Anybody doing alt energy systems?
JohnT8
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
My employer asked me to look into the feasibility of putting some PV’s on one or more of our buildings.
As a side note, I was just curious if anyone out here in BT land was doing alternative energy systems? PV’s, wind turbines, whatever.
In the US, there currently is a Federal Tax Credit for 30% of the system cost (restricted to $2k for residential, unlimited for commercial), plus several states (like CA) have generous rebate programs.
jt8
“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote.” — Benjamin Franklin
Edited 8/23/2007 5:34 pm by JohnT8
Replies
17 hampsters in a wheel turning a 74 Chevy alternater.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Boy oh boy
Those poor guys are getting a good workoutMartin
<17 hampsters in a wheel turning a 74 Chevy alternater.>
Nay, I'd have to go with a later model single wire GM - the 'self-exciting" kind.
Just always liked the way that sounds - got one on my own ride.
Forrest
Know it well, just plopped one in my "New" 95 GMC Van..
I need more hampsters to spin the FoMoCo in the truck (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Have built them all at one time or another.
In Spfld, solar will never compete with municipal coal on cost unless there is an as yet unforseen cost breakthru on photovoltaics or thermal concentrators.
Here is a paper I wrote a couple of years ago. Also did part of the Goldendale, WA wind turbine $$fiasco 20 years ago, a little knowledge of what can go wrong.
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/TM-2004-213361.pdf ($50K for the cells alone)
The subsidies are where you make the money, need to figure those for sure. A $2K handout is welcome at any time, need to read the fine print.
e-mail me with any technical only specifics (I have not kept up with IL or federal subsidies), be glad to answer.
Edited 8/23/2007 6:34 pm ET by junkhound
In Spfld, solar will never compete with municipal coal on cost unless there is an as yet unforseen cost breakthru on photovoltaics or thermal concentrators.
That is what I'm running into. CWLP rates are fairly low, and the credits they offer are for efficiency, not alternative energy. Which makes sense since payoff is quicker for efficency upgrades plus less hassle for them if you're buying a more efficient fridge than if you're installing a pv system. They have a rate increase coming up later this year, but based on the current rates, you're only looking at making around $109/year per KW.
Looking at a small system to maximize the DCEO rebate, say 4KW, your installed price is probably around $34k. You collect your $10k from DCEO and then for commercial application, you take a 30% Fed Tax credit. But you still have around $16,800 invested. Now divide in the estimated $436/year. And that isn't taking into account interest or maintenance. No way I'm going to recommend to the board that they invest in something with a 20 year warrenty that takes 30-40 years to payoff. I would need to get that number down to 10-15yrs.
But where to find that extra $$ or credit or rebate?
With the Fed tax credit in place until the end of 2008, those states with more generous rebates (like CA) are seeing a greater demand for PV's. This demand will keep PV prices up. So no help there. I've asked one of the numbers guys to look into an accelerated depreciation on the equipment to see if that would help, but it is a long shot.
By the by, my $109 number came from:
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS/version1/US/Illinois/Springfield.html
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
Edited 8/24/2007 10:08 am by JohnT8
It is a shame we don't have wind. The state grants for wind are 50% up to $25k. And the per KW cost of wind turbines is much lower than PV's. Give me a windy spot, and I could probably make a turbine pay for itself.
IL is only mediocre for solar, but sunlight is still more reliable than the wind.
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
"It is a shame we don't have wind. "What about hot air? Isn't Springfiedl the state capital?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
There are been multiple suggestions of putting an axial turbine on the capital dome. Especially since the budget is a month or so overdue and the volume of hot air escaping from that building could probably power the entire capital complex.
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
and I could probably make a turbine pay for itself.
A co-worker retired to Oklahoma. Used a bunch of surplus drill stem from the oil fields to build a 100 ft tower, think he carved a 10 ft prop from laminated maple. Found an old alternator and providing most his own power. Almost nothing other than retirement time invested.
The killer on wind turbines is maintenance. One of the original Mt. Washington wind turbines literally got blown away long ago. In the mid-80's the 2.5 MW unit at Goldendale twisted off the final drive shaft (recall it was 6" of 320 ksi steel, 4340) during a high wind. Probably still need to DIY for a residential unit to make it pay unless there are great subsidies.
The Danish coastal windmills have a good reputation.
One of the original Mt. Washington wind turbines literally got blown away long ago.
It gets a bit too breezy up there for most wind turbines. Today's peak gust was only a 65 MPH zephyr, but it gets pretty windy sometimes:
Thursday, April 12 1934
http://www.mountwashington.org/about/visitor/recordwind.php
"There was no doubt this morning that a super-hurricane, Mt. Washington style, was in full development." -- Log Book entry, Sal Pagliuca
After taking a short nap, Stephenson awoke to find that it was 4:00 am. Although groggy, he knew that the wind sounded louder and stronger, so he checked the recorder. He needed to convert the recorded reading to the true value according to the instrument's correction curve, and some quick math pointed to an average windspeed of only 105 mph. It was clearly less than he expected. This meant one thing-the instrument was hampered by ice buildup.
Stephenson suited up, grabbed a wooden club and headed for the door. The intense wind created so much pressure that he was knocked to the floor as he opened the door. He struggled as he made his way to the ladder. The wind was at his back, and actually helped him maintain solid footing on the ladder. With dozens of blows, he cleared the accumulated ice from the anemometer. He dropped the club by accident, and it sailed off into the fog towards the Tip Top House.
Back inside, he flipped on the recorder and began timing the clicks from the telegraph sounder. After three tries, he verified that the wind now topped 150 mph.
The pieces were coming together for a major weather event. On this day, the ridge over the Atlantic and the storm over the eastern Great Lakes had become even stronger. More importantly, the pressure gradient between these two systems was extremely tight on the northeast portion of the low. This was causing very strong and extremely rare southeast winds.
"I dropped all other activities and concentrated on observations. Everyone in the house was "mobilized' as during a war attack and assigned a job. The instruments were watched continuously so that they may give a continuous and accurate record of the various meteorological elements at work. The anemometer was particularly watched. A full tank of gasoline made us feel good." - Log Book entry, Sal Pagliuca
As the day wore on, winds grew stronger and stronger. Frequent values of 220 mph were recorded between Noon and 1:00 pm, with occasional gusts of 229 mph. Then, at 1:21 pm on April 12, 1934, the extreme value of 231 mph out of the southeast was recorded. This would prove to be the highest natural surface wind velocity ever officially recorded by means of an anemometer, anywhere in the world.
"'Will they believe it?' was our first thought. I felt then the full responsibility of that startling measurement. Was my timing correct? Was the method OK? Was the calibration curve right? Was the stopwatch accurate?" - Log Book entry, Sal Pagliuca
Extremely strong winds were recorded later in the afternoon and evening of the 12th and then the storm slowly moved north and entered a weakening phase.
The storm lasted only one day. Some snow was recorded along with severe icing. The anemometer used to record the record wind was a heated anemometer designed special for Mount Washington. It was constructed in Cambridge MA, and tested in the wind tunnel at the Guggenheim Aeronautical Laboratory of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Boston.
After the wind measurement, the anemometer was run through a number of tests by the National Weather Bureau and the historic measurement of 231 mph was confirmed to be a valid reading.
Although challenged by 1997's Typhoon Paka in Guam, Mount Washington's record still stands to this day.
I' have never heard of any wind turbines on Mt Washing ton. When did they have one up there?
I've summited a couple time hiking and been up the auto rd a few times and read a bit about it but I don't ever recall anything about that.
JH, Just read your paper on high voltage solar concentrators. Thank-you for sharing that. (Very interesting read & well written to boot, if I may say).
As you point out, DIY is a way of getting into the alt. energy movement where the payback on retail stuff is too long or is unwarranted due to a marginal site.(My own situation as an example.)
As is (was?) your co-worker in Oklahoma, I am a retired DIY of some motivation & hugely interested in projects such as his. If I can build it cheaply enough, (discounting my own labour as this would be one of love not economics!) marginal site & ROI become non-issues.
A very interesting fellow, HUGH PIGGOTT of the UK has some very informative stuff on wind power. His homebrew design for a permanent-magnet generator which operates at the RPM of the wind turbine simplifies drastically the mfg. of DIY wind power systems & reduces the maintenance compared to commercial systems.
His knowledge and obvious zest for technology (at a level above what you might expect from a shade-tree mechanic type) are evidenced by his understanding & working application of airfoil design of the turbine blades. I learned much from his site about Reynolds numbers, blade twist, tip speed ratios etc. etc. and thought of the parallel between him & you. ie: modest about your backgrounds but much deeper than 1st blush might suggest.
Thank you again for sharing a glimpse of what you have done/do in your non-BT life.
"Junkhound" just doesn't seem an adequate handle somehow.
Regards,
STAINLESS
"solar will never compete with municipal coal on cost unless there is an as yet unforseen cost breakthru on photovoltaics or thermal concentrators."It is coming sooner than you think (I hope).http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070719011151.htmhttp://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/19044/http://www.konarkatech.com/
Try Builditsolar.com
Try Builditsolar.com
Reminds me of Mother Earth News. Some interesting projects in there though. I think this type of thing was a MEN article a year or so back:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Madison.html
Aha! I think this is the article:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative-Energy/2006-12-01/Build-a-Simple-Solar-Heater.aspx
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
Gary writes for Mother. The project he did on his house with the radiaint tubing floor heat was very interesting. His website seems to be dedicated to affordable altenative energy. It's a shame there are not more people like him exploring this further.
We do systems with ice/thermal storage frequently. I don't know if that counts as "alternative" energy or not.
We also have a large central plant type of project in the works in which a municipality that has a telephone pole manufacturing/turning/finishing factory as one of its main business. The bark and wood chips from the telephone pole creation is used as the energy source in a gasifcation process boiler, and steam heat as well as cooling via absorption chillers is provided for the public schools and the local civic center. We're providing all of the air handling/air conditioning equipment as well.
John,
Out near Sweetwater, Texas, they have installed 300+ huge wind turbines. More are planned by 2008 and made by General Electric and Mitshiubchi. The "Texas State Technical Institute" has now started a 2 year program to train workers for maintenance and repair. Towers 200'+ with 1.5 to 3.5 Megawatt turbines that require upkeep, and remember, you're 200 ft.+ up in the air while repairing them....
PV cells are still costly, but the new chemicals make them more cost efficient every day. Still, a small company or homeowner will have to wait another 8-10 years before they can help the average blue collar working family.
Solar water heating requires maintenance and upkeep....
The best you can do these days is to "Conserve". Use insulation. It has no moving parts, and other than adding radiant barriers or more insulation due to settling, there is no repair or upkeep. Windows with Low-E coatings, additional layers of glass filled with inert gas, and frameworks with thermal barriers can add to your savings. Getting some free outside help from your public utility will make our boss happy and the energy audit can give you a place to start.
"There's no free lunch." Alt. Energy is still Supplementary Energy. In Technology, there's a tradeoff between time/labor spent and paying the gas, oil, and power companies.
Bill
Edited 8/24/2007 10:43 pm ET by BilljustBill
We did a little PV system to provide back up power enought just to run the well pump so the folks could have running water during a power failure and that alone was $15,000.00
But we install solar hot water and radiant floor heat all the time. Great combination and no worries about batteries or transformers.
M
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
FWIW: http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=07-P13-00034&segmentID=4
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
I am building in the Columbia River Gorge, so there is a fair amount of wind. Unfortunately, I am in an area that is a "scenic area", which means there are lots of restrictions on what, how high, what color, etc., can be built. I am hoping that one of the small vertical axis windmills will be reasonably feasible financially and can be adequately disguised - but maybe not.
There was an article in the S.F. Chronicle a few weeks back about a vertical axis windmill under development. Can't seem to locate it, but there are a couple of other related articles, thanks to Google:
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/04/turby_vertical_.html
http://www.greenwindmill.com/
I trust everyone is familiar with "Home Power". Occasionally they have a good article on small scale energy generation. I haven't checked their site for a while, but they used to have an extensive section on vendors for small scale power.
http://www.homepower.com/
The guy I talked with at the state seemed to think that the vertical axis turbines were the up and coming item. He had just been to a alt energy convention and there were several new vertical turbines about to hit the market. But it doesn't matter if you live where there's no wind.
He mentioned something about Disney world or land had mounted some of them on light poles with Disney characters or some such painted on the blades.
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin