OK so here is the idea:
I’m too busy (just turned away 3 jobs), so I could use some help. With the troubled economy, I fear adding a full-time helper. I could offer the right person room and board (in a studio apt.) and a half-time apprenticeship in trim carpentry (training in lieu of wages) and feed extra work along for the other 20 hours per week. This could be for 2-6 mos. After a 30 day trial period?
This would be the kind of thing a “journeyman” used to do. It would be for a footloose person who wants a change of scenery and work, who already has a basic carpentry skill set, and wants to learn some serious trim carpentry.
Any interest? Crazy idea or not?
Replies
Brian,
I already said I would love that.
Unfortunately, the wife and kids might have something to say about it.
Probably 'Get out!'
Wish it could be me.
Glenn
Glenn, I hear you,Have to be in a rather footloose stage of life. Maybe someone here has a crew or , but things are slowish and they have someone who wants to step up their game.If it is someone good, I could learn too...carpentry "cross-pollination." Just a hands on idea exchange...BT tech school of sorts. I have the room to grow an apprenticeship program (shop space and lodging) and I used to be a science teacher...so I have some education experience.Could be a new niche?Regards,Brian
don't cause my divorce, Brian
Stay put man.I'll train an apprentice and send them out to you.Have a great day,Bass
Great. So the apprentice will be training me.So much for my ego.Good luck.Glenn
Hmmm. Maybe not then.Well, I post most stuff that I think might possibly be helpful here anyway. Just thought someone might be able to jump in and learn my ecclectic approach to trim work in person.All the best,Brian
"Have to be in a rather footloose stage of life"
I'm waiting for that stage. How will I know when it's here?
""Have to be in a rather footloose stage of life"
I'm waiting for that stage. How will I know when it's here?"When you move to a small town that doesn't allow dancing
and you drive a VW beetle
and you meet up with a preachers daughter that has a great a$$
and make friends with a dufus that can't dance.Thats when you are in your "Footloose" stage of life. ;-)
Mike,It may have already come and gone. I'm hoping for a second ramblin' period though (in a few years).Cheers,BC
I think you should charge them. If you have a teaching degree. 4 students at a time. 6 week course. $250 each.
I taught science for 7 years before I realized I liked my summer job better...one Fall I just didn't go back...been playing hookie ever since.I'm a better carpenter than teacher...but could teach some pretty good carpentry, I think.I might start out by not charging, but not paying either...then go more formal and start charging after I get a system down.Thanks for the advice,Brian
You may have to charge them to get serious students. I am paying $250 gonna learn something.
That may be a valid point. I took college more seriously than many of my peers who did not have to foot the bill.Then again, I took the JLC Live sessions, that were free, seriously too.Thanks for the advice,BC
Not crazy at all.
My 25 year old son has worked under similar arrangements several times.
Each time he had a deep interest in what was being taught and stayed for the entire prearranged time.
Now if he could just decide what he wanted to do with the rest of his life he would have one up on his old man.
Find the right person and it should pay off for both parties.
Thanks for the feedback,This could be a way for me to keep doing the carpentry I love and apply my teaching background. Off to a meeting and a staircase,BC
Fantastic idea.
I'm nearing 40 but always have too much more to learn. Had dreamed about volunteering myself with a 'master' on a smaller, shorter scale... one big job maybe... and to write about the experience for an article. Now I have the house, the kid, the work...
Indeed apprenticeship only happens by necessity or accident now--for those lucky enough to find themselves working for somebody special who truly knows the trade and has an interest in passing it on.
go for it!
I'm rather tied down myself for another 5 years or so...then the nest will be empty (will still have the house, bills, business though).Glad the idea has some appeal.Thanks,Brian
I've got at the very least, barring early admission to college, sports or music stardom,
14 years.
Got room for two dogs and five cats??? LOL...sounds like a great idea, Brian. Footloose is good...
Hosted my MIL for the year (during the past year--cancer recovery) and she had two dogs and one cat...did not mix well with our dog and three cats. I like animals...but, it was too much for me! Too much MIL, as well (all things in moderation, as they say).The apprenticeship may just remain a good idea, for the time being, but sooner or later I'll find a taker.Most here have obligations, but one of their crew members might be up for it.I'm still have to finish the studio apt. in the far end of the ballroom, but if I have a taker, it will be motivation to finish that project.Cheers,Brian
I luuuv animals, but my OWN pets are often too much for me! I seldom take them to other people's houses unless it can't be avoided. I once took my retriever to an art fair in California; we were both wrecks before it was over, though having someone to talk to while driving was nice. <G> I'll bet you're glad to have your house back from both the two-legged and four-legged visitors. Still, good on ya for helping out.
Like many others who posted, I would take you up on your offer, but am married.
Would beat what I'm doing now, working with a guy who uses me mostly when he needs a strong back. I usually disagree with his methods, so am not learning a lot from him (except, maybe, patience!).
Danno,Maybe I should think of a one or two week short course...since most here seem to have many obligations.How does that sound?
Maybe more doable, but don't know that I coul;d even get away that long--wife is brittle diabetic and I left her for two weeks this spring to go to Alabama to work on Katrina damaged house--no problems, except she stayed "high" (purposefully kept blood sugar high so as not to go into shock) and that decreases her life span and opens her to diabetic retinopathy (which she already has in one eye). (I won't go on any more of those trips--I do this stuff for a living and had to argue and fight every step of the way to do things right. Just isn't worth it to me to subject myself to that. Each time I've gone in the past I left saying "Never again," but this time I stayed two weeks instead of one, it was very expensive because church we were supposed to stay in let us down, and whereas I thought they'd see from my past work that I really do know what I'm doing, the retired chmists and so on always felt they knew better that I did how to fix up a house. (Lastly I became very sick from carbon monoxide from a space heater and they said it couldn't have been from that, so....)
But, for others it may be just the ticket--sort of a sabatical or learning vacation. My wife is talking about visiting a cousin and his wife who run a pottery shop somewhere across Lake Michigan from us--maybe I could slip away then! Don't remember if it's in Wisconsin or Minnesota.
Maybe Andyfew's parents would let him come out for a summer apprenticeship.
He might already have a dozen lawn care customers to keep up with this summer...he needs to get his own apprentice so he can get away next summer. ;o)
I'm too busy (just turned away 3 jobs), so I could use some help. With the troubled economy, I fear adding a full-time helper.
I don't get it, there's plenty of work, you turned down 3 jobs, what "troubled economy" are you talking about? Troubled economy in the east don't translate to troubled economy here in the midwest necessarily. Hasn't really effected us down here to the south of you.
Bringing in a green apprentice isn't going to help you catch up on work, probably slow you down some.
This would be the kind of thing a "journeyman" used to do.
There's a reason that doesn't work anymore. Read some of the stories about those apprentices, they were treated just short of slave laborers.
I don't understand if the jobs are there why you wouldn't take on an employee? Things go south they get laid off, happens all the time, it's called running a business!
I'd also wonder about providing some sort of workmans comp, taxes, ..........do you cross some line with Uncle Sam in this deal of yours? Wouldn't you be opening yourself up to some serious financial risk if this apprentice got hurt, or is he/she expected to carry some sort of insurance policy on no pay?
Doug
Doug, You seem to enjoy being the contrarian.The housing slow down is not just east...plenty of it here in the Midwest. The Twin Cities have been rather hard hit, as has Rochester where I used to get about half of my work.Winona started a slump several years before either of those markets and continues to be slow. I have plenty of work. But this is not a good time to add employees. I just dropped one last year.I am not looking for a "green apprentice" either. There are plenty of reasonably skilled folks, who would benefit from seeing a few different ways of doing certain tasks. That is what the journeyman is all about. The journeyman is not "green."The journeyman is a fine tradition, not at all as you characterize it.I would have to look into the WC and insurance issues. I have put some really green understudies through their paces as part of a vo-tech program where all of the liabilty of the students was handled by the school. I will check into how they worked that program.The proposal here just might work for someone. If not, that is fine too.I am at the point in my career where I am thinking more of giving back and using my teacher training, but within the trade of carpentry, rather than science, this time around.As far as business management, I thought you preferred to be an employee and leave that stuff to others.Regardless, it seems like you have little interest in reviving the journeyman tradition. I still think it has possibilities.Brian
You seem to enjoy being the contrarian.
Not really but you mentioned an apprentice, not a journeyman. I don't think an apprentice will speed things up for you and I doubt that you would find someone that has enough experience to benefit you that would be willing to work for a roof over their heads, maybe, but I'm guessing it would be difficult. JMO.
The journeyman is a fine tradition, not at all as you characterize it.
Again, you mentioned getting an apprentice, are you offering to make someone a journeyman? I missed it if you did. I didn't characterize journeymen as anything, don't know where you're reading that.
As far as business management, I thought you preferred to be an employee and leave that stuff to others.
What I do with myself and running a business really doesn't have anything to do with weather or not I can offer up opinions on the subject, or does it? I do work for someone, I also did equivalent work, monetarily speaking, on the side last year, will probably do more this year. So technically I do run a business, I just don't have to depend on it like others. I have to do everything for those side jobs that you real businessmen have to do for your jobs, no difference, I just get to be more picky about the stuff I take on for myself.
Regardless, it seems like you have little interest in reviving the journeyman tradition. I still think it has possibilities.
I wasn't aware that the journeyman tradition was dead.
I only made a comment regarding the journeymen of old because that's what you referred to, remember? The apprentices that lived and worked for a shelter over their heads in return for the opportunity to learn a skill?
I'm all for the apprenticeship program, I wish the carpenters union(not bringing up the union thing to get into a union/nonunion debate but that's the only place around here that offers apprenticeship programs) had a better program around here for carpenters. The electrical and plumbing programs in this area are a real good place for a young person to apprentice at, I was always trying to get my oldest son interested in the electrical union/program but.......
You have no knowledge of my opinions on journeymen or apprenticeship programs so not sure how you could make those generalizations?
I brought up the insurance/tax/workmans comp idea because we are not in the days of old where someone got hurt and they went there merry way, toughed it out the rest of their life, were in a very litigious society today, as I know you are very aware.Mythoughts on that subject was that you could be leaving yourself very vulnerable to the possibility of a financial catastrophe, don't really matter to me how you go on this, just offered up my opinion on it, that's still allowed right?
The real gist of my post which you seamed to glean over was that I didn't think it would be very easy to find someone to work for a roof over their head and that you might be better off hiring/subbing taking on a part time partner if there is that much work to do. We are not all that far apart geographically and we just hired a new guy, I know of other places that have taken on new, not replacements, employees, so if the work is there I don't see why not hire, if your interest is to teach then great but you did start your post off with "I've turned down 3 jobs today" not I'm looking to "give back"
I commend you for wanting to teach, its not part of my abilities to do so, I'm not a teacher. Doesn't mean I don't want people to learn, just that they could do better with someone else. I have no patience for it.
Doug
I mentioned in the OP that this is the kind of thing a journeyman used to do. I stated that it was for "person who wants a change of scenery and work, who already has a basic carpentry skill set, and wants to learn some serious trim carpentry."The internship I served for 3 months at the end of my college career in forestry was unpaid, but provided training, room and board. Colorado State actually discouraged businesses from paying interns. It was a marvelous experience for me.Your response to my explanation of this as a "journeyman" experience was:"There's a reason that doesn't work anymore. Read some of the stories about those apprentices, they were treated just short of slave laborers."I do think journeyman and apprenticeship programs are virtually non-existent in residential carpentry.There is a builder here, who has a good young lead carpenter. He hires me to do trim and cabinets with him and I am training him in the finer points of trim work. I realize that I am training up a competitor in my own market. I don't worry too much about that--I do want to pass skills on the the next generation and I think I will always have plenty of work.That said, it might not be wise to train a trim carp for every builder in town...that is one reason getting people in from other places would be better.Doodabug (Dallas) suggested that I should charge tuition to get students that are serious.I've worked with 4 apprentice/helpers over the years, only one was both talented and really into absorbing all he could (one was interested, but not talented...another talentd but not interested...the other was just waiting for something else). I am still working with the serious kid (for the builder).Anyways, wasn't looking to argue.Gotta run...a staircase is waiting, nothing too elaborate, but a few curved parts and some cherry rail and white painted balusters...I'll have fun with it though.Peace,BC
Brian
I do think journeyman and apprenticeship programs are virtually non-existent in residential carpentry.
I agree and as I said, I commend you for wanting to teach. You've heard my feelings regarding that in person and on here, I'm no teacher.
I've read numerous stories about the ole days and the furniture apprentices, it wasn't all that fun for a lot of them. Your experience with the forestry department wouldn't be compared to what went on way back in those days.
I've have heard of apprenticeship programs that don't pay, I think Frenchy mentioned some that his daughter could have been or would have been involved in had she had the opportunity.
I just don't see this trade getting that same respect, hell it's OK for electricians and plumbers to have a good apprenticeship program but everybody owns a hammer so it cant be that difficult!
Doug
Doug, I just talked with the inspector yesterday (had him check the stairs)...permits for new construction and remodeling in Winona this year...TWO (ytd)! He said that is by far the lowest he has seen (a typical year would have 10-15 permits by this date). Activity has dropped by half the last 3 years in a row. I keep hearing that it is bad...but don't worry too much--it is worse than I thought.He was surprised that I was staying busy. He said most carpenters are slow or completely dead. I told him some commercial work and some shop projects help...and that I work in the surrounding area (not just in Winona).I also work for about the only builders around that are still busy. The house I am working in now is the only new house being built in a new subdivision. I did just get plans for a new house to trim this Oct/Nov. and I know I will stay busy 'til then. Still, not the best time to hire IMO.Keepin' busy,Brian
How about Frenchy? He knows everything and is skilled in it all. Best of all, he already lives in your state.
I've already invited him down (and the offer still stands). Thought it might do him some good to get out and in the workforce (even if just for a day or two). Unemployment bites. Seemed like it was really getting to him.Thanks,Basswood
Well?
Did you get the room done?
Did ya get any takers?
IMWTK!
If you planted hope today, in any hopeless heart
If someone' s burden was lighter, because you did your part
If you caused a laugh, that chased a tear away
If tonight your name is mentioned, when someone kneels to pray
Then my friend, your day was well spent.
— Unknown author
i thought he shanghai'd colleen...... they rode off into the sunset together
hey... how's your golf game comming ?
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 9/26/2008 4:09 pm ET by MikeSmith
Hey Mike -
I gotta come apprentice with you on some course for a bit, for that golfing by me to reach any kind of a "game" descriptor... <g>
Right now - I got 69.5 hrs of "use or lose" vacation time to take between now and end of the year - but the complication is scheduling it. Here's why:
I've already got 2 weeks off this month (the cancelled China trip) - and those hours I'll be using are already "use or lose"...
The other 4 (out of 5) mgrs have holiday time off priority because I had both Turkey Day and XMAS off last year...
And I've got a biz trip gotta take for a week in early November.
So - I'm home today - having a pajama day - trying to browse BT to see if purchasing a Mannington engineered flooring product called "Heritage Hickory Plank" is a good move or not. Trying to figure out how all the web retailers have jacked up their prices from what they were for this same product 3 months ago (when I looked and printed out pages) - and yet they're all screaming they've got big sales and specials and blah blah blah...
Maybe I'll just log off and go mow my weeds. (But that is exactly why the bare concrete floor in my LR has been that way for over a year! no shid. I got the worst of y'all beat when it comes to incomplete honey do's - and iz my own dang list! LOL!)
oh yeah - b4 I forget - was thinking about Helen the other day. I bought my tickets for NZ for Feb 09. Purchased some NZD online from http://www.forex.com and you wouldn't believe the dang scrutiny I went thru to purchase some relatively small amount of foreign currency! You'd think I was some major threat to homeland security or something...
Then again - I could while away many more hours before tonite's first Prez debate, by just reading WSJ or more SLATE articles on the whole friggin financial crisis.
Grab a bowl of ice cream and totally lose my self and any momentum altogether.
OR
Think about bugging Basswood to teach me a few things during some time off I gotta take here, and soon, if I'm going to use it at all.
there. How's THAT for a stream of consciousness?!?!?!?
If you planted hope today, in any hopeless heart
If someone' s burden was lighter, because you did your part
If you caused a laugh, that chased a tear away
If tonight your name is mentioned, when someone kneels to pray
Then my friend, your day was well spent.
— Unknown author
I think you have too much time on your hands, and can't decide what to do next.
C'mon out to Colorado and we will pack a picnic basket and go for a ride in the aspens, they're changing color now.
'Me not built for pretty - Me built for strong' TM
You ALMOST got it right...
I got vacation time to but and a SHIDLOAD of both biz and personal stuff to do.
AND the idea of waltzing away and going on a picnic sounds EVER so much better than doing any of it.
I need to find a way to squelch my overdeveloped sense of responsibility. Really detracts from my ability to have fun...
<g>
If you planted hope today, in any hopeless heart
If someone' s burden was lighter, because you did your part
If you caused a laugh, that chased a tear away
If tonight your name is mentioned, when someone kneels to pray
Then my friend, your day was well spent.
— Unknown author
I just read about your travails in another thread. You do have to learn to stop and smell the picnic once in a while.
I hope things ease up for you soon, and how about a rain check?
'Me not built for pretty - Me built for strong' TM
Thanks buddy.
and
ck yur email when ya gots a minute
"Be yourself...everyone else is already taken." — Unknown author
Mizshredder,I have not yet worked on the little studio apt. I do plan on getting to that soon though. I got sidetracked by some foundation work (big fun) and on a bathroom for the two teenage daughters.I did get some interest in the apprentice gig, but no takers.It is nice to hear that you would consider it. I do have some fun stuff going (more fluted columns, custom cabinets for a showroom, a mudroom, and a master bath). I also get to do a rustic, massive fireplace mantle, in alder. Also have remodels of a couple kitchens and a couple of bathrooms ahead. Booked for about 4 months. I'll keep you posted,Brian
No problem.
If you planted hope today, in any hopeless heart
If someone' s burden was lighter, because you did your part
If you caused a laugh, that chased a tear away
If tonight your name is mentioned, when someone kneels to pray
Then my friend, your day was well spent.
— Unknown author
What you got against Bass?
thats funny but probably falls under cruel & unusual punishment
Brian
There was a time here in the 80's that Linn Co. Iowa, which is where Cedar Rapids is located, had only three building permits taken out for new home construction. I think normal would be in the several hundred range(cant say exactly but I do know of two builders that do about 140 each per year, throw in all the others and .......well you do the math!).
I knew of two guys that did remodel work, never missed any work for those years in the 80's that times were slim. Both produce high quality work, one who I wish I would have worked under for some sort of apprenticeshiping, always told me this, "I was known as someone who was very expensive but very good, the best reputation you can have", I know for a fact that that statement was true.
The money people always seam to be doing something to their places, in good and bad times.
I'm not trying to convince you to hire someone, that's obviously got to be your decision. I'm only suggesting that if you had some other help then maybe you wouldn't have to turn any of this other work down. Maybe the sub deal would be of benefit to you. Someone that you can still make a few buck an hour from and also someone that you don't have any obligation to when the work is not there(god forbid that happen).
I'm glad that your keeping busy, the good guys seam to do so in lean times. I don't try to think of the economy to much, don't want anything jinxing it or negative thoughts regarding it. Just want to keep on going and not look around to much.
I have a gazebo to build(side job) that will probably hit five figures so I know that no matter what happens I have work for the whole year, after that ??????
Enjoy the holiday, forget about work for a while!
Doug
basswood,
I can't believe i didn't see this earlier
I have often thought about the same thing
I question wether it would even be legal though--- and how checking out the legality of it would actually work out.
i had a young man working with me this year that would have been nearly ideal
20 years old---- i have known him and his family for 6-7 years. he was an excellent high school athlete----tried college( 2 in fact wilthout much interest or success)
my wife and I had dinner with his parents on Saturday---- mother says she looks forward to him being someone elses responsibility
gotta say-he worked with me this year up untill a couple weeks ago---and he gave me ZERO problems----showed up every day--the first few weeks 10 minutes late every day-------everday after that about 10 minutes EARLY
worked hard at whatever i had him do-----largely humping shingles up a ladder or cleaning up debris or setting up or taking down equipment.
i started him this spring before the rest of the crew---and he worked this fall longer than the rest of the crew.-since we both knew up-front he wasn't interested in roofing/carpentry as a career------- i didn't have him work with tools much
BUT-- he is smart, and if he HAD been interested I could see an arrangement like one year room and board, 15k or 20K for the year----- a few weeks he might work 60 plus hours---many weeks( from now untill spring he would barely work at all--- i could teach him how I advertise, market, and sell our services-- how I price, how to do the taxes, everything he needs to run a legit small time roofing/carpentry company and the money that can be made from it. he could have his own room and bathroom and essentially function as a surrogate son I suppose--definitely treated like one of the family
at the end of the year---- he would be in pretty good shape and totally ready to earn$$$ on his own
BUT- i doubt that arrangement is even legal
stephen