I’ve been working as a carpenter for over 30 years. Started out framing, spent a lot of time doing carpenter and millwright work on industrial sites, and for the last 15 years it has been a combination of framing, interior trim, and remodeling. I also worked on several historic restoration projects.
Now I’m living in a town and state (Santa Cruz, CA) that I just moved to 2 1/2 years ago. The work climate here is definitely different than anywhere else I’ve ever lived. Most guys here get their contractor’s license, and then work for other people by the hour on a 1099, picking up contracting jobs when they can. Everybody and their brother is a contractor here, mainly to give them the freedom to surf, ski, etc when they want to.
I’m in the process of getting my own license, and plan to start up my own business. I’m a better carpenter than 90% of the guys I’ve worked with, and for, here. I’ve had my own business before, and without a Breaktime forum to go to, learned the hard way about always getting work because I underbid everything. I plan to utilize all the advice here and do it right this time.
There doesn’t seem to be anyone here that truly specializes in working on old houses, or historic structures, if you prefer. There isn’t a single one who advertizes that way, and I haven’t met anyone who likes doing that kind of work. But I love it, and I think I can carve a niche for myself in that market. There are a lot of old homes here, but due to an earthquake in 1989 which pretty much destroyed the downtown area, and the resulting rebuilding, historic preservation is not as big a priority as in some cities. One guy told me that after the earthquake, the preservation movement in Santa Cruz pretty much died out.
My plan is to start out doing all kinds of remodeling, additions, and repairs, etc. to put food on the table, with a goal of someday doing only old house work. In some cities that would be easy, but I don’t know about Santa Cruz. I expect I’ll have to work in nearby cities as well, such as Monterey and Carmel.
As I ease into this, I’m sure I’ll be asking for advice from all of you here. I wish I’d had this resource when I had my business before! But for now I’m interested in hearing from other folks who specialize in historic restoration and preservation, with any tips you might have for me. Of course, all advice and comments are welcome.
Edited 2/9/2005 11:50 am ET by moondance
Replies
Well, I’m not a contractor, but I am a homeowner who has done a few restoration/rehabilitation jobs (and currently living through our biggest restoration yet).
I am always glad to hear about someone who is interested in historic preservation. In our little town, it has been a continuing battle to help educate people on the positive economic benefits of historic preservation to the town as a whole….and to thwart the decimation of our historic district by constructing McMansons and/or tearing down historic structures. There is so much to admire about Santa Cruz too—I’d hate to see this town go the way of so many other California beach communities…
In an effort to encourage people to choose historic preservation over “remuddling,†there are some tax incentive programs available that make historic preservation more palatable to those who are willing to undergo the sometimes challenging ordeal…. It took awhile, but we got our city to implement the Mills Act (a California tax incentive program) which can have the effect of lowering one’s property taxes by 50 plus percent for a minimum of ten years (provided you are willing to follow some guidelines regarding historic preservation)
While, I don’t have any specifics regarding contracting, I have a lot of info regarding historic preservation. As guidelines to what should and should not be done to a historic building, you may wish to look at the Secretary of the Interior’s Standards for Historic Rehabilitation….
http://www.cr.nps.gov/hps/tps/tax/rhb/stand.htm
Best of luck in you endeavors…California needs more people like you…
Thanks for the reply and the encouragement, PNUT. What town do you live in? When I first moved here and did a little research, I just kinda figured there wouldn't be enough work to keep a guy busy doing old houses. But my mind is changing, and I think I'm going to make that my primary market from the beginning. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go along, so you'll probably be hearing from me again.
Moondance--
I live in the North Bay Area and would be glad to assist any way I can in providing you information or references Just let me know....
A couple of other thoughts:
Try to find out local architects that do historically sensitive work. They may be able to give you some referrals...and vice versa. I've found working with an architect who "gets it" when it comes to historic preservation to invaluable...If you found the right people, it might be a nice collaboration.
Join a local "historic preservation" group...who might be able to feed you work.
If Santa Cruz has a "historic preservation commission" or a person who is responible making decisions regarding historic homes, go meet this person or group and let them know that you are interested in this kind of work (a number of folks have been referred to me to "ask questions." I have even had a few offers to do work...despite the fact that I'm not a "pro.")
One of the reasons why I do most of the work myself is because it is difficult to find contractors who are willing to do this type of work (most seem to want tear down and start over with new...). If you can find yourself a good project (as an example of your work), and get your name on a sign out front that emphasizes that you specialize in restoration/rehabilitation, then you may get the snowball rolling.
While I'm sure you are busy enough just trying to set down roots and get food on the table, the more you can convince your local city council to encourage historic preservation (through programs like the Mills Act) the more jobs you'll have to choose from.
You may also wish to contact/join the California Preservation Foundation...and attend seminars etc and network that way as well. See www.californiapreservation.org.
Again, best of luck!
Good luck getting into restoration. There aren't enough qualified people doing that in my opinion.
PNUTIII gave you some good tips before I got to this thread. Follow up with the Historical Preservation Org. in your area.
Hope you do well.
"A hard head makes for a sore a$$."
Thanks again, PNUT. I was a member of the local and state organizations in Macon, as well as the National Trust. I'll definitely join the CPF, and any other organizations I can find around here.
Done several after 30 yrs in the biz. The current one I bought for myself to redo as I live in it is a cira:1680 red colonial that needs a tremendous amt of work (I think a few of the guys here can tell you about it being that they visited me).
I love it too....much more rewarding than all the years of conventional home reno's I'd been doing.
Can't even imagine doing a conventional house ever again.
My cards and signs have a glossy photo or a tipi lit up with a fire in it reflecting onto a lake in a moonlit night sky and it says:
CLIFFORD RENOVATIONS
"taking the past into the future"
HAve fun and good luck
Be well
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Thanks, Andy. I think I checked out your website awhile back. I worked on several old houses before I left Georgia and did lots of research. At one time I thought about getting a master's degree in historic preservation. Some of us really love old houses, and I'm one. It's hard for me to get real passionate about building yet another new house, but I can get real passionate about an old one. I know that passion and enthusiasm will take me a long way in getting the kind of work I want.
I'll have to check out your website again. Take care.On a different note, do you ever go to any of the Allman Brothers shows at the Beacon?
<<<On a different note, do you ever go to any of the Allman Brothers shows at the Beacon?>>>>
moondance
Of course, they play there just about every year. One of THE best places to hear music in NYC!.
Its a beautiful old theater with fantasic acoustics.
Have you? Why'd you ask? You know me or sumpin'?
Be Duane and Greg
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
<<<Of course, they play there just about every year. One of THE best places to hear music in NYC!.Its a beautiful old theater with fantasic acoustics.Have you? Why'd you ask? You know me or sumpin'?Be Duane and Greg>>>They do play there every year, an annual run in March. No, I don't know you, but I like your signature, the work you do, and the way you conduct yourself in the forum. I'll bet you've wore out a few copies of "Eat A Peach." I'm a huge Allman Brothers fan, and while I've never been to the Beacon, it's on my list of things to do. You know, when I'm a big-time contractor and everything. ;)
funny thing about hearing them there each year.....seems I never hear a familiar tune...they seem to just jam all night long.
And yeh....For some wierd reason I own two Eat A Peach "albums".
Be Dicky Betts
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
<<<funny thing about hearing them there each year.....seems I never hear a familiar tune...they seem to just jam all night long.And yeh....For some wierd reason I own two Eat A Peach "albums".Be Dicky Betts>>>Then you should go to their website and check out the setlists for the shows you attend. They still play all of their old songs, mixed with the new. I saw 3 shows at the Fox Theater in Atlanta in September, and they only played one song more than once. Dreams, which they played all three nights. A different guitar monster playing Duane's solo each night. Pure bliss for a Peachhead!I suppose you're aware that Dickey is no longer with them. Warren Haynes and Derek Trucks. I think Duane would be proud.
Look for RenaissanceMan (I think that's his "handle"). He runs Renaissance Restorations in Massachusetts and posts some great looking work from time to time. His website is pretty good too.
***As I ease into this,***
Dont. Decide to drive it like you stole it, then start your business. Once you get going you will see how long it takes to get everything rolling, and
-a niche market shouldnt be a side show- (from Bob Kovacs)
Im on the other side of the earth, in Maine, there is a paint co. here and their logo is "the old house guys", they are constantly slammed. When you tell people something they believe you. I understand your local dilemma, but if you have a list of things you can do, you will get other work as well. Oh and get lead remodeling certified if you arent already.
be the ball, and luck.
-zen
Thanks for the advice, zen. If I'm going to go for that market, I might as well go full-speed. If I market myself as an "old house" guy, I'm sure I'll pick up other work as well. I like what you said about driving it like I stole it. I needed to hear that.
Good to hear your introduction. This too, is what I do for teo reasons. One is that I love the older styles and detailing, and have the patience for it. The other is that mopre than half the houses on this island where I live are over a hunderd years old.
As I dismantle, repair and rebuild, I get to read trail, and get to know the designer and craftsmen who went before me, and sometimes to learn from them, both from their mistakes and from their ingenuity.
advice?
Keep your work agreements loose enough for adjustment, meaning that if you prefer fixed price contracts, bid'm high or leave language for openning change orders due to unexpected circumstances. These will occcour and can add 15-40 percent to a job. Of course you want to advise the owners of that possibility ahead of time, especially if working on cost plus with estimate. Doing busimness with an open ended agreement is highly dependent on trust. That is the primary thing you need to establish in uyour reputation. Once they know you as trustworthy and as a quality craftsman, the sky is the limit.
In my area, I am fortunate to have a rather wealthy demographic base, folks who c an afford to do it right and who want to keep up appearances with one another. Are there any high end people out there? I'm not familiar with the west coast.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
you should know by now that house work gets old fast...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
<<<you should know by now that house work gets old fast...>>>I do. I live alone with two cats. I wish I could teach one of them to vacuum, but that would require first teaching them that the vacuum is not something to be terrified of.
Roomba and two terrified cats. More fun than a barrel of monkeys.
<<<Roomba and two terrified cats. More fun than a barrel of monkeys.>>>Uncle Dunc, the first time I fired up the vacuum around these two, Rusty, the brother, tore around the house like I was after him with a hatchet. He finally opened the door to the cabinet under the sink with his paw and dove inside. That got me to thinking that if he could open it to hide, he could also open it to use the bathroom. So I put the litter box under there, and that's where they'd go.Mojo, the sister, wasn't afraid of the vacuum until she saw how scared Rusty was, so now she's scared, too. I'm in a new place now, and their litter box is in the kitchen closet. They can both open the door when they need to. Now Mojo has learned how to open drawers as well. I'm serious. I'll come home from work, and every cabinet in the house is open, except the ones they can't reach, and a few drawers, too. I have long hair, and wear it tied back. Mojo likes to play with the hair ties, and that's what she looks for in the drawers. She will literally stand up on her hind legs and grab the top of the cabinet doors to open them, and I assume that's how she opens the drawers, too. I never was a cat person till I got these two about a year and a half ago. Now I can't imagine not having them around.
<<<Good to hear your introduction. This too, is what I do for teo reasons. One is that I love the older styles and detailing, and have the patience for it. The other is that mopre than half the houses on this island where I live are over a hunderd years old.As I dismantle, repair and rebuild, I get to read trail, and get to know the designer and craftsmen who went before me, and sometimes to learn from them, both from their mistakes and from their ingenuity.>>>I hear ya, piffin. I worked on a house built in the 1840's a few years ago. We supported the house while we put a foundation under it, and replaced the exterior siding. While I was at the sawhorse cutting siding, and on the scaffold putting it up, I felt a kinship with the carpenters (probably slaves) who built the house. Knowing that they set up for work in the same place I was, but over 150 years ago, working on the same house. I'm a history buff, and that is definitely a feeling you don't get working on a new house. Seeing the little hand whittled shims they used to straighten things, the Roman numerals they scribed on the rafters to put them in the right place...We found a nickel from 1905, I think, in one of the walls. We put a 2000 with it and sealed them both back up. <<<advice?Keep your work agreements loose enough for adjustment, meaning that if you prefer fixed price contracts, bid'm high or leave language for openning change orders due to unexpected circumstances. These will occcour and can add 15-40 percent to a job. Of course you want to advise the owners of that possibility ahead of time, especially if working on cost plus with estimate. Doing busimness with an open ended agreement is highly dependent on trust. That is the primary thing you need to establish in uyour reputation. Once they know you as trustworthy and as a quality craftsman, the sky is the limit.>>>One thing I bring to the table is transparent honesty. I like to do things right, and keep the owner posted on everything as the job goes along. I agree that trust is key when doing this kind of work. I'm fortunate enough to live in the same town as Gary Ransone, author of the Contractor's Legal Aid kit. In fact, I met him on a job, and went by his office to pick up his book. I'll have to check and see if there is a contract in the book to use in this kind of work. And I'll talk to him about it, too.<<<In my area, I am fortunate to have a rather wealthy demographic base, folks who c an afford to do it right and who want to keep up appearances with one another. Are there any high end people out there? I'm not familiar with the west coast.>>>piffin, we're just over the hill from Silicon Valley, so, yeah, there are some high-enders here. The median house price in Santa Cruz just hit $700,000. That's not a typo. The typical scenario is someone from San Jose buys a little house here, maybe 1500 sq. ft, built in the 50's, for $500,000 to a million, depending on location, then tears it down and builds what he really wants. I just worked on one. Guy paid $875,000 for a house near the beach, no more than 1,000 sq. ft., and tore it down to build himself a newer little beach house. Left one wall standing so he could call it a remodel. I'm not sure how many of those types are buying old houses to be restored, but the old houses are here, and from what I've seen in 2 1/2 years, there is no one here that is considered to be the "old house guys," so I guess it will have to be me.
Thanks for the help.
Been doing restoration of Victorian homes since 1994. It's kind of a "niche" skillset around here. At times it can be fun, other times, a "Challenge". One rule I've always applied when doing restoration work "The job will take longer than originally planned". 2/3 of the work I've done is to correct re-muddling efforts, and the rest, plain old restoration work. AS in any business there are good customers and "customers from hell". Not to mention clients who have no clue as to what it takes to restore a building.
Joe Farrell
Renaissance Restorations of Massachusetts
Renaissance Restorations
Antique & Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
<<<Been doing restoration of Victorian homes since 1994. It's kind of a "niche" skillset around here. At times it can be fun, other times, a "Challenge". One rule I've always applied when doing restoration work "The job will take longer than originally planned". 2/3 of the work I've done is to correct re-muddling efforts, and the rest, plain old restoration work. AS in any business there are good customers and "customers from hell". Not to mention clients who have no clue as to what it takes to restore a building.>>>>Thanks for the reply, Joe. I checked out your website. Very nice. Nice work, too. I like the way you present your plan to the customer. What program do you use for that?
If your cats are afriad of the vacuum, try to vacuum their fur. We had one when I was a kid(actually, we had it for about 21 years) and if it heard someone start to clean the basement stairs, it was right there. White Siamese, deep blue eyes. Pure evil, but it loved to be vacuumed.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
<<<If your cats are afriad of the vacuum, try to vacuum their fur. We had one when I was a kid(actually, we had it for about 21 years) and if it heard someone start to clean the basement stairs, it was right there. White Siamese, deep blue eyes. Pure evil, but it loved to be vacuumed.>>>That's funny, highfigh. I can't imagine trying to vacuum these two. I'd have to find them first, but I know where most of their hiding places are. Mojo gets on the bed, under the covers, so there's a little lump in the middle of the bed. BTW, does anyone know if it is harmful to a cat to lie on my computer monitor while I'm at the computer? Please say no..
do some occasional work.. gotta go see a guy about new windows in an Historic District jurisdiction next week...
and of course..... a lot of our housing stock is colonial.. and a lot is victorian.. so, we're always bumping into restoration workMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
<<<do some occasional work.. gotta go see a guy about new windows in an Historic District jurisdiction next week...and of course..... a lot of our housing stock is colonial.. and a lot is victorian.. so, we're always bumping into restoration work>>>Thanks for the reply, Mike. I've never been to Rhode Island, but I would think you couldn't drive very far without seeing an old house. Do you find it harder to price those jobs accurately? Do you price it differently than the other work you do?
Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
moon.... i was born in Santa Cruz ... you guys are making me think i should go for a visit.... i'm told it was quite the place when i left in '44...
around here... the old homes had all fallen into disrepair.. they were patched and abominal things were done to them from the Great Depression right up until the late '70's
as more money came ... the restoration started.. so we kind of snuck up on it..
when i started we were still ripping off details to simplify....
nowadays we're ripping off the old repairs to restore..
it all depends on who owns the house..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Its funny, my wife and I were talking seriously last nite about leaving the east coast to live in Santa Cruz, as we have some family there and love it. The biggest hurdle is the housing prices for us. If we sold our house here we could just get a $500,000 house (real estate has done well here too on our house)
What are wages like for highly skilled, crew leading carpenters? Any clue what master degreed public school teachers make?
Thanks!
Homer, your questions don't fit well in this thread and it's likely that few readers will see your post. I'd suggest fitting this into a different thread or starting a new one with an appropriate title.b
Maybe do a search on cost of living in different areas. There are a lot of threads like that that pop up from time to time.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
<<<Its funny, my wife and I were talking seriously last nite about leaving the east coast to live in Santa Cruz, as we have some family there and love it. The biggest hurdle is the housing prices for us. If we sold our house here we could just get a $500,000 house (real estate has done well here too on our house)What are wages like for highly skilled, crew leading carpenters? Any clue what master degreed public school teachers make?>>>Sorry for taking so long to see this, homer. Just half a million will get you a 1,200 to 1,500 sq. ft. house built in the 70s in a basic working-class neighborhood. But you'll still be in Santa Cruz.If you're a highly skilled carpenter, with all your tools, you can get $30 to $35 an hour. Get your contractor's license and you can do better than that. I think you could sell your house there, move here and buy whatever you can afford in the neighborhood you like, and use your skills and the money for your first house to do really well for yourself.
Allen in Santa Cruz
<<<moon.... i was born in Santa Cruz ... you guys are making me think i should go for a visit.... i'm told it was quite the place when i left in '44...>>> It has definitely changed in that time, Mike. I love it here. You should visit your birthplace if you ever get the chance. There are some beautiful old homes here. I haven't been here long enough to know what's been torn down, remuddled, or vinyl-sided. All my work so far has been on newer stuff. Well, one remodel in Ben Lomond on a house built in the 20's. That's not old to me.
Allen in Santa Cruz
i've been on my own doing historic buildings since i was 17... I make alot more money on newer stuff... but i keep come'n back to old stuff... i had to saw an 8ft section out of 12"X16" heart pine beam yesterday... that joker was sway'n in the wind when the Mayflower landed... sure makes you think...
pony
as for the 8ft secton of beam... i swear i treat that stuff like it's a new BMW in the garage...
<<<i've been on my own doing historic buildings since i was 17... I make alot more money on newer stuff... but i keep come'n back to old stuff... i had to saw an 8ft section out of 12"X16" heart pine beam yesterday... that joker was sway'n in the wind when the Mayflower landed... sure makes you think...ponyas for the 8ft secton of beam... i swear i treat that stuff like it's a new BMW in the garage... >>>We replaced some sill beams in an old house a few years ago. Mortice and tenon joints, with a big peg through them. We replaced them with new wood milled to the exact measurements of the old. Same mortice and tenon joinery. One joint had completely rotted away, but as I was digging it out, the peg, which had not rotted fell out on the ground. My souvenir from the job. When we took the siding off, we could see that the wainscot on the inside were all single boards, some 23" wide. They don't make them like that anymore!
My local Junior College has a Historical Preservation certificate program and I hear some of the grads are getting paid well in gov jobs or as consultants. Folks who have been remodeling any length of time in an area of older homes are just as, if not more qualified IMO.
Lots O money down there in S.C. Is Shultz still around? Remember to keep the surf board hidden in the truck. Scares off the experienced clients! Got a board meeting of my own tommorow am. I'm thinking your making a very good business decision. Good luck
Tom
<<<My local Junior College has a Historical Preservation certificate program and I hear some of the grads are getting paid well in gov jobs or as consultants. Folks who have been remodeling any length of time in an area of older homes are just as, if not more qualified IMO. Lots O money down there in S.C. Is Shultz still around? Remember to keep the surf board hidden in the truck. Scares off the experienced clients! Got a board meeting of my own tommorow am. I'm thinking your making a very good business decision. Good luck>>>Thanks for the input, Tom. Are you talking about Clarke Shultes? I don't know him, but he's on the Santa Cruz Historic Preservation Commission, which I just found out about today. I hear ya about the surfboards. I've had potential employers ask me if I surf, as part of the interview, and some have rules against having a surfboard in your vehicle on the jobsite. One of the first things a surfing carenter told me when I moved here...."when surfs up, nobody works." That seems to be the general attitude with a lot of contractors. Makes it seem like easy pickins for a hard-working Georgia boy like me. Thanks for the encouragement as well. BTW, where are you located?
Not sure if thats the same Shultz. He was a high end builder known for treating employees well and a bit of a legend for his disdain of building code officials. Lots of surf bums in the trades going back and forth along the coast.
Laughing about the "nobody works". Its worse in Hawaii. "Surfs up" is a legitemate holiday there.
I'm outside of Eureka. Had family in La Selva Beach years ago and spent a lot of time in your area. If you can survive 17 your ready for Nascar!
Tom
I've heard of the guy you're talking about, Tom. I think most of the local carpenters worked for him at one time or another.Surf's up is very much a frame of mind here, and I know it's more so in Hawaii. Lot's of folks here go back and forth, and most carpenters I know have worked over there at some point. Doesn't sound bad to me... I have been very fortunate to have not had to work "over the hill," thereby avoiding Hwy. 17 for the most part. It's actually a very nice drive, if you can do it when there isn't much traffic. These days that is very rare. I've never been to Eureka, but I understand it has a "social climate" a lot like Santa Cruz. Are you on the rainy side of the mountains?Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
Hi Allen,
Welcome to Breaktime, and thanks for bringing all the California posters out of the woodwork. I'm up here in Chico (about 100 miles North of Sacramento), so it's nice to see some more left coasters here.
As you have probably figured out you will find a wealth of information here, and good people. I am friends with a coupla guys that I worked with (interior finish) at New Urban who are from Santa Cruz. Both of their families are still there, and I will ask them for some names next time the come into the store. Heck, you never know...
darcy
so it's nice to see some more left coasters here.
We own this place now! They all went to bed three hours ago!
Thanks for the welcome, darcy. The left coasters do seem to be few. I don't know very many people here, but you're right, you never know!Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
Hey Allen,
Yes I'm on the rainy side. About 200 yards from the beach. The "social climate" (lol) is similar here. I remember there being a lot of interesting nonconformist types in the hills around SC. You'll see a lot of the same bumperstickers in both places!
Tom
<<Yes I'm on the rainy side. About 200 yards from the beach. The "social climate" (lol) is similar here. I remember there being a lot of interesting nonconformist types in the hills around SC. You'll see a lot of the same bumperstickers in both places!>>I thought so, Tom! You don't have to go into the hills to find them here, either, we're everywhere. I spent 3 years in Austin in the early 80s, and I like these wierd towns.Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
I started out doing restoration back in the late 70's in Brooklyn on the old Victorian brownstones, I even worked with The Old House Journal during that time when it was not much more than a neighborhood pamphlet. That's all I did for many years. I worked in preservation on some landmarks around NY and in conservation (a real different animal) for a while. Most of that was as a plasterer. Today I do mostly renovations and some new work in carpentry and building, mostly what you read about in these threads. It's what's around me. Once in a while though a job on an old house comes along or somebody gets wind that I can work in those lines and I'll get a call.
As you probably know, restoration-preservation is very different than any kind of renovation or new work. There are various degrees of it. In residential work you really have to do a good job of screening the customer, just as much as they should with finding a "restoration specialist". Most people don't know what they're getting into when it comes to restoration, but there are some who do. Some are even smarter and know more than you might, they just don't have the skills. Also there is a lot of research to do in finding out what you can and can't do, because you might be in the middle of an historic district, finding out what is appropriate etc etc. Detective work on what the house once was like can be a lot fun, finding clues, doing paint scrapings, testing old finishes,looking for where there might have been other windows or walls, are there old mahogany pocket doors in the walls behind that archway, why does the wood type change on the ballustrod as you go up, what certain rooms were used for 150-200 years ago. Find out what the customer means by 'restoration'. They really may mean renovation to look like restoration...most of the time I find this to be the case. People want to fit in the modern amenities to their 'restoration'.
Commercial work is different in that there is so much red tape to deal with. Planning boards, architects, preservationists, unions, state or federal budgets. Meetings meetings and more meetings, very much the same as regular commercial stuff, except you have the historic folk breathing down your neck. It is very rewarding though to see a statehouse or church or old theater beautifully restored and tell your Ma or kids just what your part of that was.
I think The Old House Journal still is up and running. You might check it out or do a Google search. Remember that in old houses it takes roughly 3 times longer than you thik it will. The ultimate compliment by the way is when somebody looks at your work and says that it looks beautiful and that it seem like nothing was ever really done.
,,,As you probably know, restoration-preservation is very different than any kind of renovation or new work. There are various degrees of it. In residential work you really have to do a good job of screening the customer, just as much as they should with finding a "restoration specialist". Most people don't know what they're getting into when it comes to restoration, but there are some who do. Some are even smarter and know more than you might, they just don't have the skills. Also there is a lot of research to do in finding out what you can and can't do, because you might be in the middle of an historic district, finding out what is appropriate etc etc. Detective work on what the house once was like can be a lot fun, finding clues, doing paint scrapings, testing old finishes,looking for where there might have been other windows or walls, are there old mahogany pocket doors in the walls behind that archway, why does the wood type change on the ballustrod as you go up, what certain rooms were used for 150-200 years ago. Find out what the customer means by 'restoration'. They really may mean renovation to look like restoration...most of the time I find this to be the case. People want to fit in the modern amenities to their 'restoration'. >>>Thanks for the reply, Jer. The research is definitely one of the things I enjoy, and have done some research on some old houses. I agree that most people want to have a "modern" old house. I've looked at the Old House Journal website, and I'm sure I'll be spending more time there. Thanks again.
Hey moon... I been in home repair and remod a long time,tying new and old together is a specialty in it's self,I love it best,since I don't know circular and compass work and carving so good...I stay with arches,straight and squared stair cases,installing beams,wall partitions,doors,room additions..etc...
DO WHAT YOU LOVE AND THE MONEY WILL FOLLOW!(it has for me)
SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
<<Hey moon... I been in home repair and remod a long time,tying new and old together is a specialty in it's self,I love it best,since I don't know circular and compass work and carving so good...I stay with arches,straight and squared stair cases,installing beams,wall partitions,doors,room additions..etc...DO WHAT YOU LOVE AND THE MONEY WILL FOLLOW!(it has for me)>>You're right about tying old and new together, coyote. Most guys hate working on old houses, but a few of us love it. And it's a totally different game than either new construction, or traditional remodeling. I like that last line. Hope to find out for myself.Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
moondance, Welcome to BT. I don't post often but reads alot. Been doing " Old house" work for about 29 yrs now. Most of my work comes from museums or folks who own old homes. The museums and the Historic Trust (national & state ) can sometimes be a real pain when "historic" conflicts with modern code. We work on mostly 16-1700's and do alot of actual broadaxe , adze , froe and yes, pitsaw ( just got an order for 200 locust split rails anyone interested?). We are in the process now of moving and restoring a sm. one room school house built in the 1820's. This is one that some of my guys have a problem with as the building is actually falling down we could build a new one using the same tools and techniques. but the HT wants to save this original . The price tag so far is about 40-50k , we could replicate it for about half that. Go figure?. About the only fun we have is using black powder to split white oak logs to make hand split clapboard. But seriously I wouldn't do anything else (actually I don't how to do anything else) like Piffen says it's neat to follow the trail or what I call reading the old house book from those who built it first. On the shore of the chesapeake bay; Good luck!! Bill D. Quality Woodchips
"The museums and the Historic Trust (national & state ) can sometimes be a real pain when "historic" conflicts with modern code."
This has and will be an issue, but there should be some relief for historic homes on local, state, and national registrys...The State Historic Building Code (California) should allow for some leeway when it comes to restoration of historic buildings...
You may need to become familiar with this section of the building code--and perhaps more importantly, help educate the Building Department about its existence and its application....
PNut.
EDITED TO ADD LINK TO HISTORICAL BUILDING CODE:
http://www.dsa.dgs.ca.gov/StateHistoricalBuildingSafetyBoard/2001chbc.htm
Edited 2/15/2005 7:39 pm ET by PNUTIII
<<<moondance, Welcome to BT... We work on mostly 16-1700's and do alot of actual broadaxe , adze , froe and yes, pitsaw ( just got an order for 200 locust split rails anyone interested?). We are in the process now of moving and restoring a sm. one room school house built in the 1820's... About the only fun we have is using black powder to split white oak logs to make hand split clapboard. But seriously I wouldn't do anything else (actually I don't how to do anything else) like Piffen says it's neat to follow the trail or what I call reading the old house book from those who built it first. On the shore of the chesapeake bay; Good luck!! Bill D. Quality Woodchips>>>Thanks for the welcome, Bill. Brother, I envy you! What you're doing sounds wonderful to me. I agree the part of the fun is learning what you can from the way the house is constructed. I love seeing how those early carpenters shaped the wood, and joined it together. You can even see design and workmanship flaws, and their results.Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
Just some random thoughts....
Find out how the local remodelers and local inspectors work current earthquake codes into remodeling projects (for example do you have to upgrade the whole house if you are doing over x $$$ of renovation.....
You might find a willing "summer Intern" up at the UCSC campus (though since they went to grades instead of the transcript system they may be getting typical students, not the motivated self driven types that used to go there)....
Lot's of money there, also in Monterey & Carmel (but the historic preservation/neighborhood building convenents in Carmel are VERY tough)....
Visit the Mystery Spot....
Hope you have an avocado tree in your back yard....
Lots of tract stuff went up in the 90's in the pastures that used to be between old Santa Cruz and the Campus; might be about ready for buildouts, upgrades, etc....
Look for Inky Cap (Coprinus Comatus) mushrooms in the woods....best eating wild mushroom there is, & impossible to mis-identify...
Go to Esalen at least once (it used to be open & free late at night, but too many people didn't respect the place...don't know how it's running these days...
Go camping in Little Sur at least once....
Check out the Flea market if it's still there....probably just junk dealers now like most of them but it used to be one of the best...
Ride the Big Dipper....
Good luck....I only built one ground up house in 30 years of carpentering....don't know how anyone stands building tracts & McMansions...
"Check out the Flea market if it's still there....probably just junk dealers now like most of them but it used to be one of the best..."Yeah, Its still there. Without it I would not have a good source for my work attire. I cant imagine paying 20 or more dollars for a new shirt and getting polyurethane glue on it the first time I wore it. In the spring there are lots of twenty somethings clearing out their closet of t shirts, sweatshirts, button down shirts. I occasionally splurge and pay 3 dollars for a really nice shirt but most are a dollar or less and much nicer than my good casual dress up clothes.A few professional vendors sell surplus aircraft co drill bits dirt cheap and it is always a good source of cheap salinas valley fruits and veggies.For anyone with kids it is a great place to get kids clothes dirt cheap and my 3yr old doesn't care if a toy truck is used and 25cents or brand new and many dollars more.After moving a year ago and having to acknowledge how much crap I had collected (and then had to get rid of) I had to vow not to go to the Skyview flea market anymore. There is just to much interesting junk to catch my eye.It is even open fridays now. I never could tolerate sundays. The crowds of shoppers makes me claustrophobic. Karl
Nice to hear the flea's still going strong...those guys with the aircraft bits must have had one heck of a load "fall off the truck"....they were there 20yrs back....
karl, I hear ya about the flea market. I go there often myself. My favorite T-shirt, that I wear all the time, is one I bought there for 25 cents. The chicks love that lady who sells women's clothes, all spread out on a tarp or something on the ground. Last week I bought five brand-new, heavy-duty Hanes T-shirts for $10. And I have a bunch of real Hawaiin shirts that I paid 6 or 8 bucks for. I like Sundays, though. More vendors and more people to watch.Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
Hi Allen, I know who you mean selling clothes off the tarp. My wife buys a lot from her. I think her name is helga.I wanted to go by 1/2" drill bits this saturday but I think it will be rained out.If I hear anyone looking for an old house carpenter I will send you an email.good luck,
karl
<<<Hi Allen, I know who you mean selling clothes off the tarp. My wife buys a lot from her. I think her name is helga.I wanted to go by 1/2" drill bits this saturday but I think it will be rained out.If I hear anyone looking for an old house carpenter I will send you an email.good luck,
karl>>>Hi Karl,Yep, that's her. She looks like a Helga. Has some great "Santa Cruz style" clothes for the chicks, all laid out on the ground. Yeah, it looks like another rain out. I like to go have a chicken sandwich at the snack bar, and sit in the sun and read the newspaper, but that ain't happening this weekend, don't look like. Do y'all ever go to the farmer's market at Cabrillo College on Saturday morning? I know you've been. Everyone has. That's a must do during the summer. I'm from Georgia and love to eat boiled peanuts. Well, lo and behold, that's also a favorite snack in Thailand. I've spoken to several Thai ladies who were buying peanuts who said they cook them just like we do. And there's a Thai family of farmers over in Modesto that sell fresh, green peanuts at the farmer's market when they're in season in the fall. Baby, I buy 'em and boil for a month or so! Eating boiled peanuts and watching the Georgia bulldogs on TV is almost like being back in Georgia. Thanks for the offer on the email. I'm working for a guy up in Soquel on a McMansion that will take another year to build. I hope to slide right off of that into my own thing. But I'm always willing to go look at an old house, or talk "old house" with folks, so send 'em my way. Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
<<<just some random thoughts....
Find out how the local remodelers and local inspectors work current earthquake codes into remodeling projects (for example do you have to upgrade the whole house if you are doing over x $$$ of renovation.....
You might find a willing "summer Intern" up at the UCSC campus (though since they went to grades instead of the transcript system they may be getting typical students, not the motivated self driven types that used to go there)....
Lot's of money there, also in Monterey & Carmel (but the historic preservation/neighborhood building convenents in Carmel are VERY tough)....>>>Thanks for the reply and the good advice, JR. I'll remember that about Carmel if I ever look at any work there.<<<Visit the Mystery Spot....>>>I've lived here 2 1/2 years, and I haven't been to the Mystery Spot. I'll go now.<<<Hope you have an avocado tree in your back yard...>>> I don't really have a back yard since I live in an apartment, but there are lots of eucalyptus trees beside my building. <<<Look for Inky Cap (Coprinus Comatus) mushrooms in the woods....best eating wild mushroom there is, & impossible to mis-identify...>>>I haven't done that, either, but apparently mushrooms are quite a big deal here. I'll put it on my list.<<<Go to Esalen at least once (it used to be open & free late at night, but too many people didn't respect the place...don't know how it's running these days...
Go camping in Little Sur at least once....>>>D*mn, haven't done these, either. Also now on the list.<<<Check out the Flea market if it's still there....probably just junk dealers now like most of them but it used to be one of the best...Ride the Big Dipper....>>>OK, now here are a couple of things I *have* done. I love riding the
Big Dipper, and the flea market is still one of the best I've ever been to. Lots of great deals on clothes, as karl said, and a fine way to spend a lazy Sunday morning. I like Sunday the best, I like the crowds. I helped a good friend landscape her entire yard with plants we bought for great prices from an older Hispanic lady who is there every Sunday, and I always come home with some neat things I got super cheap. But the great thing about any flea market is the people, and the vibe there is very cool. <<<Good luck....I only built one ground up house in 30 years of carpentering....don't know how anyone stands building tracts & McMansions...>>>Thanks, Jr. I'm working on a McMansion now, but the folks are great, and hopefully this job will carry me right on in to my own gig. I've spent enough time on this site to realize I'm not ready, from a business education standpoint, to jump in yet. I still have a bunch of books to read, and questions to ask, and honestly, I don't have the necessary cash to do it right this time. One thing that I'm definitely picking up on, from the regular posters here, is that is a business, not a hobby, and I have to approach it that way. I have some things I want to accomplish, and I'm going into business to make the money to do those things. The fact that it will be something I love doing is an added bonus. I should add "the forum" to my signature, because the wisdom and knowledge found here is truly a blessing from God. Thanks to all of you who've responded.Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
as much as my wife tells me it's a business, and even though right now I'm construction management not labor, so I'm sorta being business-like, I've never treated it as a "business"....worked for a week a while back with a HO in over his head on a renovation without ever discussing what the pay rate was...I liked the cut of his jib....wife thought I was nuts, but after we worked together for a week then we talked, made a deal, and went on working together for several months.....
As you do work, keep a DETAILED list of what you do and how long it takes. This way, you will build up an experience list that will help you tell prospective customers how much it will REALLY cost.
If I had contractors that were only 15 to 40% over, I would be estatic. Everyone I've hired has been at least 100% over the estimate. Right now, I'm really feed up with it.
Be sure to know all the local historic districts, ordinances, etc, and keep up with the changes. If you can help homeowners with tax credits and the like it will really set you apart. You might want to consider being an officer or something with a local preservation group. Much exposure that way.
Be sure to know subs that can do these things (or learn them yourself):
Plaster repair
Slate roof and box gutter work
Duplicate moldings
Lead paint abatement
Window reglazing and repair
Asbestos abatement
And if you are lucky enough to have architectural salvage places, visit them regularly to know what is on hand. Finally, know which architects can do appropriate design work for additions. Become close friends with them.
Good luck! I hope you encourage more people into the field.
Everyone I've hired has been at least 100% over the estimate. Right now, I'm really feed up with it.
Reminds me of a funny story. Hired this old hippy type fella a few years back to do some window work for me. The kind of guy who would still be sitting there at woodstock if old Yasgur didn't make him leave to plow the field. Left him alone in a house when I went on vacation, and told him to have the downstairs done when I returned.
So I come home and go to the house. He's grinning ear to ear, very proud of himself. Let me see what you've done, I say. He brings me into the living room and shows me the old window stops (the kind with the fixing bead in it). The round edge was perfect. He tells me how he used these antique carpetry tools to take off the paint and shape it by hand. Now these stops were throw aways. They typically just get broken off and we make new ones. It takes about 15 minutes per window.
So I say, let's see all the finished windows. He looks dejected, heartbroken. What's wrong, I ask. It seems he worked the whole week and all he did was the stops in the LR. But he did them perfectly. Only 100% over the estimate? Lucky it isn't 1000%, which would have been the case with my hippy if I hadn't sent him packing. Nice guy, but there's a limit to everything.
SHG
<<<Lucky it isn't 1000%, which would have been the case with my hippy if I hadn't sent him packing. Nice guy, but there's a limit to everything.>>>Yeh but at least you didnt have to spend half yer day in court with him : )
a,,,The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Shg, I had a California dreamer come in and work like that with me for a day or two. He was visibly upset when I had to let him go. There's always a balance between quantity and quality. Some guys just can't grasp that notion.
That California dreamer jaded me. Ever since then, I refused to hire California dudes.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
What I don't understand is, don't contractors understand that PRICE IS HOW SCARCE RESOURCES ARE ALLOCATED?!?!?!. It does not matter to me how long they take, or what their profit margin is, or anything else. It is not my responsibility to see that their mortgage is paid, or their taxes, or anything else. All that matters is WHETHER OR NOT IT IS WORTH THE MONEY TO ME. And the only way to judge that is to know the price before hand. If they do more work, or are not efficient, or can't plan the work flow, don't expect me to pay for it.Sorry to rant. I just got a bill for twice what I was expecting. Got to find the lawyers now.
<<<As you do work, keep a DETAILED list of what you do and how long it takes. This way, you will build up an experience list that will help you tell prospective customers how much it will REALLY cost.>>>That's great advise, BSayer. I plan to keep a journal of sorts detailing everything I do, and how long it takes.<<<Be sure to know all the local historic districts, ordinances, etc, and keep up with the changes. If you can help homeowners with tax credits and the like it will really set you apart. You might want to consider being an officer or something with a local preservation group. Much exposure that way.>>>I've thought of all of these things. More good advise. I plan to be involved in the preservation community, not just for the business contacts, but because I like old houses and have an interest in preserving them.<<<Be sure to know subs that can do these things (or learn them yourself):
Plaster repair
Slate roof and box gutter work
Duplicate moldings
Lead paint abatement
Window reglazing and repair
Asbestos abatement>>>Thanks for this list! I'll copy and paste this into my "notes."<<<And if you are lucky enough to have architectural salvage places, visit them regularly to know what is on hand.>>>That's one thing I need to find out about, being in a new area. <<<Finally, know which architects can do appropriate design work for additions. Become close friends with them.>>>That, too. <<<Good luck! I hope you encourage more people into the field.>>>Thanks for the encouragement! It means a lot, from all of you.
Allen in Santa Cruz
We do a lot of renovation/rehab work. Materials are generally not that hard to get from a good full service lumber yard, architectural salvagers, and almost anything else can be made by a custom woodworking shop or yourself.
Restoration/rehab work is of the highest demand general carpentry projects. You will want experienced help. It ain't comparable to new construction. There will be many structural issues, find a good structural engineer or architect. Structural solutions are not something you want or should make. Estimating is extremely difficult. We usually figure 2 to 1 vs new work of the same scope. Unexpected extras and additions to the work are a given. Be sure to structure a strategy to get paid for this work. If at all possible DO NOT allow the owner to live in the project while it's under construction. No matter what you say or how you attempt to explain it, they cannot fathom the disruption to their lives, they will alter and extend your schedule and they will almost never be friendly at the end of the project. Because of the former get as fully paid up as possible as the end of the project approaches. Good luck, there's a reason not many contractors do complex or high end restoration/rehab work.
I think you got the right idea, old home restoration isn't something a lot of guys want to do. I still do it though I'm semi-retired. You will run into things that a lot of people have never seen. Horsehair plaster, hand split laths, combination of balloon and timber framing here in southern NJ.Many of the homes I worked on have the studs mortised and tenoned into the beams.An example of a typical 150 year plus home would have studs that vary from 2 1/2" to 4" wide and 4" or 5" deep. The beams are generally at least 8"x8". Stud centers were not consistent, maybe 15" or 20" etc.
4"x6" x 36" angle braces with tenons from corner timbers to the beam for lateral bracing. These braces were pegged and draw bored. Lots of old bottles ,dishes etc.
Almost all of these old homes had no wall sheathing, just clapboards nailed on.The clapboards were not beveled , they were the same thickness from top to bottom, about 7/8" thick.You will run into a lot of stuff you wish you hadn't, like lead plumbing and knob and tube wiring.
Good luck moondance.
mike
<<<I think you got the right idea, old home restoration isn't something a lot of guys want to do. I still do it though I'm semi-retired. You will run into things that a lot of people have never seen. Horsehair plaster, hand split laths, combination of balloon and timber framing here in southern NJ.Many of the homes I worked on have the studs mortised and tenoned into the beams.An example of a typical 150 year plus home would have studs that vary from 2 1/2" to 4" wide and 4" or 5" deep. The beams are generally at least 8"x8". Stud centers were not consistent, maybe 15" or 20" etc.
4"x6" x 36" angle braces with tenons from corner timbers to the beam for lateral bracing. These braces were pegged and draw bored.>>> Thanks for the reply, Mike. I've worked on some pretty old places, and have run into the hand plit laths, horsehair plaster, and other things you mention. They're all different, too. So much more interesting than new construction.<<<Almost all of these old homes had no wall sheathing, just clapboards nailed on.The clapboards were not beveled , they were the same thickness from top to bottom, about 7/8" thick.You will run into a lot of stuff you wish you hadn't, like lead plumbing and knob and tube wiring.>>>Funny how much of that old stuff was just left in place when they "modernized." I guess that was the easy thing to do, but some attics are full of that stuff.
Allen in Santa Cruz