Replies

1. 
   renosteinke | Dec 09, 2007 12:39am | #1

   Strictly speaking, an apprentice is not supposed to do anything unless under the direct supervision of a journeyman. That said, the supervision tends to become more lax as the apprentices' skills accumulate.

   I am well aware that this rule is frequently ignored, sometimes to the extent that one apprentice might actually be asked to run a job, and call the office if there's an issue. It's not right, but it happens.

   A journeyman is expected to have a 'basic set' of skills, and be able to work unsupervised.

   A master is expected to have the competence to make design decisions, to run a job, and represent the company during inspections.

2. 
   plumbbill | Dec 09, 2007 02:38am | #2

   Define "him/herself".

   Without the journeyman on the jobsite?

   I give tasks to apprentices to go do on a certain area of the job by themselves to see what they know & what they have learned.

   I'm not big on teaming workers up unless it's a two man job.

   If you never make a mistake, then you have never learned anything. I do a lot of checking on progress & quality without being a bird dog. I have noticed most apprentices I have had over the years appreciate that I gave them the responsibility to get the job done. i do get complaints from lazy journeyman that I am making them work by themselves.

   Legality varies by state, my state (WA) it's a 1 to 1 ratio------ 1 licensed journeyman for every non licensed worker.

   My union has a 4 to 1 ratio, 1 apprentice for every 4 journeyman.

   My union does allow a 4th yr apprentice to work unsupervised, but not more than 2 days in a row.

   Ofcourse not all these rules are always followed, I've been a foreman for the most part since I was a first year apprentice, & that led to a few calls to the hall complaining about me being in charge.

   We do not recognize the "master plumber" status in the state of WA, I did meet a guy who said he was a master plumber----- he worked at home depot.

    

   "Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother

1. 
   art2251 | Dec 09, 2007 02:52am | #3

   The situation is that I got the name of a plumber from a co-worker. The co-workers friend's husband is the plumber. He came to my house and I told him I wanted a utility sink put in the basement (I need an ejection pump because the waste exits about halfway up the basement wall). He checked around for hot and cold water, vents, etc., and said he would be in touch. I checked the State of Mass web site and found that his license is an apprentice license. He presented himself as his own business. I wanted to find out if this job is OK for him to do.

1. 
   plumbbill | Dec 09, 2007 03:07am | #4

   I highly doubt that would be legal---- in my state it would not be legal.

   In my state that job would require a permit, to obtain a plumbing permit you either need to be the home owner or a licensed plumber with a business license.

   I'm only addressing the legality, cause that job in particular a non licensed handy guy could do ( skill wise), but I also know journeyman plumbers who could not handle that.

   "Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother

2. 
   bobl | Dec 09, 2007 05:22pm | #6

   'I checked the State of Mass web site and found that his license is an apprentice license.IIRC in Mass an apprentice can only work under supervision of a Master Plumber.'t ever remember hearing about an apprentice license, going to have to ask. 

   bobl          Volo, non valeo

   Baloney detecter    WFR

   "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

2. 
   talkingdog | Dec 09, 2007 04:57pm | #5

   >>We do not recognize the "master plumber" status in the state of WATotally OT, but this reminds me of the fact that, instead of reducing the number of classes of craftsmen, the Japanese have recently created a new class above "master"--called "super"and targeting extremely senior craftsmen who have outstanding skills and expertise.

3. 
   renosteinke | Dec 09, 2007 08:40pm | #7

   I just occurred to me that your question can be understood in two ways.

   If you're asking 'can the boss give me a job to do, then drive away?', that's a fair question. Chances are he's not supposed to do that.

   If you're asking "Can I develop my own customers after work, on my own time?", the answer is "absolutely not."

   First of all, because there's no sense in letting a POS 'side job' putting your real job at risk.

   Secondly, working without the proper license sets you up to get a royal screwing.

   Third, such jobs open up all manner of ethical issues.

   Finally ... and I know this is hard to believe ... but even a new Journeyman is only beginning his education. I've seen it so many times ... Second-year guys say 'I'm practically a journeyman, all I need is to put in my time;' the Fourth year guys say 'holy cow, there's so much I have yet to learn!'

4. 
   bobbys | Dec 10, 2007 02:13am | #8

   i know this is not to the Q but was surprized when the plumber said i could have my own plumbing biz here in OR as long as i hired journeymen plumbers, The plumbers start the guys then leave them where there supposed to be there.

1. 
   plumbbill | Dec 10, 2007 06:57am | #9

   It's the same in Washington.

   there is two types of contracting licenses, general & specialty.

   So you can have a plumbing business, but in order to obtain a permit someone at the company has to have a plumbing license.

   "Why do you hurt me when I do bad things to you?" My youngest son to his older brother