Uh……….J.P. Morgan Chase just bought Bear Stearns for $2/ share.
Anyone else a little concerned now? Bear Stearns was trading last May at $160 and as recent as last week was near $80.
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no,i'm not concerned my buddy george says everthings fine,i shouldn't worry and he's going back to looking for wmd's.maybe we should have kept some of that cash that we found of sadams.
can you imagine if i guy owned [and alot of people did] 1000 shares at 160.00 [=160,000.00] is now worth 320.00! or to put it in terms i grasp my 160k will fill my car up 3 times.
good thing theres no inflation or recession going on...........................larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Cnbc World is on right now. Everything (world markets) is showing red except for items tied to precious metals (especially gold).
know a guy that for the last 15 years every investment dollar he had,he put into gold. now for the last 14 years that looked pretty stupid as it pretty much stayed the same.i thought i was smarter investing in real estate.
wonder who looks stupid now,maybe i can pick up a part time job from him to help him carry his gold to market......[ i think alot of it was in some sort of gold stock?]if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I have real estate and a little silver. I'm kicking myself right now for now buying more silver.
I heard a story earlier today about 2 guys that each owned about 10% of Bear Stearns or roughly $1 billion. They each lost over $800 million through this.
With that being said, losing $159,680 doesn't sound so bad. It's all about perspective.
This is going to really mess up a lot of people. I'm glad I'm not one of them.
Edited 3/17/2008 5:47 pm by boiler7904
Edited 3/17/2008 5:50 pm by boiler7904
They each lost over $800 million through this.
Yea but they still have $200 million! I can live on that but I cant live on that $320 that the other guy has left.
I know a guy that works/worked for Bear Stearns, has been there for 15 + years, I know he had a large amount of stocks in the company, hope he isnt working near any windows.
Doug
Yeah, I'm a little concerned.....about my job.
What we are seeing happen in housing market will likely soon happen to the US stock market. The great influx of money into the market from baby boomers nearing retirement is going to soon end as retirees put their money in safer places. Based on the law of supply and demand stock prices are going to crash.
and yet the repossion rate is only1.8%
There was a bubble in housing just like the stock market of a few years ago.
This too will pass!!!
The story that the news media is telling all that the world is coming to an end.
Look deaper into what is happening to all of the US and you will find that the RE market is not collasping
frammer52,
Please do look deeper yourself. Read a little history too will you please?
The great depression stared under very similar conditions.. banks were deregulatd and they invested depositors moeny in the stock market.. the stock market fell, banks went broke and the crash happened..
Now We have the fed giving our tax dollars to investment firms that have a record of losing those funds!
The regulations are in place for sound reasons.. when they are removed errors occur and we all pay the price.. The depression too long ago for you? how about the savings and loan scandle?
Do you think that because this presidents name is Bush and not Hoover the same thing isn't going to happen?
frenchy: right now we are still talking only a default rate of 1.8% on mortgages.
Bear Stearns was experiencing a run on cash last week
The fed steppped in and guarenteed the notes of this investment bank.
The reason, to calm down investors.
Just like the irrational exuberience of the late 1990's.
The fear mongers were predicting the collapse of the total market.
Unless people get carried away by these predictions, things will work out.
I'm sorry for your personal situation, but the former fed head is totally responbsible for the irrational behavior in the mortgage markets.
frammer52
It's called faith.. Few people in the world have much faith in the currant government. That's the cost of of seeking weapons of mass destruction that never existed and other policies where America's credibility is called to task..
Now I know why you go by the name 'Frenchy".
The name fits him well. I sure I had the knowledge he has.
I worked as an automotive mechanic for 18 years.
Raced motorcycles for 10 years.
Worked as a lab tech for a eye doctor for 9 years and have been doing remodeling for the last 7 years.
My father spent his life in the banking business and my wife has been employed by the same back for the past 30 years.
And I don't know a 1/4 of what he does.
Russell
"Welcome to my dumb world"
>>Now I know why you go by the name 'Frenchy".And it seems the name Dogmeat12 has a certain significance, also.
Remember Mary Dyer, a Christian Martyr (Thank you, Puritans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_DyerMay your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
probably means he knows the realities of being a small business owner.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sir, it would help your outlook on life if you stopped reading the far left blog websites, and started thinking for yourself.
There might not have been any WMD's when we attacked Iraq but, we did get rid of a dictator who killed in excess of 1.4 million of his own pop.. A man that let his sons rape and kill at whim. Aman who reintroduced chemical warfare into battle.
Maybe we were wrong in starting this war, but how many peoplpe did he have to kill before we intervened? 2,3,4million?
"Aman who reintroduced chemical warfare into battle."Yep, with the help of Ronald Reagan and Donald Rumsfeld no less. Oh well, why dwell on a tedious little subject like that, right?
frammer52,
So you have the CIA take Saddam out if you don't like him..
Frankly if we spent as much energy hunting for Osama Bin Ladin as we've spent vilifying The Clintons, Osama would be in our prison by now..
Maybe we were wrong in starting this war, but how many peoplpe did he have to kill before we intervened?
Come on Frammer your justifying the whole thing with some foolish argument that we are ridding the world of an evil dictator, thats fine, but then when are we going after all the other evil dictators? Cause there are others you know?
I agree that Frenchy may be a bit overboard/simplistic with his blame of the current administration but he ain't the only one on here drinking the Kool-aid!
Doug
frammer52
That default rate is where it is because most banks can't put anymore bad debt on their books. I've spent too much time lately with members of the banking industry to believe any such nonsense.
They are walking around with hollow eyes and blank stares knowing that if the full details of their balance sheets came out they'd likely be fired and possibly go to jail..
Many bankers list homes in default as underperforming loans rather than nonperforming loans. or they talk homeowners to make nominal payments simply to keep from foreclosing.
Nah! The real circumstances of our fincial condition is too scary for public knowledge..
Less than 20% of all home loans were of the variety known as subprime loans.
20% of these are potential problems according to underwriters.
Frenchy stop beliving in conspircies. Stop drinking the cool aid. Think, unemployment is still at a low4.8%Or4.9%.
They all aren't Mcdonalds employees. They have to get customers from somewhere.
You live in a state that is close to a depression. I am sorry about that. I live in upstate NY. We worked through the 1990's at a higher than the rest of the countries unemploment rate. We lost15% of our population.
I live in a city of 60000 people, that in 1970 had close to 100000.
Mi. will recover, it just will take some time. In the meantime, the rest of the country is not that bad.
frammer52.
Well for one thing I live in Minnesota not Michigan.. MN not MI.
But unemployment number mean little.. Most of those I know who have retained their jobs report incomes dramatically down.. that is supported by the state's estimated shortfall. Many of my fellow salesmen who have sold equipment and supplies to the housing industry are either out of working or working at jobs which pay a fraction of previous earnings..
In addition a contractor with income well into six figures is now bagging at a local grocery store for enough money to buy groceries. So the unemployment rate remains the same..
I just spoke on the phone to someone in the industry who used to get 60 to 75 billable hours a week he's now down to 25, but the employment rate remains the same..
His income used to come up short of meeting his expenses but he was able to keep currant by refinancing his house every other year. Not anymore, he owes more on the house than currant market conditions warrant. He's lost over $200,000.00 in equity in the last 2 years.. (he's in California)
I looked at the want ads in the Sunday paper. and there were just six pages.. total.. for all jobs. Previously there used to be more than 10 pages just for sales positions.. I'm on the internet first thing every morning and again in the afternoon. looking for and applying for whatever..
I check in regularly with the states unemployment center seeing if any jobs are there. I'm on the phone much of the rest of the time networking with those who are still working.
MY Brother-in-law, a partner in a major architect firm gave up that partnership because of such miserable prospects and now deals with accounts for another company by flying around the country just to keep a decent income.
My sister had to come to me to borrow money to make a token payment to keep her house.. she's been out of work longer than I have.
But maybe you are right.. gold is still cheap at ,... well OK oil set a record price, oops, but at least corn is still well er,, OK Copper? Hmmm..
OK so prices are up dramtically
The inflation rate is low I mean just go to the grocery store look at how cheap milk is,,
You're right I should stop worring!
Frenchy-- I love to bash bush as much as the last guy------
but if your friend wasn't taking cash to the bank in wheelbarrow fulls on 75 billable hours a week----if he wasn't even meeting expenses on 75 billable hours a week----it ain't W's fault--it's your friends faultHarsh--but true.
stephen
was thinking the same thing
75 hrs/week and still short..? No one to blame except himself. He's got personal finace skill problems.
I believe that is the biggest problem with all that is going on in the states now. Most people live way over what they make and need.
Who's at fault? All the ones living over there heads.
The good books says we will pay for greed and gluteny.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
Love of money is the root of all evil. As a society we've decided it's more important to be wealthy than to be happy. And in many people's minds, wealth is signified by material things -- bling -- rather than financial independence. It explains why a couple working at McDonalds sees nothing wrong with signing mortgage papers for a $750K house.
I agree with you. I think several people in this debate would be alot happier if they would give up the chase for the big bucks. Life is to short to be chasing $$$$ to try to be happy
Russell
"Welcome to my simple world"
<<< Love of money is the root of all evil. As a society we've decided it's more important to be wealthy than to be happy. And in many people's minds, wealth is signified by material things>>I could not agree more.I work for Bear Stearns. My income is down 40% over what I have been earning in the past few years. My house is about to be foreclosed on. With the recent problems at Bear Stearns I have a high probability of losing my job. Yet you won't hear me whine or complain. I have 5 great kids and a wife who love me. Nothing else matters in the long run. The current problems with our economy are due to American's living above their means, not any politician or greedy corporate executives as Frenchy suggests.
My means would be better were the illegal aliens gone from America, if everytime I got a call from a corporation, it wasn't from BFE or the Phillipines.
America for Americans.
Catfish,,
I sure understand that sentiment.. especially now since good paying jobs are going to be getting really scarce.
However we need to step back and look at a bigger picture.. How much of that illegal immigration was caused by greedy corporations trying to profit on low wage immigrents? I suspect most of it..
They came here illegally sure but under some pretty big incentives and America didn't offer them a way to get here legally to fill those jobs the corporate excuetives wanted filled cheaply..
Once here most of them worked hard and diligently. They've become members of our community buying homes and raising families just like so many other immigrents before them have..
Kick them out now and we are punishing the weak for the benefit of a few greedy coprorate excuetives.
It's complex isn't it? The word entrapment comes to mind.. there are rules what a undercover officer can do to temp someone into breaking the law.. Why aren't there rules where greedy excuetives are punished for tempting illegals to come here?
The greedy corps. that employ illegals are mostly small business.
ag. and const. are last I new the 2 biggest employers of illegals.
Maybe if our schools would encourage kids in school that working with their hands is as valuable as working with their mind, would help const. cure cronic shortage of willing workers.
frammer 52
I'm glad you said that.. saved me from having to.. yes a contractor hires illegals to profit from hard working guys who have no legal protection.. Why other contractors aren't screaming bloody murder I can't figure out. However it's been going on for decades. So by now it's the system..
As to your second statement,, well we are in complete agreement there as well!schools teach academics not work skills..
Why don't you join your local school board and encourage them to do so? As well as enourage others who post here to do the same..
Successful contractors who started out working with their hands is a mighty powerful inducement for schools to adapt something other than a purely academic approach to education..
Nothing is more accessable than local school boards.. you could have a very powerful influeance if you were successful.
Do we want people here whose first act is a felony? Where we take the vote of felons, but these LAWBREAKERS will have a vote?
I'm all for punishing corporations who hire illegals, they are the root cause of this invasion.
Catfish,
Is that the punishment you'd like to dole out to those who were forced to cross the border illegally?
You might have a good solution there to the present dilemma..
Give them citizenship but base that on a commitment of a felony.. thus they can't vote but they can pay taxes and enjoy all the other benefits of being an American.. Their children can vote and if they do extraordinary things for the community they can be pardoned and vote like any other felon who's pardoned..
It all goes back to our govern. not enforcing laws already on the books.
Has anyone in the last 10 years had anyone fill out an I9 form?
Yes contr. and farmers bear responsibility to not hire illegals.
In our area, ICE is finally enforcing the laws.
On another note, has anyone tried to call and report illegals?
They have voice mail system, not encouraging for someone triing to report.
Can't do it annon.
frammers..
Well long before contractors were hiring farmers were hiring illegals.. encouraging them to come north to harvest our crops.. Contractors looked over and saw farmers getting away with it and so on oand so on..
The reason for the voice mail is nobody wants to know.. because we don't have the people hired to deal with the problem..
doc- Ethnic Cleansing - That's EXACTLY what the Brown Berets & other Reconquista groups like MECHA are striving for in CA right now.Just last week an "official" from a Mexican consulate in San Diego said "This has been & will be Mexico, again".Should Americans view such a statement as anything other than hostile? I don't think so.Don't forget El Presidente Calderon stmt last year that "Wherever there is a Mexican, it is Mexico" Both of those stmts pretty much summarize Mexico's intent on pushing their poverty our way so they don't have to address it themselves.
Still think illegal immigration is okay?
See Oklahoma House Bill 1804. They know how to put a stop to this.
Edited 3/19/2008 10:57 am ET by catfish
What do you think they'd do if you crossed into Mexico illegaly? No one was forced to cross the border.
Giving them citizenship is exactly the wrong thing to do. Did you not learn from the Indians that befriending a foreign people is not a good idea?
catfish,
Where's your smiley face? That was funny, are you telling me you didn't intend it to be?
OK no one forces you to go to work either.. but you do so to earn money.. oh you may speed or run a stop sign on the way to work but no one wants to take your home away from you because you did..
You see I had a customer who came here illegally about 15 years ago.. he worked his way up to owning a pretty decent sized construction company. (even bought a telehandler from me) had as many as 15 employees about 1/2 were Americans. He owned a house and had kids here..
Someone turned him in and eventually forced him and his wife to leave the country.. his kids stayed here with relatives but he's in Mexico now.. Without his income to make house payments he lost his house.. The Kids are Americans so they can't be forced out of the country.
As for your comment about the indians befriending foriegners that was priceless..
Thank you.. :-)
What tribe are you a member of?
I am a Choctaw Indian. My family walked the Trail of Tears. That makes me an Oklahoma Choctaw (which we prefer) not Mississippi Choctaw.
Is sending money to Mexico different than sending it to China?
Illegal is the key to it all. Come here legally, I will welcome you. Sneak in and suffer the consequences.
I won't even say "some of my best friends are Mexican" :)
catfish,
Anytime there is extreme wealth next to extreme poverty there is potential trouble.. look at places like Palestine and Israel.
The safety valve is access to jobs.. crossing that border means a much better income. So instead of trouble makers you have peaceful people who want what we have to offer.. They are willing to do jobs which Americans won't.
Over time Mexico stands a decent chance of becoming economically stronger. When that happens America will be better if they are.. There will be a market for our products in Mexico and things from Mexico will have value here.. Trade is always good. In addition Mexico will be able to shoulder some of the burden which America carries alone..
Nothing is perfect..
but it's important to find a workable solution rather than simple knee jerk reactions..
Finally I could agree with you completely if America was fair about immigration..
Last I heard was that if you applied for a legal access to America the wait was over 13 years.. Or you could take your chances and pay some coyote to sneak you across..
America doesn't need the crops harvested in 13 years they need them harvested now. Washing those dishes won't wait 13 years nor will cleaning those motel rooms..
I hear all sorts of numbers, 10 million 20 million illegals.. If we react poorly and got them all out now we couldn't afford the bus tickets! Not to mention the jobs that wouldn't get done..
That the jobs get done? Well gosh now isn't that the most important thing.
More important to me is a living wage. Twice in the last 5 years a swarm of illegals has came in to undercut the local wages. They work unlicensed uninsured and send their money to Mexico.
I changed the scope of my work twice to make a living wage and try to sustain a business.
Finally went to work for someone doing government work. I can't live 20 people in a house. And yes I saw it. When the illegals down the street moved there was a stack of mattresses 6 feet high.
Oh and when the work is done they move on. Coming soon to a city near you.
catfish,
Yes that's true! I know it happened..
But tell me did you talk to President Reagan and ask him to do anything about your troubles? I'm sure major corporations who made big contributions spoke to their congressmen and the president about the high cost of labor.. How the best solution was to turn a blind eye to illegals because they held wages down and that kept inflation pressures in check..
There was a workable solution earlier during President Bush's term.. If that had been implimentedthe flood of immigrents wouldn't have been so bad.. Plus we could have actaully done something about it.
But too many people felt that the critical thing was to punish people who's just come here for a job..
They didn't want to say, what's done is done and we need to move on..
I don't know why.. the longer we don't have a solution to the problem the worse things will get..
What's more important? punishment or solutions?
No nothing will ever be done because the rich make to much off illegals. Same as the war on drugs ( a civil war) did nothing but grow law enforcement, who of course don't want it to end.
BTW, don't you have anything better to do than debate me?
Catfish,
First thing in the AM I check all the sites looking for a job.. by mid morning I'm calling and networking those I haven't touched in the past couple of weeks . Waiting for return phone calls I have plenty of time..
New jobs tend to show up around noonish and I quickly scan them and the afternoon I've got time to kill.. Sometimes I risk missing phone calls and do a little work on the house. Final job posting seem to come around 4:00 pick up the wife arounf 5:30 and then do a little more work on the house..
Getting pretty limited since I can't spend any more money untill I have a job..
Yeah took me 2 months to find a job out of town for 15 an hour and 15 per diem, plus a apartment on the MS Gulf Coast.
Oh, I was one of the uncounted unemployed.
you are a little schetcty on your history.
During reagan's term in office, there was a immagrant reform bill passed with the help of that ultra conserv ative Kennendy.
The problem is that it was never enforced.
Democrats during the Clinton years, pressed the gov. to not enforce.
The thinking then was that these illegals would become part of the democrat party.
Follow the money, large donation to the Clintons as now were from wall street.
No longer is big bussiness or wealthy individuals, supporting the republican party.
This means that the old expression that the rich and bussiness support the repl. is no longer accurate.
Big bussiness wants the gov. to pay for health care.
This wuold result in the largest tax increase in US history, paid for by middle class.
By the way, did you know that there are now more people collecting from gov. than are paying into?
frammer52
Yeh, I think your history roughly correct.. little bias there I'll ignore rather than correct.. I'm sure I won't change your mind.
Clintons like Bush and other republicans have their donators on wall street and in healthcare and legal profession..
Surprise! surprise! surprise! rich people want to influeance politicians.. A fair number make donations to both parties figuring that way it doesn't matter who they have access to..
Only Oil and Tobabcco have been loyal republicans.. Oops I forgot to mention defence contractors and gun manufactures. The rest will do business with whoever is in power..
Your final factoid is wrong..
That assumes that those recieving aren't paying into at the same time.. retirees for example can be paying taxes on earnings while recieving medicare or social security. Nor does that count the military who recieve a paycheck but also pay taxes.. (Oh and same for civil servants)
frenchy-- it has never been my goal for my children to work their way through college----- frankly i have doubts if that is remotely feasible. my wife and i had a goal--from before the kids were born----that they would attend a specific grade school and a specific high school- that was OUR responsibility-----they were raised with the understanding that they WERE going to college--and that as a family--we would make that happen
but once they graduate from high school--it's time to share some of the burden.Our goal as a family--is that both sons will graduate--without owing a dime--educated and debt free
which gives them options that their educated but, debt ridden peers will not have----free to volunteer with the peace corps---or HFH
or to take that dream job writing for Rock and Ice magazine----even if it only pays 14K a year--------fre to try things out that would be impossible owing huge student loansto make that happen---they have learned that there a trade offs---for example--the son that is the distance runner--- he will never achieve his peak athletic potential--because there is no way he can work 12-14 hours a day in the sun AND train effectively after work
so---each august he returns to his team--in worse shape than he was in MAY--after a summer of working in the sun each day.but the knowledge that those trade offs MUST be made, and that he MUST pay his own way in the world---is probably worth more than the book education----and certainley worth MUCH more than the missed "mentorship"
stephen
Stephen,
OK good for you..
I don't see where you and I have a problem.. we both want the best for our kids.. Like you my daughter attended the schools I choose for her rather than local ones. that was our deal and we paid for it*..
I simply said that because I couldn't pay full boat for my daughter she missed out on the possiblitity of being a Intern which would have gotten her several steps up on those who did work as interns.. She did attend the University but because she wanted to live on campus she went to one distant from us to do so..
All of those choices were hers.. my only insistance was that she go to college. I paid for her entry and books, tuition etc.. first year She paid for room and board.. From then on she paid a lot of her own way or student loaned much of the rest of it.. I did support her and even bought her a new car.. Plus she never came home and left with out daddy reachinginto the wallet for whatever I had plus filling up her car and running it through the car wash. Her mom made sure she had plenty of the girl things and I made sure her refrigerator groaned under the weight of snacks and stuff.
What I know is that she wound up owing 40,000 when she graduated.. That's more than 1/2 paid for but we've only paid a few thousand of it. The rest she's paid..
* my other daughter choose to attend the local high school which in hind site we really regret. However she's in college now and has a similar deal to her sister..
no wonder we're both broke. Well not broke but badly bent.
Edited 3/19/2008 1:14 pm ET by catfish
I simply said that because I couldn't pay full boat for my daughter she missed out on the possibility of being a Intern which would have gotten her several steps up on those who did work as interns..
Frenchy, don't take this as a diss towards your daughter, I don't know her, don't have anything against her but did it ever occur to you that she is where she is because that's where she's meant to be? Maybe if she had gone to an ivy league school she would still be where she is. Remember, your not a Bush so even if she had gone to Yale its doubtful that she would have ended up as the owner of the Texas Rangers. Maybe, just maybe she is exactly where her abilities lead her, that's not a bad thing, some of us are meant to be presidents of fortune 500 companies and some of us are meant to be carpenters.
I wouldn't mind trying my hand at brain surgery, only thing stopping me is I cant stand the site of needles and my grades! Otherwise who knows....... We all have limits. Thats not to mean that we shouldnt shot/strive for what we want.
I had every opportunity to go to college right out of high school, free, my choice of school.....I would have flunked out after the first semester back then. I decided to go when I was 30 and made some pretty damn good grades, all that while raising 3 boys and working to put a roof over our heads. My position has nothing to do with where I went to school, who paid for it, or how much I owed when I got done. It had to do with my abilities/limits/goals.............
Doug
DougU
You need to go back and reread what was said.. I will repeat, She is doing very well, has had 3 promotions and her income has more than doubled since graduation..
Now if I'd been able to pay her full costs. she would have been able to take the intern job she was offered which means she would have started a step above where she is right now and been in line for possible promotion to the top spot..
At best now she might make a VP which is in real terms about 20 steps below the CEO.
I went to college on the GI bill after two tours in Vietnam . MY grades were average because I was working over 70 hours a week and stilll carring a full load and grades don't matter in getting hired in my profession. All you need is that stupid sheepskin..
You know what Frenchy, I had a long winded reply to you but I just deleted it, I'd have to really give a shid to argue this point with you and quite frankly, I don't
Glad your daughter is where she is and all that good stuff but...........
Doug
"Over time Mexico stands a decent chance of becoming economically stronger."I might agree with you but for one important factor - Mexico still has a class based society. The "white" Mexicans see themselves as the ruling class and the politics reflect this. It doesn't matter how hard a Mestizo works in Mexico, unless you were born into the upper classes you will not be accepted in politics, housing, or business.One of the attractions of the U.S.A. is that the class differences are less important, and smart people who work hard generally have upward mobility.
TJK,
All true enough but you are assuming that structure will remain. The very exposure of so many illegals who are returning or have returned to Mexico will put pressure on that bias..
FRENCHY TAKES COMMAND OF ANOTHER THREAD.
Russell
So instead of trouble makers you have peaceful people who want what we have to offer.. They are willing to do jobs which Americans won't.
Frenchy, a few post back you asked Catfish where his smiley face was, remember? Now I have to ask you, where is yours?
Do you really believe this drivel that you post? Please don't site the few Mexicans that you know personally and use that for your comprehensive data for all of the illegals crossing the boarder.
You have been shown countless links that contradict your stance/position/beliefs on the type of people that are crossing the boarders to get here, yet you refuse to acknowledge any of them.
I know that I'm beating my head against a brick wall for even posting this but damn man, when you going to get it!
Doug
DougU
Let's see what we can agree on.
some illegals are good,
some are bad.
with me so far?
So the only question that remains is what percentage are in each group..
go ahead tell me your opinion.. because in the end it amounts to just that..
There are no real numbers because unless you have a secret mind reading device unknown to the rest of the world you cannot possibly know..
As for links to sites which proport to be unbiased I first need a link to a site which verifies the valitidy of the claims.
with me so far?
So the only question that remains is what percentage are in each group..
go ahead tell me your opinion.. because in the end it amounts to just that..
There are no real numbers because unless you have a secret mind reading device unknown to the rest of the world you cannot possibly know..
Frenchy, this is why I don't go to the tavern, has something to do with that tag line that Andy E used to use, but here goes nothing;
To make a statement that there are no real numbers ridiculous, you're burring your head so far in the sand that there is no chance of ever seeing day light. YES there are numbers to verify the information, you refuse to read the data that has been shown you, I wont even bother to link any of it anymore, I know you wont read it or you will dismiss it cause it don't validate your point, its easier for you to stay in the dark then open your eyes or mind, makes your argument that much more believable.........at least to you!
My college major was mathematics, with an emphasis on statistics. I know how to read those stats and how to interpret them, I know that data can be "altered" to make ones own argument but when the same people that you align yourself with comes out with data that disproves everything you said up above then maybe its time to actually open your mind up to the possibility that you may be wrong, I know that's a hard pill for you to swallow but damn man, wake up! The info has been provided to you time and time again.
Quit trying to sell
Doug
DougU
How do you count people that don't want to be counted? Everything is a guess!
But you neatly side stepped the question I asked of you.. how many are good?
Here's the sort of example I'll use.. If you go up to Northern Minnesota you will see a lot of Canadians working at jobs. They may commute every day, They may work 4 10 hour days or work only during the summer, whatever..
They are illegal. With a variety of ways to get away with it.
In addition to that WE have a higher than normal percentage of Hispanics. Plus a rather growing Russian population.. (OK, members of the former Soviet Union.) I spoke to some of them about the process.. They work aboard Russian trawlers and periodically pull into one of the unguarded ports and when they go back out to sea a little later the boat doesn't have the same number in the crew. A relative or friend meets them at the dock and welcome to America.
So tell me Doug.. these people working here, doing jobs we want done, paying taxes and living decently.
Are they good or bad?
Those people have committed a felony, we don't need them here. We already have plenty here. So that makes them bad.
catfish,
Coming from the viewpoint of a native American I can see why you feel that way. Heck we should all probably be sent back. But you first!
Listen I know your people immigated across the siberian land bridge first but you guys are illegals in that sense too.. None of your forefathers got the required paper work!
OK just funnin' ya.. While still tryin' to make my point..
My great grandfather bought a ticket, got on a boat, and when he arrived filed in the required paper work (ie he made his mark) most immigrents did as well..
Not untill relatively recently have documents been needed to enter America. And don't forget we advertize for immigrents. (still do today!) America was built on the backs of immigrents who worked hard and often died for the freedoms you enjoy today.. If we've made it immpossible for them to come here legally we shouldn't be surprised when some do. Don't blame the robin for eating the fat worm dragged in front of him..
There isn't one of us who hasn't sometime in our lives broken rules. Maybe it was that joint you smoked or white lightening moonshine you had.. Maybe you dated a girl and crossed a state line to take her someplace. Have you ever taken a piece of pollution equipment off and then drove the car? `there are lots of ways to break rules. when you are caught.. if you are caught, you pay the fine and that is the end of it.. We don't take your home from you and force you to leave the country..
Besides it would be relatively simple to become a citizen anyway wouldn't it? I mean don't you just have to marry an American? I'm not an immigration lawyer so I don't know the details..
One final point.. Today America has 300 million people not crowded by world standards but there are more than twice as many people in America today as when I was born..
Since we have got another 50 states to put them in that makes property worth twice s much as when I was born.. factor in inflation and land owners who sell make good money.. But since you'll be hard pressed to get an American to leave I don't think the population is going down any time soon..
My point of view is not Native American. Thats a herring, red at that.
"When my grandfather arrived he filed the required paperwork" That should be the end of this discussion, illegals do not file paperwork, except for forgeries.
I guess your big fat ox hasn't been gored yet, cause when they do you'll quit singing La cucharacha and change to the Star-Spangled Banner.
If you don't know about the cuban problem (can't be deported) take a trip to South Florida.
Now, Forever, and Always America for Americans (and LEGAL immigrants)
catfish,
When my great grandfather arrived you were supposed to get off the boat and register for the war.. those 600,000 killed during the civil war represented a lot of immigrents fresh off the boat. Rather than register my great grandfather went up to Canada. After the war he came back and settled down in Wisconsin..
So he was a draft dodger and an illegal.. But he was a good man, well respected..
Both Dad and I made up for his lack of military service. Dad was decorated and promoted for bravery during WW2. I got a couple of medals for two tours in Vietnam..
See illegals make decent children. <grin>
Frankly I'd like a lot of illegals.. they all need someplace to live and many wind up buying houses which means new houses get sold and more get built.. do it enough times and I can get back to work..
I've been in south Florida as well as west LA! You do realize that some of those people are third, fouth, or tenth generation American don't you? I had a crew help me with part of my roof for a few days .. nobody spoke English but three of the four were legal.
Very few families have been in America 400 years. Cubans are undeportable. The hope in FL is that when castro dies they will haul #### to cuba, even if they have to make 2 trips.
Is that why you champion illegal immigration, your grandfather was an illegal immigrant? Do you feel we need mor draft dodgers and crooks in this country? No wonder there is no middle class anymore, we're giving away the farm with no return.
Edited 3/20/2008 9:58 am ET by catfish
Catfish
10 generations is less than 200 years, considering that up untill recently marriages could have occurred at age 15/16 we could have it at 150 +or- But some of them have been here longer than that. Yes I do know about the Parts of the country that were Mexican but we took them away and now they are American..
Well your last sentence didn't make any sense.. First economic class has little to do with immigration status.. I don't see anybody giving away the farms (although farm land up in North Dakota is really cheap right now)..
Finally I sincerly hope you didn't call a decorated combat vertern a draft Dodger. While that phrase has been bantied around about the currant president I believe it is more accurate to state that he was AWOL for a time.. However I dodged the draft by joining the Navy and flew two tours doing coastal intradiction looking for weapon smugglers. So I will take offence to such a call.
You said your great grandfather was a draft dodger and illegal immigrant. Nowhere do I call anyone a draft dodger
My question do you think we need more draft dodgers and crooks in America?
While these illegals send money (most of what they make) to Mexico how does that not hurt America.
catfish,
First the draft bothers the heck out of me..
Our young men still have to register when they turn 18 or risk punishment. Apparently equal rights don't apply to girls..
Second if you come here legally you can join the service and if you survive you get to be a citizen.. frankly they shouldbe granted citizenship when they raise their hand.
OK rant's over, to answer your question..
If there is no draft then nobody can be called a draft dodger.. (or everybody can).
As I pointed out we are all to some degree crooks, law breakers, felons, whatever..
The differance is that we haven't been caught..
One major point.. while numbers vary all over the place. 15 million 19 million 10 million etc..
But there are a lot of illegals here.. some have been here a very long time and are pretty well intergerated into our society.. If we emptied your neighborhood out first what would you do with all the illegals remaining?
I'm speaking about Russians, Canadians, Chineese, Phillipino's, Hispanics, etc. who are here illegally.
Please be practical.
First of all if you think I meant Mexican illegals, and I don't think I used any adjectives in front of illegal. So they all would be gone at once.
If we just deport the ones that can't walk back, we'll be ahead of the game.
I'm well integrated into society and a felon but still don't have a vote. Does that make me deportable? No because I am a citzen of this country. In the end this is about the survival of America. If we send everything out of the country, what will we do?
The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. The first behavior in America is a felony, whats to come.
Catfish,
Then you aren't in that group who appreciates the efforts our forefathers spent making America what it is..
You got what you got and you think more people will deminish it.. The trouble with those thoughts and ideas is that we use an underclass to achieve so much more..
If that motel can't use illegals to make up your bedroom with fresh linens etc. they won't hire young american girls to replace the illegals Young Americangilrs won't do it and so the cost of making it attractive enough for the motel to have fresh bed linens would either raise the price of the room through the roof which will slow down travel or force the motel to shut down.. Ditto on the travel industry.
Same with the bus boy and all those underclass jobs. America benefits.. their loss would be our loss..
Do you think if the illegals didn't pick our crops we'd pay more to those willing to work at that job?
No, we'd export those crops.. Lettuce could come from central and south america.. the only trouble is with a plane ticket in the head of lettuce's pocket that would be an expensive head of lettuce..
And so on.. So how about now.. do you still think America would be better off if we sent 19 million illegals home? What do we do about those homes the illegals own? and what about their kids? They are American citizens so we can't deport them as you point out..
What about the jobs those illegals provide? How are we going to deal with all the unemployment created.. you take 19 million people out of an economy and there will be some reaction..
Your insistance that these people did something wrong when they came here is in direct opposition to my views.. The law can't trap you into breaking the law or offer you an unreasonable inducement..
Some attractive female undercover cop undresses in front of you and starts to rub your member she's gonna have a hard time argueing entrapment..
These illegals see what sort of income we make and our life style copared to theirs you can't blame them for wanting to come here can you?
It's supposed to be something like 13 years to get a legal visa in Mexica Or you can bribe an ofical and get to the head of the line.. Once you get here with a legal visa you aren't breaking our laws how you got it..
But off hand who do you think is in the best position to bribe an offical? The poor school teacher who makes $1500 a year or the drug dealer?
No they won't hire Americans, they would have to pay a living wage instead of financing some BS like a football bowl game or auto race.
Are you really John McCain? You sound just like him. It is not entrapment when you cross a border. It is a premeditated, willful act and a felony in this country. If you don't believe that look it up.
Your lack of respect for the laws of this country is appalling to me.
Catfish
I do question authority at all times..
If we had a simple way to document workers as they arrived like so many generation before had I would be in complete agreement with you. I'd be joining those patrolling and screaming my head off. Allow only those accross we have need for..
But it's not accessable.. it really doesn't work..
Untill we fix it we need some solution. President Bush had a solution.. it would have worked.. not perfect but it would have worked and we could fix our borders and stop the massive influx.
In addition all those Hispanics would have been greatfull and the largest minority block would have been a pretty effective tool to use to make some real worthwhile changes.
Now I'm not a republican but something that is good for the country I don't care who gets credit..
hey frenchy:
Yes we have all broken rules at one time or the other
BUT I HAVE NEVER COMMITTED A FELONY, MAJOR DIFFERENCE
There is a difference
frammer52
Like I said if there was a workable solution I'd support it.. There isn't .
We have pretty much an open borders policy and building some stupid giant fence isn't going to work..
It's also stupid to think that 19 million who now think of America as home will suddenly start walking towards the border..
Sad to Say Bush's idea would have been good for the country.. since we remain in the same stalemate we've been in for decades things will get worse not better..
Now I'll listen what's your suggestion?
Enforce the laws on the books.
obviouly you haven't been paying attention.
Employee at time of hiring fill out I9 as required by law. Only difference is I would require reporting anyone that doesnot have proper ID
When you can't hire illegals they will have no choice but to go home.
Expand the temp. worker visa program or guest worker program
only problem with this is we have wimps representing us that are affraid to enforce the law.
frammer52
No the laws aren't enforced because it's in powerful peoples interests not to enforce them.. they like the status quo because it keeps the wages in check. If you buy the story there is no class warfare then you are culpable as they are..
The only interest, I've been able to find is the democrats desire to expand their base.
Why else would they not even accept a voter ID act?
frammer52
Standard republican tactics reduce the voting base..
Face it you fat white guys blew it when you passed on Bush's plan to enpower the republican party.. Get those illegals citizenship and they would be forever greatfull to the republican party. That's a lot of votes..
huh?
He's been out of work for too long. Know where he can get a job? Pleese? Help all of us!
I know of jobs but he would have to move, work with conservative christian, whowill want him to keep his opions to himself
I couldn't work with that kind let alone him!
peteshlagor,
I discussed our finances with my wife and found that we're OK , mortgage will be paid on time until summer of 2010 even without a job..
Then I might have to sell one of my toys..
Catfish,
Doesn't that make all Cubans legal? I thought we had an agreement with the Cuban government not to take any more except the 60,000 or so who win the Cuban lottery and can come here legally every year..
If they make it to dry land they can stay. Caught in the water they go back to cuba.
That is called wet foot, dry foot policy. No that does not make them citizens.
Ellian Gonzalez was a wet foot, thats why he was sent back to cuba.
I truly hope you find a job soon. For all our benefit. DanT
>I truly hope you find a job soon. For all our benefit.<
I was thinking the same thing. Or maybe he should go work on his house or shellac something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTDWSBn18V8
What we going to do?
I'm gonna work for someone that doesn't hire illegals. Does government contracts so every worker is documented with background checks.
move to Oklahoma where I can get health care thru my tribe, and Oklahoma jobs are for Americans. Grow more, heck any of my food so I want be so dependent on an income for groceries
Best of Luck to you!
Tough world we live in today!
I worry, got 2 sons in their late teens.
Just hard to make ends meet.
There is no coasting when they are that age. I'll be so happy when the oldest graduates college. Which he would have already, but he played 3 years of minor league baseball, could have been a career but injury ended it.
3-4 years is what I'm shooting for to move to Oklahoma. Thats when the youngest should graduate.
MikeK
If your income is down only 40% and you are about to be foreclosed on while still employed I suspect I don't have a problem like yours..
My income went down about a year and a half ago, and slightly more than six months ago I was laid off.. My unemployment has run out and yet all my bills are currant as is the house payments..
I have about 5 more months of remaining currant in cash assets and then I have another year of readily convertible assets to dispose of before I get into the assets that I really want to hold onto..
As for your comment about greedy executives, based on that statement I suspect you think the executives at Enron were merely guilty of faulty timing rather than any deliberate attempt to gain at others expense.
If you dangle a juicy worm in front of a robin you cannot blame the robin for greedily gobbling it up. Offer someone a way to get something that is attractive and don't be surprised if they take you up on your offer.
i always hate to attack someone,but do you really have yourself convinced that bear stearns was not greedy? they showed that by wanting to fill there pockets by jumping into sub prime mortgages. that is the ultimate sign of greed. they knew they were taking a high risk by loaning to much on ltv to people that had a history of not paying back money that they owed.
the writing was on the wall in bold print and you and i both have the common sense to know that.
let me ask you would you loan out of your personal bank account 210k on a 200k house,to someone that has terrible credit,taken bankruptcy 3 years ago, and works at a job for 9 months making 35k a year? oh all so you can make 1.5% more intrest than to a good credit risk,who has always paid everybody?
thats called getting greedy larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Hazlett,
He knows that and recently as a couple of years ago started to revise his life style.. Which previously wasn't very extravagent but did include the full cost of two college tuitions for his sons. They have now both graduated and those bills are past, which had his previous work pace continued he should have been able to pay off the mortage and start saving towards retirement.
He is extremely skilled at his task and has a country wide customer base so when he goes from selecting which job he can perform to stopping every day or so looking for additional work it's a clear indication that construction is down dramatically.
I too had lived a relatively modest life style. The fact that over 6 months past my last paycheck the mortage is currant and there is no other debt (credit card or otherwise) should be sufficent testimony to that fact. At the currant pace of usage I have another 5 months or so of cash before I will be forced to sell assests I would rather save..
The reason I list my own experiance is to show that the 5% unemployment rate is more than 5%.. Clearly I am living with the belt as tightly drawn as I can. Which means I'm buying less.. many others are as well as I've listed..
There is a certain fear element creeping into society. Even those with good secure jobs look around and note the indicators of dispare and are saving rather than spending.. As the effects of the currant conditions become more and more noted they avoid spending and stay home.. etc.. further adding to the problem.. but fear is n't selective.. once the nation feels the grip of fear drastic changes need to occur before normal life styles resume..
What is scary is the solution offered.. Those rules on banking were implimented only after this nation learned a really painful lesson. That without those rules abuses occur which can cost the nation far more than if good banking practices had been followed..
We are dropping all of those hard earned lessons in a despirate attempt to shore up this country.. The fundamental truth is this country needs to be shored up because of our military adventures. remove those and this nations economic woes wouldn't be here..
frenchy---
I also felt it was my obligation to help my children recieve the very best education they could obtain.
that's why they went K-12 to private schools
the oldest one attends a private college- the youngest one a much less expensive local public school(his choice)where we part ways--is that my sons are both 18 and over---they are no longer children--if not yet full fledged adults.
I picked up the tab--K-12----but it is now time for them to shoulder some of the burden
one(older0 son chose an expensive school--- he gets aid and scholarships--we split the remaining balance--- he works 12-14 hours a day, usually 6 days a week in the summer to pay his share.the younger son--chose a less expensive school--his choice--- as a result he doesn't need to work as much as the older one--but it was HIS choice--- if he had gone somewhere more expensive-- well there isn't a roof in town I wouldn't work on--in order to help him make it happen---but he chose differentlyI do NOT see it as my moral obligation to extend my sons adolescence indefinitely on my dime.- it's time for them to "man-up" and pay their share--and they do so. It IS my moral obligation to do my best to make certain that my sons do NOT start their adult life as indentured servants or wage slaves. allowing them to accumulate significant college related debt--would be ir-responsible on my part.
the son who attends the expensive school??? if it was necissary for him to accumulate extensive student loans in order to go there---- i would yank him right back to the local public university so fast his head would explode
luckily working 60-70plus hours a week outdoors in construction and landscaping--tends to focus a young man on school the other 9 months
(so-far, LOL)
very best wishes to your daughter,
stephen
stephen,
Well as I said to aimless that has consquences. In all likelyhood it will preclude him from any intern positions which means when he starts his career he will start at entry level without a senior mentor to guide him..
Starting at entry level is what is politely called the washout cycle.. they will hire 20 for one position. One position which he would have if he works as an intern and then one of those 20 who made it will get his job as he's promoted..
Really large corporate structures will maybe hire 100 to get all the cheap labor they can out of young and ambitious people and slowly let them eliminate themselves from any real chance for advancement. before they place the one surving person on the step the intern will step out of..
Now that step is a long way from the top but it's a really important step to start at.. Start lower than that and you never get considered for a really top job..
The schools matter few CEO's graduate from small state colleges occasionally a really excellant one comes from a sate university but that's a real handicap.. far better to come from an IVY league.
My sister who does interior designing for one of the big HMO's has a sort of short cut she shares with me.. When a new hire or new promotion becomes a vice president she tells me the school they graduated from and I know immediately how much the HMO will spend designing their office..
Harvard and the budget is $210,000, Yale, Stanford, MIT) $185,000 other Ivy League schools slightly less and University of whatever state less than $150,000.
That's also an indicator of their income.. Oh there are enough rare exceptions to prevent anything from being an absolute foregone conclusion but that's how it works here in America major corporation world..
So if I understand you, if you go to a state sponsered college you have no chance of making it to the top?
Well, I guess I should call my elected reps. and tell them to stop wasting money on state colleges.
I think maybe you need to rethink this. In order to get a decent job in a large corp. today you need a masters degree.
The smart ones go to a less expensive undergraduate school, apply to the prestigious univercities.
Yes corp. ceos tend to go to an ivy league school.
There are an awful lot of people who won't make it to the top who have a succesful career, starting in state schools.
frammer52,
Kind of skipped around there didn't you? .. You took things and twisted them to suit you.. for example if you noted I did say that in the Corporate world there is the rare exception.. In addition all those low level and midlevel positions need to be filled.. those wind up to be the dead end jobs many at state schools wind up in .. I was talking about the top spots.. Thought I made that pretty clear..
Please remember that there is a differance between being successful as a person and being successful in the corporate world.. Many who can't make it in the corporate world go on to be successful running their own show or working smaller than a major corporation.
As to the need for a masters degree, absolutely! however few with a masters degree and no experiance ever get hired at major corporations.. They are too expensive to try and find out if they are a good fit or not..
Normal policy is to get in, get some experiance and have your mentor give you a leave of absence while you get that masters degree.
That statement makes no sense.
Nephew, graduated masters degee in e.e. last year 87000 to start
never worked for the company or any other in field.
Frammer,
My nephew graduated from The university of Minnesota with a starting wage higher than that working for 3M plus he's pretty well expected to go back and get a masters.. I'm not sure what you are claiming.. that he got a good paying job? sure it happens never said it doesn't.
Especially if he has a skill or something needed by a company.. However That doesn't mean he's on track to be the CEO of a major corporation does it?
Edited 3/18/2008 10:48 pm ET by frenchy
Frenchy how many CEO jobs or even VP jobs do you think there are?
I bet it's less than 1% of all the grads that came out of harvard and yale.
School ain't the promise up but it is the opportunity to make the world better.
I also don't think the country is coming to an end as we know it.
I do believe the world globalization will make our living standard less but not caveman like.
If we want to change our world for the better we all are going to have to push the next several generations into the reality of dealing with diminishing resources and over population.
It is time for our kids and theirs to push the rest of us into a more sustainable scenario.
We need to convince the youth that the education to have is not to fill a need for greed but a way to make the world a better place.
And judging from the teenagers I know they sense this and are starting to ask the right questions and seek a better solution.
The real question is our generation too set in their ways to help the next strive for a better world?
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Andy,
Well said,
The one point I'd like to differ with you on is that as adults it's our duty to show the youth of today the possibility of sustainability.. Which by the way should be our clue to future growth industries and a way to maximise the education kids are getting..
We need to be a leader not a follower on the enviornment.. The first company to develop affordable solar panels or the first company to make a shingle like solar panel is going to have a monumental leap on the rest of the world..
America fell asleep on the hybred. We actaully had prototypes etc. working before others but short sighted focusing on next quarters profit report cost America the lead. So we buy the technology under license from Japan..
I suspect in the end it's not going to be one giant leap forward rather a series of small steps which together add up to sustainability..
Oh, and if top positions with major corporations are only 1% Ivy league, that still does not make my statement wrong.. I said that there is a path to be followed in most cases with major corporations.. You start at the intern level and then upon graduation you are placed several steps ahead of those who simply graduate and go looking for a job.. Those several steps are critical steps because they also include typically a mentor who is better able to guide you thru the maze of corporate dead end jobs.
The thrust of my arguement was that by working your way thru school you are in a poor position to accept those low paying or volenteer jobs. Over someone who's parents pay for their education.. Please go back and reread..
I understood what you said my point is "that what we really want to lead our kids into".
Just how many of those mentor situations are available and what about the other 1000 students to that 1 mentor scenario?
I would not want to steer my child to the corporate world for success. Teach him the advantages of being an independant entity and how to utilize an education to get there.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Andy,
I didn't steer my daughter this way!
It was her choice! I had two other career paths I suggested to her, (one that I favored heavily)
In retrospect my daughter choose a better path than what I outlined for her,.... For her!
frenchy--- i really can't follow what point you are trying to make here, since you are all over the place.
you seem to be complaining that your daughter isn't being fast tracked into a corporate CEO slot because she worked a part time job in college????---c'mon, get realI am pretty sure there are more likely alternative scenarios at play there.
It would be like me complaining that my son who is a distance runner--can't break a 4 minute mile and isn't going to the olymics---because he worked a summer job?????and--aren't we about 30 years PAST encouraging our offspring to strive for a job with a fortune 500 co. as a mark of achievement??????I am not trying to pile on ya-------it seems like you did the best you could for your daughter--and far better than most would---but it is time for her to step up to the plate and make the most of what SHE has to work with. I am sure she will do fine.Best wishes,
stephen
stephen,
NO I'm not complaining! I'm simply reporting on the sytem in place and how paying for your childs education has benefits. Real benefits to your child.. (to counter the arguement I believe it was aimless had that kids should work their way thru college)
As I said my daughter is doing well in the corporate world. She has had three promotions in a little over a year and a half. Her income has more than doubled over her starting salary and I get to fly around the country nearly free <grin>
Oh, and this was her choice of careers. I had her going in another direction...
Sir:
I twisted things artound about as much as you do when you say the US is in a recession or depression.
I twisted things around when you give us statements about how your friends at the bank said....
The schools matter few CEO's graduate from small state colleges occasionally a really excellant one comes from a sate university but that's a real handicap.. far better to come from an IVY league.
Jack Welsh, former GE CEO may disagree with that. UMASS 1957.
Warren Buffet-Univ. of Nebraska
Paul Allen-Washington State Univ. (dropped out)
etc.
smslaw,
I suppose that with careful reading you would notice that I mentioned the exception that proves the rule.
Look I admire anyone who can graduate from an Ivy league school.. I know that it's not a sure ticket to wealth and power but it's a real step up over state college that I attended. University's offer a better chance too than my state college. But I have a better chance than someone with a high school diploma. Nothing is sure.. but the better the school the better your chances are..
the better you do in that school the more oppertunities you'll have as well. In the end that was the thrust of my comments .. not that so& so is a failure or that something is a lock on life.
I just spoke on the phone to someone in the industry who used to get 60 to 75 billable hours a week he's now down to 25, but the employment rate remains the same..
His income used to come up short of meeting his expenses but he was able to keep currant by refinancing his house every other year. Not anymore, he owes more on the house than currant market conditions warrant. He's lost over $200,000.00 in equity in the last 2 years.. (he's in California)
This guy is an idiot.
He was in trouble and now he's in worse trouble and it's GW's fault?
And what did he spend all his money on? Got the big dually with a 454 to tow the ski boat?
OK, read your last post, no ski boat. But still, nothing but college? He still made mistakes that got him to where he's at.
Joe H
Edited 3/18/2008 11:33 am by JoeH
Joe,
He sent his two sons thru college on him.. One earned a masters degree and the other a batchlers degree. He also lived in Southern Calfornia and paid the expenses of doing so..
He Drove mostly older used cars ( did his own work on them) but his wife had a new car.. Wife and sons enjoyed a couple of nice vacations while he stayed home and worked.. Doesn't drink (a rare can of beer) doesn't smoke, doesn't gamble, or chase ladies..
Pays his taxes on time and keeps the house neat (well much of that is his wifes doing)
So you'd describe such a person as an idiot?.... Well, to a degree. He does vote republican... <grin>
Long term borrowing to maintain one's lifestyle IS idiotic. He made a choice to pay for sons' college. He made a choice to live in the house he did. He made a choice to buy his wife a new car. I can see making a mistake and finding oneself in the hole once. But after borrowing against one's shelter to fill the hole, the lifestyle absolutely, positively must change to accomodate reality.
Had he invested that money into retirement instead, his sons' could have gotten more financial aid because IRAs and 401Ks are not included in the aid calculations.
aimless
He made too much money for his sons to get any aide.. (as did I) but he paid for the full boat of his sons education so they could start life without a student loan debt.. I only managed to pay for part of my daughters education and feel remorse deeply.. While she struggles with a debt that morally should be mine..
You do believe that is a parents duty to educate their children as well as possible don't you? Luxury to have a new car for the wife? I don't believe your in a position to judge another persons life style.. (judge not least ye be judged)
I'm fiscally conservative and he was more conservative than I am. His problem is that the sort of construction he does work for is quickly drying up.. after 30+ years of 60+ hour weeks he is feeling a slow down he's never felt before..
In 30 years! That means all those companies he's done work for are also scrambling, laying off or planning on laying off people..
His Father who worked about 30 hours a week in retirement is no longer working, his brother is in the same boat, reduced to a tiny portion of his previous hours.. The trouble is his brother still has two children in college to pay for..
I also have 2 kids in college, 1 on full academic, which is no housing. The other is getting student loans which my wife and I are repaying.
I have no idea how to pay income tax this year because the schools are sucking me dry. My goal is to get them thru college no matter the cost to me. I'll deal with the IRS or whoever in 4 years.
catfish,
I feel it's a moral obligation to provide the best possible education your children are capable of using..
While I do know that there might have been some small potential savings if they had denied themselves any socializing and recreation. I also am aware that they both are/were living rather frugally. What parent wants their children forced into a monk like existance over a trival amount.
My daughter straining under the burden of her college loans will get some help from dad as soon as dad gets back to work..
Edited 3/18/2008 12:31 pm ET by frenchy
Part of a young mans life is socializing and recreation. My older played 3 years of minor league baseball. The basic contract is about 2,000 a month. He likes about a year and a half of school now, and works and goes to school full-time.
The younger was working full time until starting college. I still provide them both with cars and insurance.
Frenchy: Maybe he should move from cal.. Ther are a lot of places that have plenty of work.
He should have known better that to keep borrowing against his equity.
That is a last resort. Paying for college is admirable.
Working my way through college in th 70's, private college, was hard, but I was able to appreciate my education.
Funny part is after college and working for 3 large corps., ended up going to work in construction.
The post you talked about the infastructure being rebuilt. I belive that if instead of new buildings and roads, taking care of the existing ones would have been a better use of the fed. highway funds..
If you want to help your family, sometimes you have to move where the jobs are.
frammer52
a few points,,
First,
smooth roads won't reduce congestion.. the problem is that traffic has way more than doubled since the freeway system was built. We have more than twice as many cars in the same space and it doesn't fit..
Go into LA for example.. at 3 o' clock on a sunday morning there are traffic jams
We need more lanes and effective mass transit systems..
second,
If the economy in construction had remained even moderate he wouldn't be in the bind he's in.. He borrowed to do something good and noble and if we hadn't spent our money inIraq this wouldn't have happened.
(by the way I went thru college on the GI bill for my service in Vietnam I also was working 70 hours a week while going to college full time.. but things are differant now
Next
He's where he is because of his wifes family is there.. He get's Fed Ex packages from all over the country and returns them when finished. So the work is slowed that much nationally.
Mass transit will not work in cal. until there is a change in attitude.
what has changed so much that kids can"t work to help pay their college bills?
So what you are saying is his income has gone down. This should come as no shock to someone who made a living selling to the construction industries.
Again, the new housing market has declined. If you check it out you will find we are still building 1 million houses per year.
Again, I live in upstate NY, our housing sales in 2007 were up 3%. My point is that yes, some parts of the country are hurting, but the majority of the country is doing fine.
Again, how many people did sadamn have to kill before the war in Iraq is justifiable? 2-3-4-million?
I don't doubt that your friend is in a terrible bind. I am pointing out that he made choices. Borrowing against home equity every other year is a bad one. He's only got a few years left of work to pay those bills while his sons have 40 years ahead of them. Personally, I'd rather have my children graduate with debt that I can help them pay over time than to bankrupt myself to pay for tuition right off the top. Not only does the debt keep both of us out of a financial bind, it helps my child establish good credit in their own name. Plus, I am hoping to save enough so my kids won't have to financially support me when I retire.
No, I don't believe that I am morally obligated to give my kids a free ride to college. I love them, I nurture them, and I do my best to assist them in acquiring the tools to be successful in life. I save in a 529 for college, but I don't stress over whether it will all be paid for. In my experience the kids going to school on a free ride were not the best students. I hope to save enough to pay for most of in-state tuition for 4 years. The rest will be up to my children, and allow them to start making adult choices.
aimless--- you mentioned something about college financial aid.
It's important, so i will mention it once
if you are a working person of modest means-----and you have financial assets anywhere other than in your homes equity or your retirement accounts----you are gaonna take it in the neck come tuition time
anybody with kids who are going to go to college---better investigate this before the kid gets past his 1st year or so of highschool
2 families with identical income and identical net worth--will pay VERY different college expenses based on WHERE the net worth sits
I wish i had the web site at hand here---but some years ago in the process of investigating college possibilities--- a web site for one of the colleges we were looking at directed us to another web site--which spelled it all out
Remarkable difference the location of your money makes---and the rules are right there in black and white.
Best wishes,
stephen
aimless
Well that's your prejudices, (kids with free rides don't perform well) His kids were straight A students,, one is now a college professor with a national reputation already for the work he does..
My daughter on the other hand under performed to her abilites because in addition to college work she tried to earn part of the money with a part time job.. As a result she didn't get one of the intern jobs in her field that lead to hiring at a better level than she was able to be hired at.. (another words she's not top management potential now) While she has had 3 promotions already she still hasn't reached the level that her two classmates started at.. Her Mentor is a middle level manager rather than a Vice president of the company as her classmates were..
Corporate world has very strict paths leading to Top spots.. working part time in anything other than your field is an automatic disquaifier. and internship is achieved thru academic excellance which requires 5 study hours/classrom hour instead of the typical three which good grades require..
Of course if Daddy is the CEO all those rules are eased.
Oh and by the way he too is currant with all his bills and obligations and at least he has income coming in.. However the equity he had two years ago is gone. not because he borrowed against it but because homes devalued that much.. This would have been a year he could have made extra house payments to recover some of the equity he'd borrowed putting his kids thru college. The exact nature of any shortfall will be calculated with next quarters estimated taxes.
Don't know Frenchy, but I think it's called "Betting on the come"
The cards stopped coming, but the betting didn't.
He should have cashed out earlier, too late now.
I sold a house in December for $100,000 less than an identical house sold for last summer. Less than a block away, identical in just about any measurable respect.
I wasn't happy about the price, but I was happy to be out of it. Where should I complain?
Joe H
Joe
He's worked for 30+ years doing what he does. An average of 60+ hours a week.
Now he's down to less than 1/2 of that?
That means the companies he works for are out of work. Laying off people..
30 years and he's never had this problem.
His father who was working an average of 30 hours a week in retirement no longer works, his brother is down to the same short hours and scramble.. (because he has two daughters still in college..
Maybe you've heard, construction is down?
Maybe Pollyanna would be a better screen name.I worked in banking for a number of years.The very fact that the fed is actually lending to banks at the discount window is a serious sign: they have 'always' had a discount rate but had never actually lent to banks at the discount rate - it almost did in the late 80's when a fairly large bank was ready to collapse, but the bank pulled through without it.The fed is intended to be the "lender of last resort." When it is lending like this, it is an extremely ominous sign. The fed doesn't talk about it and reporters don't know enough to know the significance.But this is a serious situation.
Remember Mary Dyer, a Christian Martyr (Thank you, Puritans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_DyerMay your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
Maybe Pollyanna would be a better screen name.<<<<<< I thought you said I could be Pollyanna???
Of course it is a serious situation, but it should be kept in perspective rather than panicking and making things worse. Apparently, we learned something 79 years ago because instead of tanking today the market was slightly up. Unemployment is up, but it is still pretty darn low compared to historical rates. The fed is slashing interest rates, which will help forestall the mortgage crisis for all those loans yet to adjust. The Dow is still near 12,000, which is a huge drop from a few months ago, but is still way north of a few years ago. Remember the big deal when the Dow hit 10,000? When it hit 11,000? It sucks to be at or near retirement right now, but what a great opportunity to invest.
If Bush and his cronies really want to help this country, and to buy some votes, then they will embark on an ambitious WPA type program immediately to refurbish this country's infrastructure. How quickly we have forgotten the power outage in the northeast - and nothing has been done to resolve it. What can bring this country down is the combination of economic disaster with a power or water supply disaster, and our government has been terribly remiss in not addressing the weaknesses there.
aimless,
I suspect that you and frammer 52----are correct about the economics of this( though i gotta strongly dis-agree politically with frammer 52)You have to keep things in perspective---things are never as good the front page of newspapers would have you believe---nor are they as bad as they would have you believeremember when the S&L crisis was supposed to signal the collapse of our economy?---or when we were all supposed to get silly rich just by plowing $10,000 into our nephews' web start up.
Factoring in inflation---gasoline only in the last week or so achieved the same level of expensiveness as it had in '79-'80---in real terms--it isn't as horrifyingly expensive as we would tend to believe( I paid $100 exact--for my last fill-up- I noticed it-then shrugged and got on with the rest of my day)However---if I was unemployed in Minnesota or Michigan--and my personal real estate holding were heading south----- it would be difficult to maintain perspectiveOf course if I was a farmer in Iowa---and facing record grain prices --and trying to decide WHICH crop would be MOST profitable-rather than what crop might at least break even---- I might have a problem restraining irrational exuberance.It is never as BAD--or as GOOD as others would have us believe.A little historical info on recessions might be in order
looking in the rear view mirror---we often find that by the time we are officially IN a recession we have already been there for some time----and the rear view mirror also tells us-that often by the time we we are in the recession-we are already on the way OUT of the recessionNone of that is any help if YOU are the dude out of work what we have now----is the classic BUY opportunity--mixing metaphors--blood is running in the streets and folks are crying " the sky is falling, the sky is falling"----it's the BUY opportunity that will be recognized in the rear view mirror 10-15 years from now.Best wishes--and profitable investing !!!
stephen
Edited 3/18/2008 7:39 am ET by Hazlett
I am in complete agreement with you - it is nearly impossible to take the overall perspective when the personal one is jobless or in some other financial difficulty. For those of us who still have jobs, it is important to try and take that overall perspective to avoid panic.
And might I add that "Bear" Stearns had downward market written all over it. :)
aimless,
Now apparently Lehmann bros. is next under attack..
Investment banks had as much as 20 times net worth loaned out.. That wasn't all from subprime loans..
Business borrows money to grow and sometimes just to keep the doors open but when sound banking practice isn't followed such crashes can and do happen..
real # is more like 30x,s
Remember economist have predicted 11 out of the last 4 recessions..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
When I was young I used to like to hunt , fish , and chase women.
In order for me to do that the way I wanted I only had time to work two thirds of the time available .
I no longer want to do those things but had I been of the same age as today it would be harder to get by doing it .
In 1970 I could get by fine working two days per week. Our business was much the same at that time . Quick money baby. Anything extra and it went to three days a week. I could have been working and saving but at the time I was sewing oats I guess you could say. Doing what I wanted to do. I dont think I would have that choice today if I was 20 again.
The sky isnt falling but things in the building industry nationally are very serious.
In my small town we used to not notice recessions either . We didnt make much money when others were making gold mines. We just plucked along feeding the world chickens to eat. Its still the cheapest real meat out there and made for poor times . If you cant afford steaks just walk on down to the whole chickens. Always . We have never ran out of work, not never . But with fuel prices as high as they are and housing at the price that it is ,minimum wage doesnt cut it . Now we cant qualify for loans. Building has stopped .
Ive got a new house on the market right now at cost and it hasnt sold . People look at it and want it but cant afford a house at cost . They have been asking if I will carry it when no bank in town will for them. My only option is to rent it and that wasnt the plan. When somthing like this happens in rural Arkansas , its bad. I can rent it to 50 different people though in one week because it seems they are all in the same boat .
You have an established business working for people who can write a check or insurance paid them first. You arent working for very many people who have to get their house refinanced to get a roof . Im lucky as well Ive got rentals which are in top demand . However renters are having a very hard time .
Yes , its bad out there .
Tim
aimless,
We are in complete argeement that it's long past time we start investing in Americca rather than spending our wealth on military adventures.
You mentioned only one item. In addition All of the freeways in major metro areas need drastic upgrades.. the loss of time in traffic jams costs all of us in more ways than the frustration they provide.. the cost of goods and services go up reflecting the time spent tied up in traffic..
Our riverways need total rethinking.. stacking up a bunch of dirt isn't going to keep heavily soaked embankments from caving in.. we need to redesign the rivers to allow flood water to be diverted to where it can do some good rather than spilling over and destroying homes and businesses.
In addition we need to become energy independant. It's not going to happen with one major discovery, rather a whole lot of rethinking and creative engineering.. Becoming energy independant makes things which happen in the mideast of mild interest instead of something worth having our young men and women die for..
Other countries make major investments in their infrastructure which gives them a competetive edge in business.. America needs to do the same..
The constant rebuilding of houses in flood prone areas is certainly a large drain. FEMA is just a big a money waster as anyone. Building more and bigger levees is not the answer. That pushes the problem downstream, and the black silt needed to rebuild the good bottomland is pushed out to sea.
There's nothing wrong with the construction industry that deportation of illegal immigrants will not fix. If we just send home the ones that can't walk here, we'll already be ahead of the game. After that start on the rest.
Edited 3/18/2008 11:12 am ET by catfish
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102321.27 in reply to 102321.9
I worked in banking for a number of years."
I did not know that . How long have we known each other on here ? 10 years?
Tim
>>and yet the repossion rate is only1.8%In large part because every repossession cuts into the reserves and capital adequacy requirements of the banks.This will pass, yep, but so do kidney stones.
Remember Mary Dyer, a Christian Martyr (Thank you, Puritans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_DyerMay your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
last I read,according to Harry Dent ...
that's what he's saying.
supposed to come crashing down 2010 / 2011.
read that prediction about a year ago or so ...
just checked with the wife ... she's not sure if he revised it lately.
he uses demographics ... not who's sitting in the white house.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Let's not loose sight of why we are checking on this blog. If we all wanted to talk about politics and religion, we would just wait for the holidays and talk to our families. I think we are all watching and listening and hoping for the best. But we need hope. If you don't have that, why get up tomorrow? We all need to do our jobs, refine our skills, and press on.
All those palaces in Dubai will need work soon, and we need to be ready!
Do you think they asked the brass to give back any of their million dollar salaries? It's only us little guys that get our money stolen. Nothing new for baby boomers and our investments. Thank you sir, may I have another.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I believe 30% of the now devalued stock was employee owned.