OK, it’s not homebuilding, but I thought some of you might be interested in some of the work I’ve done this past week – controlled breeding of apples –
as part of a grower organized program of developing varieties more suited to our midwestern climate there have been selected certain parents that possess traits identified as desirable – of course these same varieties also possess ‘fatal flaws’ of one sort or another – crossing parents with complementary characteristics has been the strategy of apple breeding for the last 120 years –
this spring I have the task of making the crosses HRC13T139 X HoneyCrisp and Ralls Genet X HRC13T139 –
Many of you may be familiar with HoneyCrisp, being the latest, greatest thing – the once a generation ‘winner’ – developed in Minnesota, it’s not well adapted to warmer climes, and not friendly to growers anywhere – its special texture, that it maintains for months, is remarkable –
13T139 is a variety out of the Purdue, Rutgers, and Illinois breeding program – it is a smooth yellow apple, a full sister of ‘GoldRush’, an apple of remarkable flavor and texture – 13T139 lacks the flavor of its sibling, but has the Vf gene for apple scab resistance and is very productive -and most important to us, it is markedly superior in cropping dependability, coming thru spring freezing temperatures better than all but a handful of varieties –
Ralls Genet is an old variety out of Virginia – one of its synonyms is ‘Neverfail’ – ‘Ralls’ crossed with Red Delicious begat ‘Fuji’, of which everyone is familiar – Ralls is of mediocre quality, but has a definite characteristic that allows it to be a very dependable cropper – in this picture, the tree in the foreground is Ralls – looking behind it, you notice trees in full bloom – developmentally, Ralls is some days behind, with the bloom in ‘tight cluster’ to ‘early pink’ stage –
in this picture you notice that the bloom is not only late compared to most, but also it is not evenly developed, some clusters are showing pink and have separated, while other clusters are just emerging from from the spur leaves – this uneven development is unusual – those clusters hanging tight together would be a full 10 degrees hardier than the open blossoms –
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so - first step is collect and prepare pollen - I'm fortunate that the blooming characteristics of my varieties of interest are such that I can do it on farm - often we'll have to ship pollen from south to north to hit the pollination windows -
I collect blossom clusters at the 'early king bloom' stage -
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I bring a bucket full of blossom clusters into the house, and use a razor knife to cut thru the blossom at the strategic point to collect the anthers -
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using a screen, I separate the anthers from most of the rest of the parts -
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the cleaned anthers are placed under a light bulb to ripen the pollen -
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it takes at least 48 hours to ripen the pollen - I was able to leave this pollen go for 96 hours this season - it cooled off outside and took a bit of the pressure off -
today I went to the field and selected a 13T139 tree and prepared it for crossing by cutting off all the open blossoms, leaving just the bloom that was in the 'pink' stage - unopened -
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after preparing a section of the tree, I emasculate a blossom - it takes a thumbnail and a gentle touch - break the blossom right below the sepals, twirl 90 degrees or so and continue the break...
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... then grasp the top of the petals and pull the whole assembly of petals and sepals off, leaving the styles exposed - this is the most finicky operation - some varieties are easier than others - 13T139 wasn't bad, I got about 90% to successfully emasculate - 'Ralls' is more difficult - this operations keeps the bees from finding the flower and spreading unwanted pollen -
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then I use an artist's brush to apply pollen - I carry the pollen to the field in a small jar, swab the brush into the anther/pollen fuzz, shake off the large debris, and paint the stigmas with the brush - it's easy to see the pollen change the color of the stigmatic surface -
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you see in the background of this last picture a cluster with one bloom in 'full pink' and three more in 'tight pink' - I'll do the more developed blossom and return to the tree in a day or two and do the others then, when they have developed further -
"there's enough for everyone"
Dang,
The words photo gallery and sex on the same screen........................
so..... you're a surrogate for money, huh?
yuks aside, very interesting....more please
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Birds do it, bees do it, David Doud does it! Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
"....even the lunks on Breaktime do it,
Let's do it,
Let's fall in love!"
keep this going. What people don't understand is alot of comercial fruit is hybred. The fruit and the seed are two different animals
It's great to read about this kind of stuff.
I've had the "pleasure" of pollenating cherimoyas and this took alot of work. In south america, there are insects that do it naturally. In SoCal, it must be done manually. But at $4-$5 per lb, alot cheaper to do yourself. personally, I hate the fruit, but the SWMBO and MIL loved them.
I've done quite a bit of grafting too. I had an amazing avocado seedling that produced not one piece of fruit until I cut the top off and grafted on a fuerte stem. The best fuerte avocados I've ever had.
"keep this going"
ummmh....
well, I'll be pollinating the other cross today - other than that, the only thing going is the hopeful growth and maturation of the fruit thru this season, and the collection of seeds this next winter - I don't have any seeds to germinate this spring since I took a year off of crossing last year -
our organization is evaluating 20K+ seedlings that have been put in the ground over the last 10 years and has selected the first series of winners in the apple playoffs - these selections have been/are being propagated for dissemination to participants - hopefully in a couple of years we will have a look at them in quantity and in a production situation -
however, I'll see what I can do - "there's enough for everyone"
Excellent tutorial.
Reminds me of an old joke..astronauts finally find ET life on another heavenly body, the ET askes "How do you reproduce on your planet"? Words don't convey well, so the mixed sex astronauts decide to demonstrate the act.
After completing the copulation, the ET's ask " well, where is the offspring?"
Astronaut says " Well, that takes 9 months"
Et "Then why were you in such a hurry at the end?"
Seems you have a lot of patience to do that, I'd be pacing like an expectant father.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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"I'd be pacing like an expectant father."eh - you are the nervous type... :>)lots of plates to keep spinning - it'll be 2015 at the very earliest before I will possibly see fruit from the seeds of these crosses - I'm not holding my breath - I do have several hundred seedlings planted in 2002, most of which are blooming this spring - that's where the excitement is this year - "there's enough for everyone"
Thats a LOT of pacing.
despite the fire blight and fairly dry summer, we had the most apples and better quality, than any of the locals could recall last year.
Must be an anomily or something. I had locals come and take all they could, we were teeming with 3 different kind. The smallish red , crabapple looking ones were the sweetest I've tasted.
I hope for another year like that, but be ready with preservation plans, I hated to see so many wasted.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Thanks for the pics and the education.
Hope ya don't mind, but I thought I'd post a couple of pics from when I stopped by last Friday.
The lines of trees blooming looked pretty impressive. As you said, it's hard to covey in a picture. But what the heck - The picture is still pretty good.
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A closeup of one of the clusters of blooms.
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And a bee going about its business.
It's funny how easy it is for the bees to do polenation, but it's much more difficult for humans.
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"The Bee is such a busy soul....
He has not time for birth control....
And that is why in times like these.....
There are soo many 'Sons of B's'"
So, in stripping the flowers off the tree, you only leave a few flowers that are manually pollenated?
Are the future apples harvested and the seeds are then germinated to produce a viable new strain of tree. If this is correct, how long does it take to "reap your reward"?
I'm assuming that you need 3-4 years befrore you will know if the fruit is of commercial quality. After that ,how many years does it take before you can start using that specimen tree to graft to new trees?
this is where I would have lost patience. all of the hurry up and wait. I thought a 9 month pregancy was long. At least then, I know if it's mine. ;~)
It must be very gratifiy that your effort is someday rewarding, just like having kids, but yours don't tell you "no" or stay out late. I'm wooring about boys coming around will bad intentions. Your worried about insects, frost, squirels, rabbits and mold/fungi.
Your project is extreme long term gratification.
Thanks for posting this. It's a fun way to learn about other people.
"So, in stripping the flowers off the tree, you only leave a few flowers that are manually pollenated?"kinda - I try to clear off limbs so that the fruit they contain consists of controlled crossed material - easier to keep track that way and keep them segregated in the rush of harvest - emasculating the blossoms means the crossed fruit don't have sepals in the calyx end, which can be observed to allow sorting - "Are the future apples harvested and the seeds are then germinated to produce a viable new strain of tree. If this is correct, how long does it take to "reap your reward"? "eh - 5 years absolute minimum, if the deer don't get into the seedling block - 7 to 10 years is more realistic - seedlings have a juvenile period that they have to grow out of - a certain number of apical cell divisions have to take place before they will commence setting fruit buds - several years, under the best of circumstances - but, what passes faster than time? - the numbers of seeds I'll produce is not a huge burden and will provide entertainment for years - "extreme long term gratification" - eh - I know people who breed nut trees - this operation appears in 'fast forward' compared to those enthusiasts - I'll post a few more picts in a day or two - thanks -"there's enough for everyone"
Do you have to touch every blossom on every tree?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"Do you have to touch every blossom on every tree?"well, yes, kinda - I cut off the open ones that the bees have likely pollinated, and emasculate and pollinate what's left - I didn't do the entire tree, I worked off the ground for the most part, if I get 100 to 200 apples, I should average 6-7-8 seeds per fruit - a thousand seedlings is enough to get a good idea of the quality of the cross - the usual figure thrown around is 'one in ten thousand' seedlings being superior and worthy of further propagation - finding and recognizing that one is a pretty good trick - some parent combinations seem to generally throw good quality offspring, others seem to revert - I consider these two crosses long shots, but just like humans, you can't always tell by looking - they should throw a bunch of offspring with dependable cropping characteristics - "there's enough for everyone"
In college we used to use freeze dried bees to pollinate... Thanks for sharing
really!? - did you glue them to a stick? what were you pollinating?"there's enough for everyone"
We just pulled the upper half off poked em with a thin dowel, like a on a cotton swab. IIRC, the bees were sold for this purpose. Long time ago, a plant physiology class, just simple crossbreeding demonstrations. We also got into the giberilic acid ...Unfortunately, I lost most of the useful knowledge from those days. Couldn't explain the Kreb's cycle if my life depended on it ( well I guess everyone's does).
So when your new variety is a success, what are you going to name it?
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
hmmm.....how about 'Splintergroupie'?"there's enough for everyone"
Only if she's a little tart! <G>Thanks for the explanation on the pollen and "puppy" parallels.
WOW just simply WOW, I missed v.1 but I will be watching this one fershure , very good pictures and explanationsours are in full bloom, which I was hoping wouldn't happen yet but it's been too warm during the day and with the rains all last week I couldn't spray oil on mine, now gotta wait till the bees are done.
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"I missed v.1"well, I posted this over at the fine gardening forum first and I thought I would be able to use the pictures without reloading them over here, and initially it looked like I could - the preview showed the picts, I posted, and I saw the pictures on this forum, then I went back an checked all three posts when I was done and there were boxes with '?' in them instead of picts - so I started over - "there's enough for everyone"
Oh David, I saw that this morning , and I thought you were "updating" something you posted last Spring !we have 5 different trees, one Golden and four not Golden, and the increasing amounts of rain the last few years have really made a difference in the amount of fruit on them, the problem for me has always been one of my timing to do the right things... it also doesn't help that the folks around here don't have any old knowledge of apples to share. all the big commercial orchards are gone but one .. the trees are still there, surrounding homes that people just had to build in the middle of an orchard. those folks just don't care enough about their trees So I will appreciate this thread a great deal, since I DO want fresh apples.
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"all the big commercial orchards are gone but one"Garwoods - it's a different world than 40 years ago - not many of us left, and the ones that are are doing things a whole lot differently - building in an old orchard is a poor choice - untended trees get ugly fast, but I know what you are talking of - I've been thru some of those developments - if you have questions, I'll be glad to take a stab at them - "there's enough for everyone"
my trees are mature, and I know I need to prune severely enough to throw a basketball through
and then keep a schedule of spraying, I have lots of pines nearby, and I was always afraid I would damage them with the oil...but I did buy an all season spray that claims to be usable near evergreens and didn't use last Fall, I also can't find it !!!!!, and now the buds are open, so I have to wait again.I get LOTS of apples just not nice looking or good sized ones, I even eat a few.
I think I'm right guessing there are too many apples for the trees ??? and I'm spraying too late ..
no rotting friut overwintering here thanks to the deer! just leaves I have tried to fertilize in the Fall with things like stakes, and spraying the trees with Miracle Gro the rest of the time can I still prune now ?
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Edited 5/5/2009 1:47 am by maddog3
I'm gonna guess that trimmimg suckers anytime is no big deal ?? pick a branch and go to town leaving just a few for fruit ??I think I need to wait big branches until dormant, I cut down big stuff on wild trees anytime but I really want apples.
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Notchman turned me onto a book called "Pruning and Training" by Christopher Brickell and David Joyce. I found it online for half price (normally about $40).It explains the "why" as well as the "how" of various pruning methods, broken down in sections for ornamental, fruit trees, nuts, etc. Each section is further broken down to various kinds of Fruit trees. Take plums, for instance, then European v. Japanese, and the various shapes, such as bush, pyramid, fan, etc. Also caveats about when to prune, when NOT to prune, what diseases to look for, hardiness...really a fine book, 336 pages with excellent color illustrations and plenty of clear photographs. I'm really pleased i took his advice to buy it. Better...i just found a link:http://www.amazon.com/American-Horticultural-Society-Training-Practical/dp/1564583317
thanks for the suggestion , although I have several books including some from the Extension office I might try looking for yours at the liberryI think I finally figured out what I'm trying to ask though.I would like to know if pruning will stop most of the apples from falling off the trees like rain .. I usually just trim the branches that droop in the way of mowing and forget about the rest.. I couldn't get to them early enough this year again beause of my hip operation. it's always somethin' I'm going to try getting rid of the suckers on a few branches and just get medieval on them, what can go wrong.
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I can't be any help. I just learned there are tip-bearing and spur-bearing apples, that they have to be pruned differently. Such mysteries lurk where you scratch below the surface of most anything...
hey bobby! you reading this? you wanted to talk pruning - post your pictures here and we'll talk - "there's enough for everyone"
This topic is most interesting and more than a little intimidating. I know next to nothing when it comes to fruit trees. Nevertheless, my wife and I just purchased a property in the PNW that has several: couple of apples, pear, apricot, plum, and peach. Don't know the specific types... the prior owner only knows that their apple, pear, etc and the original owner is long gone from the earth. My wife is the gardener between us but when it comes to these fruit trees I think I want to get involved. So, this read is very interesting. Can you recommend any books to get us started?
"Can you recommend any books to get us started?"
I'd start with the extension service -
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/garden_pubs.html#FruitsandNuts
here's ours in Indiana - free online publications - I'd think WA/OR extension would have something similar - you can get a lot of general information out of the Purdue site - but depending on which side of the Cascades you reside, there will be climate specific considerations -
for text books -
Modern Fruit Science is still the standard - older editions will not have current chemical information, altho the physiology hasn't changed much - "there's enough for everyone"
Thank you , I pruned a dump truck load for 2 years in a row as i did not want the trees to go into shock, On the one i cleaned out the middle but was not sure of the ends, I know its to crowed at the ends but wanted the apples low, Now i have a lot of water suckers to remove. The other tree i had to remove a main trunk due to rot but still have a hole, What do i fill it with????.
We also have VERY heavy moss which i removed by hand but theres a lot of green moss hanging still. I have never sprayed but would like to use something safe
Heres sum pics last year, I know not what kind of apples they are i have some pics but cant find them.
I'll be back tomorrow - out of juice tonight -
D"there's enough for everyone"
Sleep tight dont let the bed bugs bite!!!!;]
bobby, do you have bigger versions of those photos? more detail would help - the moss thing is not an issue in our climate - I googled around and found this: http://css.answerbag.com/articles/How-to-Remove-Ball-Moss-From-Trees/f73769a2-85f6-6ed3-e29c-90534639c995 , which looks reasonable - like all problems, take care of it in stages, remove by hand the big clumps/easy pickings - I'm not certain about applying the "potassium bicarbonate" mixture to green foliage/fruit , I'd guess that it would cause foliage injury - they mention a 'copper fungicide' - there are several, all are used pre-bloom as copper causes russeting of fruit - copper sulfate has to be used in a true dormant time - after leaf drop this fall and/or pre-bud break in the spring - Copper Oxychloride-Sulfate (COCS) is safe to use from dormant to pre-bloom - I wouldn't use the pressure washer strategy except in the dormant season, and beware being aggressive, you do not want to abrade the bark - opening up the tree so it dries out better will make the habitat less hospitable - looks like the time for the major attack on the moss is during the dormant season -"there's enough for everyone"
we never took too much notice of the trees since I was ususally away from home working and never really took time to care for them some years I prune others years rake leaves and so on. While the nearby conifers kept me from spraying too much as well.I read the books and pamphlets and would then be gripped by fear that I was cutting the wrong branch the wrong way, opening a worm hole or cause a rip in the time space continuum while trying to espalier.......... so I left them alone for the most part, and let the bugs have them
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Ian and i planted lots o' trees, but i went dormant for a couple years after he passed, so it's a wonder any of them survived my lack of care, including watering. I've laid out drip lines to water them more easily, and i band them with Tanglefoot against the ants carrying aphids up the bole, but otherwise i've been paralyzed by indecision, too.
hopefully with Mr.Douds help we can start to experiment with confidence, I was just out looking at them, two have only a few blossoms this year, but the other three are big balls of white flowers, so I snapped a couple branches and brought them in, like ambrosia I tell ya !I had the kid come over and pound some fruit stakes in two months back, took him 5 mins. paid him $36/hr.gonna drag out that pole pruner today if the rain holds off, and commence giving out haircuts... but it's supposed to rain all week again.
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Man, great thread, I'm learning stuff in spite of myself.Question about Sevin Dust. We used to use it for a lot of pest control, but I think I heard something about it wacking bees. Do you know?We have tent caterpillars, or bag worms, and not a lot of fruit trees. I duct tape a propane torch to pole... kinda cool... just don't be standing under the flaming bag.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
"Mr.Douds.." please - 'David' or 'Doud' ('hey! Doud!' as a salutation doesn't offend me in the least)- I don't grok 'Mr.'
"...pound some fruit stakes in..." forget that $ action - 12-12-12 in a bag from TSC is just fine - "two have only a few blossoms this year, but the other three are big balls of white flowers" OK, here's some actionable intelligence - the ones with 'few blossoms' are exhibiting 'biennial bearing' - I would deduce they had a large crop of fruit last year and were too busy trying to mature it to initiate blossom buds for this year (2010 bloom will be initiated in august 2009) - so, the 'few blossom' trees you would prune more lightly this year - make a few strategic cuts to define/maintain the basic shape of the tree - remove any dead or entangled limbs and leave it at that - heavy pruning will result in rank growth - without a good fruit load the tree will put all it's energy into vegetative growth - your 'snowball' trees you will want to make the same strategic cuts that define the shape/limits of the tree, but then you can make more, smaller, detailing cuts to even out the density of the fruiting volume - pictures?"there's enough for everyone"
we got the 12-12-12 in the barn, never really gave it a glance for the trees. but during the Summer I do spray them all with Miracle GroOboy , thanks for that, I would have gone crazy on the few blossoms, and yeah they were heavy last year
I'll get some pics tomorrow..Onr thing I saw a few hours ago, an Oriole was snooping around in the blossoms..
bugs?.
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David, I'm following this post with great interest. Thanks!!BTW, I too don't like MR. I tell people "Mr. Butler is in the cemetery in Homestead, FL." Around here, Mid. TN, the custom is to use
"Mr. Walter" or "Miss Emily". (Insert your name of choice.)
I will get those pictures today...... promise!my wifes GF had problems at her place and I spent yesterday over there fixing the broken Sat dish coax, the garden tractor that had some sort of coax wrapped up in it...... got the tiller running and helped worm some lambs... but I made $5.
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OK Doud, I resized them but the detail got smooshed, so I left one big,.
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I haven't forgotten this - just been real busy - I'll get back in another day or so - "there's enough for everyone"
okey dokey Doud.
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man.... i'm reading along ... and bam... the thread falls off a cliff !
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Shhhhhhhh. The Apples are having SEX.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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ya, that's kinda the way it works - no more sex this year....
I feel kinda bad leaving maddog hanging - I need someway to take pictures and put arrows on them - can you do something like that with your mac?
and I'm just not very enthused - busy selling strawberries and trying to keep up with the other crops - between the picture limits and the tavern purging... bah - - - I've got a whole nuther picture thread ready, but I'm not going to play games - I suppose I'm capable of learning to use 'photobucket' or whatever it is, as soon as someone gets it all figured out and posts the step by step -
but #### - why bother if taunton doesn't appreciate it? - the single best feature of the forum and they not only don't care/tend/nurture it, but seem to be oblivious of the high quality information being freely presented -
if I was going to manage an online 'fine' homebuilding publication, these picture threads from you and walter and the guy in japan and stan and dovetail and on and on beats the hell out of any of their blogs -
eh - I luv ya, smith - even if taunton doesn't -
View Image"there's enough for everyone"
i know a little about grafting apples...and grafting roses.... is there any other species that is commonly grafted ?
what is peculiar to the apple that it takes so well to grafting?
all that wood seems to meld togetherMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
well, using the term loosely, there are hundreds of species that are grafted - you can put hops on marijuana roots and get psycho active hop leaves - uses a micro grafting technique that's a bit fussy -nut trees are commonly done, but they tend to be very demanding of technique and timing - just about all fruit is propagated this way - pome - citrus - I guess tomatoes come mostly from seed - you can graft a potato top on tomato roots and grow the worlds most worthless plant...I don't know of any specie that is easier to do than apple - pear is close maybe - temperate plants, so you can collect dormant wood and store it and graft it later onto actively growing roots - nice thick (relatively) cambium layer - seldom any incompatibility factorsjust the way the flying spaghetti monster designed it..."there's enough for everyone"
David,Thanks for the thread. Been enjoying it from afar.You can use Gimp to put the arrows on images. http://www.gimp.org/It's free and they have versions for both PC and Mac. On top of that it's a really great program.Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I just use dry erase markers on the monitor, but they don't show up when I post em.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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"I would like to know if pruning will stop most of the apples from falling off the trees like rain"well, probably not - but it's a good start - once the crop is set (there is an event called 'June drop' where small fruit fall off as the tree adjusts the crop load to the season) fruit that falls off before the normal harvest date will have a problem - disease, curculio, codling moth, apple maggot - - pruning lets you do a good job of pest control - that will reduce summer drop to a minimum - "there's enough for everyone"
pests. at our old place well we tried everything "natural" we sprinkled Baking Soda, on the ground, I sprayed it all over anything woody, we had a few Cedars nearby that we cut down,
we raked all the leaves up, picked up apples till we went insane
I experimented with the light oils when they came out, but was always fearful of damaging the spruces and pines.a couple years back we had great apples on one tree, they were fantastic having never eaten a whole apple just off the tree.. OMG.... in fact we noticed that the fruit NEVER turned brown after biting into it.
So we are hooked on fresh apples that are eaten less than 10 seconds after they are picked..
and have become believers in the benefits of"An Apple a Day..........".
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really, about the only time it's a mistake to prune is right before a major freeze - my 'rule of thumb' = "prune away what you can't reach, thin what is left" - prime fruit bearing volume is from 3' up to 8' more or less - I see people that like to prune so they can walk/drive the mower under the tree and that moves much of the fruit out of reach, of both spraying and picking - a neglected tree needs to be brought under control in several modest prunings - don't take more than 20-25% of the volume at any one time - get up and wood out of the top and get light to the bottom tier - you should be removing the stuff that is impossible to get to (- - don't do much to the bottom tier except removing dead/broken/entangled branches - let them have a season of sunlight and work the tree again next (early) spring - remove 'suckers' (soft upright growth) this august - at the right time (before they harden) you just break them out by grasping and pulling away and down - most satisfying - what do you have for a ladder? how big/old are your trees?"there's enough for everyone"
David, & everybody else - I love you all! I always learn something new on BT - this is a great thread! Thanks!
I noticed out mowing last evening, that one of my trees is already bulging with a little apples. About the size of a marble, I hadn't thought we were that much earlier than you.
Thanks for the pruning tips, I too need to get a handle on the wild growth and impossible to reach apples.
Alas, I am inundated with the web worms as well, nasty critters. Have you a preferred treatment or eradication program for them ? Maybe a more common name would be "Tent caterpillers". I had wanted to lop the offending webs away before they hatched out, but they got ahead of me.
I didn't forget your tub, I just hadn't gotten it un-junked yet, but I can see part of it!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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tent caterpillars? Sevin - use it now and thin your crop too - lots of bloom on your trees this year?"there's enough for everyone"
I don't know what a "LOT" of blooms are, but yeah, it was showy. Rain has knocked off about all now.
I will do the sevin after a pole prune.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I was reading in my book that things in the Prunus genus don't like pruning in winter bec silver-leaf disease and canker gain easy entry then. These authors advocated late spring or summer pruning, but only after the buds break.Have you heard that?
I've never dealt with 'silver leaf' - had to google it - I'm sure it must be a problem in other climates - from the google hits, it looks like a big deal in England - I can believe with their mild winters spreading disease during winter pruning would be of concern - canker is a big deal here (stone fruit) - I keep a spray bottle of alcohol and disinfect the tools frequently - Ideally, you would prune the week before the buds break in the spring - the cold of winter has killed a large percent of the pathogens and the danger of winter injury from the pruning cuts is past - as a practical matter, anyone with more than a few trees has to work at it during other times - canker spreads the worst for me during the summer - injury - wind/hail - and it shows up on every tree - I'd think it could be spread in pruning cuts just as easily, so I don't really understand how the authors think time of pruning avoids infection, tho no doubt they have a rational - speaking of pruning from earlier, google 'Jean Marie Lespinasse' - a French horticulturalist who I look to as an elite when it comes to understanding tree physiology - he groks apple trees - google will translate pages for you, poorly, but good enough to get an understanding - I've got a couple of copies in english I've made from the Dwarf Fruit Tree Association publications that he authored, tho it's still a bit of struggle to get around the vocabulary - http://eap.mcgill.ca/CPTFP_1.htm"there's enough for everyone"
Well, i struggled through in the translation, plus the French when the translation boggled me. I now wonder why "casse-tete" is translated "puzzle" in one place and "headache" in another.Trigemme...is that the cross, resulting in large fruit, of the 2n and 4n you mentioned earlier? Am i way off base?
I be back tomorrow - bedtime -
D"there's enough for everyone"
alright , now we're cookin, I have a little chainsaw pole pruner that is going to finally get a workout !the trees are about 18 YO and the tallest is probably 18-20', were planted by the previous owner who is a good friend, and does not know the varieties, but she bought them at some County program so, I'm guessing they were typical Jonathan , Winesap,..... etc.I have an 8' step ladder that will have to work, since the trees are pruned from the bottom, which we will now stop doing !going after some of the smaller ones starting this morning
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I think I've figured out the cross-forum pic posting thing. I tried it once - Linked to a pic here in a thread over at cook's talk. I could see the picture plainly, but no one else could.I think if you ahve a window open in BOTH forums you can see pics linked to another forum. ie: I had a thread open at BT so I could copy the picture links. But anyone who was only logged into CT couldn't see the pics.Wouldn't bet my life on that. But it's a good story, so I'm gonna go with it.(-:
A thing is not necessarily true because badly uttered, nor false because spoken magnificently [St. Augustine]
David, i'm feeling kinda stupid, but this is the third time i've read the thread and i'm still confused. The pollen you collected is labeled 13T-139 and you pollinated a 13T-139 tree with it? Or is the pollen from Honeycrisp and Ralls Genet trees? How do you decided which is the pollenizer? Do you get anything different if you switch the male and female roles of the varieties? Do you get mules and hinnies? Are all the seeds in one apple identical? One tree? ~Colleen, Appalled at all this sex under my nose
the pollen I was applying to the 13T139 was from HoneyCrisp -
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as a general principle, it doesn't matter which is the pollen parent - there are special circumstances where certain varieties are pollen sterile or there may be an issue with taking the pollen one direction that disappears going the other way, but those are the exceptions -
all seeds contained in an apple are different individuals, just as each pup of a litter would be different -
there are also some special circumstances with 2n and 4n (diploid and tetraploid) breeding (that doesn't apply to my crosses this year) - take 2n pollen to a 4n flower and end up with 3n seeds - triploids apples tend to be big - Jonagold is triploid, Mutsu is triploid, Stayman is triploid, etc - and are pollen sterile -
don't know where I was going with that, I'll leave it there, as I must return to work - "there's enough for everyone"
excellent....
more if you would please maestro...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Stupid question: Why do you do this?
I think I remember reading that apples don't breed true, meaning that if you have an apple you like, and plant it's seeds, you won't get the same apples on the offspring tree. If you want the same apple, you need to have to get new trees by starting clippings. True? If not, I get it, but if so, what do you get by crossbreeding if the apples you get won't pass their traits to the next generation?
My guess is that you are trying to produce an offspring tree, more or less by chance, that you can later use for cuttings, right?
Having said that, I'm gonna be thinking of hot apple pie all day now. Thanks. ;-(
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
"Why do you do this?"
for posterity and a shot at 'immortality'
About MAIA, the Midwest Apple Improvement Association
There is a need for a Midwest apple breeding program. As current apple breeding programs are unlikely to produce varieties that will be economically viable for the lower Midwest
Mission Statement
To develop Economically and Culturally Viable Apple Cultivars for the Midwest
Goals and Activities
Champion the cause (the need for a Midwest apple-breeding program), and build a viable membership organization covering the Midwest.
Carry out a grower driven, grower involved breeding program with the help of the Ohio State University and other research institutions.
Develop and carry out a marketing program for the varieties developed including nursery stock and the apples.
Apple Breeding Objectives
Reliable and productive cropping equal to or better than Golden Delicious
Fireblight resistances
Scab resistances
Consumer qualities acceptable to the modern consumer: size, firmness, store-ability, flavor, unique qualities and maturity fitting with current or other new varieties to lengthen the apple harvest and marketing season.
The opportune time is now. Kazakstan apple genetic material, which has been made available to Midwest growers, offers some real hope for developing apple varieties suited to the Midwest. The USDA collected plants have been screened for frost tolerance and disease resistance.
The Kazakstan plant samples have a vast array of diverse genetics. Crossbreeding Kazakstan stock with the best modern varieties will provide new sources of disease resistance, cropping reliability and unique quality characteristics.
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/maia/default.html
"there's enough for everyone"
THIS is why I still have eight foot lengths of maple lying in my driveway! All this time I thought you were working and instead you're having threesomes with apple trees....what a surprise to find someone I actually know on Breaktime.
Neil
well, I spend much less time at apple sex than I do here on breaktime, so let's be clear on the problem -
and 'member since 3/28/06'? where were you when we were festing here last summer?
anyway, make friends with those logs, give them names, play soft music to them - their time is short - "there's enough for everyone"