.
Anyone have a source for roller screens that can be incorporated into the window frames?
That might be nice. Did you Google them?
Yep, came up with everything but what I am looking for. I saw these built into windows made by http://www.architecturaltraditions.com at a trade show. I am in the midst of creating a set of working drawings and soon a prototype for windows I intend to make for my house. I thought it would be nice to incorporate roller screens into the casements and double hungs.BTW, have you built any double hungs? I am trying to figure out the best place to incorporate weather stripping. I've been looking at the stuff sold by Resource Conservation.
I've never built double hungs, pino. Really don't see any advantages to them over awnings and casement unless you want the look.
I've had pretty good luck installing screens on cabinet hinges on the inside of awnings and casement. You do loose a little visibility through the screen, but we don't even notice that anymore. Here's a shot of a casement/fixed/casement window with screens on the inside. The casement units on each end have screens, the center section does not. I'm not sure if alluminum screens let more light through, but these are charcoal.
Coffee break I'll try to find a couple more of this configuration that are better photos; we have a few of these in the house we now live in.
Tell us more about your windows. How many? What type? Can you post a drawing or two? Love to see what other folks do. You figure out how your going to build your jambs yet?
I am replacing 90 year old windows that are beyond repair, thus the double hungs. We have a series of double hungs and casements so I will be making both, 38 in all to be exact. For only being 1900 sq. feet, this old house has got a lot of windows.As for screens, I too am considering interior screens, at least on the casements. But the option to remove the screens from sight when the windows are closed has me intrigued, hence the interest in the roll up type.As far as drawings, I am in the preliminary stages right now. Being just a HO this will be quite an undertaking for me. I have access to a very substantial wood working shop but may upgrade my own for this task,Right now, I am dissecting an old double hung my dad saved from his house, trying to reconstruct the way they used to be made. I plan on picking up an off-spec new window as well and doing the same before completing any drawings.My biggest challenge from a design aspect is figuring out where to place the weatherstriping on the double hungs. My wife and I both want single glazed, true divided light sash with M&T muntins. The double hungs will be weight and pulley, not spring balanced. I am thinking about using a combination of copper where the sash rides between the stops and parting strip, and brush-type weather stripping let into the stops. I just received a catalog of sorts from Resource Conservation Technologies, so I'll be ordering some samples soon.Anybody have a good source for old growth, reclaimed VG Doug Fir? The original windows appear to be made from this wood, so I am guessing I will do the same. This should make it a bit easier to match to the interior trim, which is all shellaced.BTW, you have any experience with Phelps brass hardware? They have an oil rubbed brass finish available on all their hardware that appeals us.
Edited 2/14/2005 8:08 pm ET by pino
I'm not a big fan of double hung windows. They were a simple to operate, easy to build, inexpensive design in the days before inexpensive hardware became readilly available, but getting them to seal effectively against drafts has historically been a challenge. Now we think of them nostagically. But I'll take casements anyday. And awning windows can be hard to take visually, but they can be left open in the rain.
I called Phelps for prices a few years ago. Really liked the looks of their hardware and they were very knowledgable. And expensive. I'm not saying their stuff isn't worth it. It must be, or they wouldn't sell enough, right? But dang, that stuff was expensive.
As far as oil rubbed bronze goes, that's a fairly standard finish for architectural hardware, pino. You should be able to get just about anything you want in that finish from several companies.
Did you say "old growth VG Douglas Fir" (have to bow my head when I say that)? If you get stuck for a supply, I have a bunch of it. It'd probably be expensive to have it shipped, but I have plenty that I'd sell you at a reasonable price. Check around at architectural lumber suppliers in your area. Should be easy enough to find in any industrial city or agricultural hub.
Edited 2/14/2005 8:46 pm ET by jim blodgett
I agree with you on the ineffectiveness of sealing out drafts on double hungs, but we are trying to keep our restoration somewhat accurate.As far as the oil rubbed bronze look, I thought I checked with Whitco and they didn't offer that finish. Like I said, I am just an HO so I am not familiar with architectural hardware companies, especially ones making the pulleys used in double hungs. If you have any recommendations I would be much obliged.Now, about that old growth VG Doug Fir. I'm in Chicago and have yet to find a local supplier of old growth stuff, although I confess I haven't tried too hard. Again, as an HO I am not tapped into the supply chain knowledge that others might have. That said, if I can't find a local supplier I will give you a shout. I am hoping to get started sometime early this summer, right after I sister up some joists, pour a new basement floor and bury my utilities.Did I mention I have about 600 rock faced CMUs to make with an antique machine as well? I have my work and play cut out for me, but I'll let you know on that wood when I get closer.BTW, when I get drawings completed for my prototype windows I'll post 'em. I would appreciate a review of my design and construction from someone that knows what they are doing.Thanks for your input so far.
Yeah. You got me there. I don't think Whitco hinges come in oil rubbed bronze. And here I am always talking them up.
But what I guess I meant to say was virtually any handles, knobs, latches should be available in that. And now that I think about it a second, I might rather take even THAT back. Maybe it's far less common in authentic restoration hardware. Maybe it's a "modern" type finish? My tastes run that way, so that's what I generally end up buying, so maybe I spoke too soon, pino. My apologies.
Now I gotta go look in my Restoration Hardware and Blaine Window catalogs. Ahhhh, THAT sounds like an enjoyable winter evening! Just might get lost in those things...
Keep calling around. It's inconcievable to me you wouldn't be able to find VG Fir (have to bow my head when I say that) in a city that size. Try asking at any door, or millwork company. Maybe take a box of doughnuts with you.
Good timing for this thread. I just installed this one last week and got a picture today. It's the first window I have built from scratch, so to speak. My customers wanted to match their new entry way door. (There is one more window that you can see in the upper corner that will be the next to go). They had a local artist etch a design into the glass and wanted a special frame to show it off. Unfortunately the design didn't show up well in the photo.
Nice, man. Matches that door beautifully. I'm guessing that's under a protective roof of some type, huh? You use a hold open rod to keep the wind from whipping that casement around on those butt hinges? You use NRPed butt hinges? Build a screen for the inside yet? Or don't you have a problem with flying critters there?
Yeah, the entry way is under a covered porch so there is no exposure to the elements. Yes, NRP hinges. Don't want any BIG "critters" getting in without a key. The casement has a retro style hold open rod that I got from an online place - Kilian Hardware, I think. I got several good leads for window hardware from posters here a few months back. No screen. The owners didn't want the screen to block the view of the art glass from the inside. They may change their mind when warmer weather and more critters come around, though.
Came across this thread tonight, and thought I'd post a few photos of my modest efforts.
I'm in the process of re-creating the 11 missing windows for my 1830s upstate New York house. Eight original windows are still in place, so I am replicating the design and construction as exactly as I can.
Photos:
1. I carefully ground knives for my shaper head to match the orginal muntin profile.
2. Newly-built prototype: dovetailed meeting rail joinery, mortised bottom rail.
3. Interior view, sash installed. Interior trim not installed yet.
4. Exterior view.
RE: Previous post. I forgot to mention that's all 19th-century cylinder glass for the panes. Also, I see those photos are quite small. Here's larger version that shows the closegrained heartwood I used for the bottom rails (gleaned from a pile of 2x4s at Home Depot, believe it or not):
Very nice. The reflections in the glass showed what you'd used.
I was relieved when you mentioned the wood. It looked a little like sycamore flecks.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Nice, Allen. Ain't life grand?
Are you using counterweights? Couldn't really tell from the photos. What kind of glue you using for your sash?
Hey, are those black and white photos?
When you say "upstate New York", where do you mean?
Jim:
No counterweights. No parting bead either. This is the kitchen wing of the house ... very simple. 1838. Just sash against sash. In the summer I put a half-screen under the lower sash. The lower sash doesn't weigh much -- those panes are only 7 x 9 inches -- so it doesn't take a whole lot of strenght to lift it.
In the "fancier" part of the house, the original windows have sort of a "spring" mechanism, with a little knob that protrudes. Push it in, lift the sash to one of several positions that are knotched in the side of the sash, and it says in place. No sash weights. Very simple. The sash are a bit thicker than those in the kitchen wing, and there's a parting bead (vertical) between the upper and lower sash.
If I had been 100 percent authentic, I would have pegged the joinery (no glue). But I used Titebond II, and no pegs. The windows (I made two this size) have been in use for 3 years. No problems so far.
Location is Orleans County, New York. West of Rochester, northeast of Buffalo.
Allen
Jim:
Yes, those were black and white photos. Smaller file size, and that's how I had the pictures scanned and saved here at my office computer.
Also, the "spring" mechanisms I mentioned are NOT the through-the-stile spring-loaded metal pins that one often finds in mid-19th century windows. Rather, a heavy-gauge wire that runs vertically between the sash and the frame, then takes right angle inward, where you can push it in to reposition the sash, and it springs back into one of several notches to hold the sash.
I've seen it in only one other house, an 1830 house five miles away.
Thanks for the comments!
Allen
Very nice work, especially on the homemade knives. Did you remake just the sash to instal into original frames with weights or are these complete units?
Pino:
The pictured kitchen window replaced an inappropriately scaled modern window from the 1980s. So it's completely re-framed. I matched the size and trim details of two original windows in the same wing of the house.
The sash from those original windows were also replaced, so I will be building four sash for those locations, also. Fortunately, those 1980s replacement windows were sized for the original openings, and all the trimwork is original. Paint lines showed the size of the original sash (nine-over-six, 7 x 9 inch panes).
Then for other parts of the house, there's a number of 6-over-6 windows I'll be constructing. At this point, all the muntins are shaped, and the rest of the stock is ready to be shaped. And I've collected enough antique glass, so hopefully this project will move along.
Thanks for the feedback!
Allen
Pino:I found a few photos on my computer that will put my window project in context.1. "Before" shot of kitchen wing2. Current appearance of kitchen wing. Still a couple of windows to replace, steps to build, shutters to make, wood shingle roof to install. And the door (home-built, too) will be set deeper into the wall ... currently still an interior wall and cabinets behind it.3. A c.1912 photo of the house (kitchen wing is partially visible to the rear).Good luck with your projects!Allen
Man! Look at the corner boards in "oldphoto"! Great looking project, Allen.
Came back to add that I when I read your reply descibing the wire devices that hold your double hungs open, I felt a little tickle back in some corner of my memory. I think I've seen similar wires to the ones you descibed. For the life of me I can't put it together, but our familly goes back several generation up on Lake Ontario (Cape Vincent) and I want to say it was from the part of my life I lived up there.
Anyway, looks like you have a great project on your hands there, and you're doing some interesting work on it. Keep posting those photos, will you? We don't get nearly enough people here discussing that type of stuff.
Edited 2/15/2005 11:26 pm ET by jim blodgett
Jim, not too many Greek Revivals with robust pilasters out there on the west coast, eh?I saw some comparably old buildings in Monterey, Calif. when I ran the Big Sur Marathon a couple years ago. Not exactly Greek Revival, though. "Western Reserve" maybe?AllenOk, I'm editing to add that I'll start another thread within a few weeks to post more photos of various facets of the entire project ... so far. Thanks for the interest.
Edited 2/15/2005 11:44 pm ET by Allen
tip 'o the hat, Allen - nice work...
"there's enough for everyone"
hey Jim - rainy morning so I cleaned shop a bit and found the window project where I left it last fall - -
I want build two of these assemblies - fixed picture window in the middle, casement to either side - the sash are 1-3/4" thick, casements ~44"X20", picture ~44"X58" - -
I've got 1-3/4" walnut to use for the frames and wonder how to detail - - figure to rabbet the walnut to accept the windom frames - about 5/8" deep? But I'm gonna need more depth than that at the bottoms of the casements, for the hardware, right? To keep things lined up, I'll shorten the casement frames by the amount of the hardware?
do you have a reccomendation on hardware? these casements will be fairly heavy - is there a rating on closures and such to look for?
anyone feel free to jump in here...
View Image
Just saw this, David, sorry.
I used to rabbet 2x material for jambs, but have recently switched to two layers of 1x, or 5/4 stock instead. That allows me to use narrower stock, which of course is easier to find than wider, and looks the same when done.
So let's say the jamb is for a 2x6 wall, with 1/2" drywall and 3/4" sheathing. If I were to rabbet that jamb I'd need 6+3/4" wide material, right? But if I stagger two pieces of 1x instead, with your 1+3/4" sash, plus 3/16" or so for weather stripping, I only need 4+13/16" material for the inner piece of the jamb to achieve the same look. Then I can use virtually any species for the outer piece of the jamb since I paint those anyway.
For casement windows, like the ones you describe, I use Whitco hardware. I would build the jamb (don't forget to put about 7 degree slope on the top of the bottom jamb to shed water) about 1/8, maybe 3/16" bigger than the sash in every direction. Then I would rabbet the top and bottom of the sash for the hinges. I don't remember right off hand, I think that rabbet is about 3/8" with a 3/16" reveal.
I've never used mecanical closers, like manufactured windows have, David. I like the simplicity of a latch or two, depending on the height of the sash and rely on the Whitco hardware to hold the sash open at whatever angle.
I just looked in my hard drive and couldn't find any photos of that staggered jamb but I know I have some. I'll try to dig them out and scan a couple in. We have company so it might be Sunday morning before I can get to it.
Great looking work bench, man. Nice vise. Free speech leads to a free society.
I've just reviewed the whole thread, should have done that before my previous post as some of my questions were addressed earlier -
the way I understand it, the window hardware you use is 'manual' - - no cranks; if you want to open the window you push on the sash, and the hinges have enough friction associated with them to hold the window as you position it (even in 40 mph wind?) - - what about screens? they would be in the way of operating the window, wouldn't they? - -
been perusing the Vincent Whitney site, and they have at least 4 series of hinges to consider - (X series, jumbo series, 100AW series, 200AW series) - what is your experience?
how do you size the hinges? - if I have a 20" sash, do I chose the biggest hinge that will fit? will a 16" hinge work correctly?
"there's enough for everyone"
Okay, now you got my curiosity up so I went out to the shop and grabbed an in-box pair of Whitco hinges off the shelf. These are labeled 12-X, so I think they must be 12" in the X series you asked about. I THINK I remember that once you get to the longer lengths, maybe 24" or something, they switch to "Jumbo" don't they? Haven't looked on their website in a couple years, but I do remember using 24" hinges a few years ago and they are a little thicker, wider, but essentially the same.
Our house is pretty well protected from strong winds by surrounding forrest, but I've never had any of these windows fly open or shut in what wind we do get. And some of the awning sash we have are pretty heavy - I think three in the bedroom are 48x30" double glazed and they stay where we put them even after 20 years.
In the new house we have some pretty big double casement windows, each sash is 24x60. That house takes a lot of wind and ocassionally one of those does get moved a few inches, but all in all, I don't consider it a worry, David.
Yes, screens are the most common objection people have to this type hardware. I mount screens on cabinet hinges. It's easy enough to open the screen to open or close the sash.
I used to have some good detail shots of the screen hardware an editor sent me but lost it in a computer meltdown. I'll try to get a few shots tomorrow, need to finish up a roll of film anyway. I must have already posted this photo in this thread, but just in case, here's a shot of a casement/fixed/casement unit in our living room. You can easilly see the screens. This window is right at the base of the stairs and gets used as much as any window in our house to control ventilation. These screens have held up remakably well over the past 20 years. Free speech leads to a free society.
would love to see some more detail on the screens - they look handsome and substantial in the pict - I'm guessing you run a full stop between the screen and casement? -
have you considered reducing the depth of the frame between the fixed and casement sash? potentually the frame would not have to be deeper than the screen - - dunno...i've been considering that and other factors as I mull different frame treatments in my mind -
"there's enough for everyone"
"would love to see some more detail on the screens - they look handsome and substantial in the pict - I'm guessing you run a full stop between the screen and casement? -"
Yes, that's exactly what I do. Before I started using barbed type weatherstripping I used a peel and stick foam type, stuck to the outside of that same stop, so it served both functions.
"have you considered reducing the depth of the frame between the fixed and casement sash? potentually the frame would not have to be deeper than the screen - - dunno...i've been considering that and other factors as I mull different frame treatments in my mind -"
That's funny you ask that. The one in our living room was the first I ever built this configuration. I really like it but thought those center verical stiles were too heavy. The window I'm going to try to shoot screen details of is in the entryway of the same house, is the same configuration, but has leaner center stiles (mullions?). Whatever they're called, I agree whole heartedly these are too heavy. Hey, we're all learning, right?Free speech leads to a free society.
Know the diff betwix a muntin and a mullion?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
Hail no. And I'd appreciate any memory device you use to remind yourself which is which. Crimony. I still have to stop and think about which is the "stile" (side) and which is the "rail".
Got a serious word/memory problem. Always have had. Probably why I went into the trades in the first place - it's mostly tangible.
How's the planning for our/your work party coming? Really looking forward to that.
Okay. David. Took some photos and I'm headed to get the film developed (okay, you can all roll your eyeballs and shake your heads now and mutter something about digital cameras). Should be back in a couple hours to post a couple (that's IF I set the flash right...and loaded the film the right way...and didn't underexpose...)
Free speech leads to a free society.
How's the plan?
SamT will be here any minute..we got plans.
Bourbon and lasers..Polaris, tobbacco, food, beer...same shid the Egyptens used...what more can we do?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
So what's the difference between a mullion and a muntin?Free speech leads to a free society.
Okay, let me know if you want more detail. I reduced the size of these. They scanned in way bigger/clearer.
This first one is a casement/fixed/casement with narrower center frames. I'm pretty sure this was the first one I ever built with staggered 1x jambs, instead of 2x.
The second one is the same window with one screen open.Free speech leads to a free society.
This is a shot of the latch. Casements get two, one top and bottom. Narrow awnings like in the next message only need one.
The second shot is from outside, showing the rabbet at the bottom of the sash - you can see where the hinge sits in this shot, too.Free speech leads to a free society.
This is a screen for a small awning, one of a pair under a larger fixed window. I used the same sash and screen hardware for these as on the casements.
The second one is a garden window over our kitchen sink. Basically the same casement/fixed/casement configuration but slightly wider fixed unit and small side lights the depth of the shelf. Always liked this window. Free speech leads to a free society.
thanks Jim - -
got the picts on the toolbar and will peruse them repeatedly over the next day or two - just the way I hafta work....
looks like the screen door is M&T, like a cabinet door frame? or maybe biscuited?- - how do you attach the screening? - hinges don't look like anything I've had experience with - what is the name for that style? I'm guessing they are sprung and hold the screens shut?-
I like the proportions on the sink window - the deep sill makes a large enough surface to be useful - is that an extra thick wall? - - looks like it would be inconvenient to operate the casements....
got some concerns about some details of the frame and the exterior - gonna think about it some more before commenting...you know I love ya, right? and I'll respect you in the morning? - - I'm lookin' hard at these assemblies, only way I know to account for all the details - always hate getting partway into a project before having the epiphany of the details...
regards, DOUD
"there's enough for everyone"
"looks like the screen door is M&T, like a cabinet door frame? or maybe biscuited?"
I think that little awning screen has a half lap joint. The casement screen in the entryway, two posts back, is dowelled. I have experimented with lots of joints. I'm pretty sure I remember screwing and plugging some screens, but can't say it with certainty. I was young and short sighted when I built these, but even the half lap joints have held up surprisingly well - thank Titebond for that. I even have a couple large awning sash with epoxied half lap joints still holding up well, but they are protected by a wide overhang and don't take any direct weather. Still, kind of surprised about how long they've lasted.
Nowdays I stick to what someone told me is a "bridle joint" for sash and screen, I think of it as through mortise&tennon. Simple enough to machine on a table saw and provides twice as much gluing surface. There are several photos of that back in this thread a ways.
I never had much luck with biscuits and sold my biscuit tool to Mr PITA a few years ago. I know a lot of folks swear by them but I had frequent misaligned slots and such.
"how do you attach the screening?"
I use a router to machine a groove (maybe 3/16"?) all the way around what will be the exterior face of the screen, then roll the screen down into that groove and roll screen gasket down on top of that. I'll post a closer shot of that open casement screen that shows that groove and the screen hinge a little better - photo has some funny distortion or camera jiggle but I think you'll see what I mean.
"hinges don't look like anything I've had experience with - what is the name for that style? I'm guessing they are sprung and hold the screens shut?-"
Those are what folks around here call "Mico hinges". They were commonly used on cabinet doors in the 50s before we all made the switch to European cup hinges. Mico is actually a brand name, but like "Kleenex" and "Skilsaw" that's what everyone calls them. They are spring loaded with hold open stops at 45 and 90 degrees. Cost maybe 1.50/pair(?) I had to modify one of each pair of these by cutting part of the mounting plate off and then, often, the screen spline groove ended up directly beneath one mounting screw hole, but they worked anyway.
Of course all this was before Home Depot or Al Gore invented the internet, so I had to ask people's opinions and try to explain what I needed to sales clerks, take stuff home and try it out, discover a flaw and modify this or that...nowdays we have a lot easier access to hardware and specifications for stuff so I'm sure you can find better hinges than what you see in these photos. In fact, I have a bag full of a different type cabinet hinge I intend to use on the screens for the new house. Just remember the hinge has to "kick" the screen in and out so it will open within the space between the mullions, or muntins, or jambs, whatever we decided that piece is called.
"I like the proportions on the sink window - the deep sill makes a large enough surface to be useful - is that an extra thick wall? - - looks like it would be inconvenient to operate the casements...."
I'll post a photo from the outside of that window that will answer both questions. But yes, that IS a pain to open and close from the inside. You could build one of these into any thickness wall, 2x4 framed even. In fact, this type window was real popular out here as far back as the 70s when I started framing houses in the tracts here. I think they are less popular now since everyone has switched from alluminum to vinyl windows, I'm not sure.
I still have to build the garden window for our new house. It's sliding up the to-do list pretty quickly, along with the back door and downstairs bathroom door. Probably within the next month or so.
"got some concerns about some details of the frame and the exterior - gonna think about it some more before commenting..."
When you get your finger on what's botherng you, please feel free to say something. No way you're gonna insult me. I have a lot to learn and am more than happy to toss ideas back and forth - that's what I enjoy about this forum, the different perspectives and ideas.
Gotta hit the bricks. Hey. Don't you have some trees to prune or band saw blades to sharpen or something?
Free speech leads to a free society.
OK - - thanks for the outside picture (nice Lunaria annua), I had missed the side glass - I'll throw out an feature I've seen in similar situations, and that's a 'well' instead of the shelf - the plants/containers fit down within, the pots are hidden, just the plants show - make a metal tray to fit and watering is eased...
anyway, my concern raised by the exterior picts is the detail at the bottom - it appears that the trim 'picture frames' the assembly and therefore there is a weak point where the bottom trim rail laps the window frame - wood movement would seem likely to open a crack there that would allow water to get behind the trim - 'normally' a window would have a sloped sill and drip edge to shed any water to the outside of the weather wall, yes? - -
a few more days and I'll finish dormant pruning - one hell of a mess of brush to clean up before I will be able to drag a sprayer thru the plantings - gonna be a busy spring - always is, of course, but this year there are two graduates to celebrate and we've about decided to have the open house for dad the same day (dad's in his 90th, and it's time to celebrate that too) - May 21 is gonna be a busy day with everyone we (and dad) know invited to the farm - have half a resolve to try to have one of these window assemblies installed in the blank, unfinished kitchen wall by then, but....
"there's enough for everyone"
Well geez, you can add another reason to celebrate, to that day.May twenty oneth is my birthday...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
"(nice Lunaria annua),"
Is that moss?
"a 'well' instead of the shelf - the plants/containers fit down within, the pots are hidden, just the plants show - make a metal tray to fit and watering is eased..."
I like that. Gonna have to give that some thought. A lot of the manufactured garden windows have a shelf or two to set more plants on, but a well makes a ton of sense.
"anyway, my concern raised by the exterior picts is the detail at the bottom - it appears that the trim 'picture frames' the assembly and therefore there is a weak point where the bottom trim rail laps the window frame - wood movement would seem likely to open a crack there that would allow water to get behind the trim - 'normally' a window would have a sloped sill and drip edge to shed any water to the outside of the weather wall, yes?"
Yes, you're right about that. I rip a 7 degree slope on the top edge of that exterior casing nowdays and take much better care to hold the jamb flush with the exterior plane of sheathing.
But you could use a more traditional bottom sill, such as you describe easilly enough if you thought water was going to be an issue. Free speech leads to a free society.
Hey guys, mind if I jump in? I may have already asked this in another thread, but I'll try here as well.Anybody know of a source for roll down screen assemblies? I am planning on building windows for our renovation and saw some custom wood windows with roll down screens. My wife doesn't want the view obscured by screens when the windows are closed, if she can avoid it. Here is a line drawing of something I saw from a custom window company, but they wouldn't divulge their source.
By all means, jump right in pino. Have you considered making some type rolling screen for yourself, maybe using pull down window shade type hardware as a starting point?
But I can't see where charcoal screen blocks any views. At least not to the point of distraction.
I've got to dust this thread off, it's a good one, and I've got a couple questions.
Jim, or anyone else who's done this, I'm making 5 sets of double casements (or french casements) with no center divider. I've done one of these before, and I added on a piece to the exterior of one window to lap the other window. The design of the window made it hard to rabbet the sashes to lap. In the windows I'm building now I'll rabbet the center stiles to lap over each other. Do you just use a simple rabbet with weatherstrip, or do you have a more interlocking profile there, like loewen does (for example).
Also, I'm wondering about kerf-in weatherstrip vs. stick on. The one disadvantage to kerf-in seems to be that I can't get it locally.
Still hemming and hawing about the whitco hinges vs. butt hinges. $350 in hinges sounds like a lot to me.
zak
Hey! Crimony! Just saw this, Zak! Send me a frikkin' e mail or something next time, man. Geez, can't let this old friend disappear.
Double casements with no mullion? I have done them with an add on astrigal (sp?) like you describe, but I built several sets of those for our new house and used meeting rabbets with kerfed in weatherstripping. Stick on will probably work just as well, but I had ordered several hundred feet of kerf type from Resource Conservation Technologies, so I used it.
Okay, here's one thing I didn't foresee about that double rabbet. One sash closes against and latches to the other right? But how does the first sash latch? I originally planned to use surface mount latches, maybe surface bolts. But then I thought how nice flush bolts in the side on the sash would be and ordered a bunch of 4" flush bolts, thinking how sweet that was gonna be, right? Well, I'm sure you've already figured out that the 9/16 face of that rabbet isn't wide enough for the flush bolt. So now I'm back to something on the interior face of the sash.
"$350 in hinges sounds like a lot to me."
I don't think I ever paid more than 20.00/pair for Whitco hinges, man. And that's the really heavy mama jammas. Did you go to their website http://www.vincentwhitney.com ?
You can get them from Builder's Hardware, in Seattle, too. They keep some in stock and are very good about shipping stuff.
Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Edited 4/9/2006 4:40 am ET by jimblodgett
Thanks for this entertaining thread Jim.
I'm impressed with all the site built windows. It's kind of ironic that my first business venture was a wooden basement storm window back in 1974. I half lapped the corners of some scrap 2x4's and was quite proud of my work.
I got paid $35 for the thing, which included paint. I wonder if it's still there.
Oh yeah...that was my first and last window.
blue
I have done them with an add on astrigal (sp?) like you describe, but I built several sets of those for our new house and used meeting rabbets with kerfed in weatherstripping. Stick on will probably work just as well, but I had ordered several hundred feet of kerf type from Resource Conservation Technologies, so I used it.
Exactly what I did on my lumber building. The kerfed RCT product is EPDM and is going to far outlast anything I've ever seen offered in stickon. Their silicone ropes might last as long, glued into the astragal corner. I set my kerf close to the outer edge. Sheds water very well.
One sash closes against and latches to the other right? But how does the first sash latch? I originally planned to use surface mount latches, maybe surface bolts.
Surface bolts is how I keep mine closed. Inelegant, buy my planer doesn't mind. These are opened to let boards exit the planer, which sits only a couple feet from the wall. Works very well, until it rains. <G>PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
hmm, Vincent Whitney said $35 a pair for 10x hinges, steel. In other places I've seen similar style hinges for about $17 a pair, but I don't know anything about their quality. Maybe I'll call Builder's Hardware about em.
Surface bolts don't bother me, I got a bunch of them on closeout from veritas anyway. I'll have to get that Resource Conservation catalog- do you remember what that kerf in stuff was called?
Here's a picture of the hardware for my last window- double casement over a fixed window. The two casements are rabbeted into the lower fixed window, but they seal between each other with an astragal, as you call it. It just uses one bolt to hold the whole deal closed, since the windows are quite small (12" x 12").
zak
I scanned in the cover of the catalog RCT sent me, Zak, along with a couple pages you might find relevant. The weatherstrip I used is #WS-14 and so far so good. They sell a whole line of kerf type and glue on weatherseals - bulbs, flippers, silicone, maybe foam...check them out.
Last I checked they didn't have a website to download this stuff from but they were very good about mailing out whatever catalog(s) I wanted. Give them a call (410) 366-1146, Baltimore.
35 skins/pair for Whitco hinges doesn't sound right. I tried to find some receipts but couldn't. Maybe they got tired of selling ones and twos to individuals and jacked their prices up to encourage folks to buy through hardware suppliers instead of direct. Call Builder's Supply (looks like I chucked their catalog or I'd post the number).
Hey, nice looking window, there.Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Those RCT pages are the perfect thing, Jim. Looks like I'll be ordering a roll of kerf-in tomorrow. If those Whitcos are $20 a pair I'd give them a try, but at $35 a pair, I think I might go for butt hinges and nice operators where needed. I'll let you know if the price has skyrocketed after I call around.
zak
Cool stuff - thanks for the reference! The prices have gone up a bit since '97 - here's the latest weatherstripping catalog:
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/downloads/Weatherseals.pdf
Jim- update on the hinges- Vincent Whitney tells me $32 a pair for the 10x steel (10% off 50 pairs or more), Builders Hardware says $27.39 for the 10x. I can find the Truth casement hinge for quite a bit less- $13 a pair, but their tech support says they're not a friction hinge, and need a casement operator to go with. I think I'll buy some whitco's tomorrow, enough for two double casements, and see how I like them.
I noticed that these whitco style friction hinges are widely used and cheap in europe and australia/NZ. interesting how tastes vary.
got all my sashes glued up today (for 5 double casements)! maybe I'll post pics in "what did you do today"
zak
Any chance you can get over to Seattle before you need those hinges? Last week I stopped at "Second Use Materials" and pawed through the "window hardware" section (love old pulls and such) and there were maybe 1/2 dozen OLD Whitco hinges still in their boxes marked 10.00/pair or something.
I remember saying to Kathy, "I should buy these" but then thought "why? This isn't much cheaper than new, and they were OLD". Still almost bought them just so they would go to their intended use but didn't. Bet you a nickle they are still there.
I've never used Truth hinges, they might do this too, but one really nice thing about Whitco hinges is they open something like 140 degrees and the butt side of the sash slides into the opening. So when you open them all the way, the sash almost inverts, making cleaning the outside of the glass a sinch from inside the room.
Excuse me if I've said all this a gagillion times. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Is Second Use the place down is south park, or the one on SE 4th or thereabouts? Also, did you notice any old casement adjusters there? I like the look of those things, and I've got some original casement windows in this house that blow in the wind when they're open.
Thanks for the tip.
My wife likes the idea of windows cleanable from the inside for the upstairs.
zak
Second Use Building Materials<!---->(206) 763-6929<!----><!---->(253) 627-7717<!---->7953 2nd Ave SSeattle, WA 98108
I just Googled it and found their website, Zak. Check it out. Great fun digging through all that old stuff.Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
One drawback to surface bolts is that they do not exert any pressure to help seal the windows by themselves. I have 42" in swinging windows, and I used a sliding bolt at the top and bottom of one window, plus a casement latch in the middle. This provides a little pressure, but of course these are much larger than your 12" ones.