I’ve got a question I’d like to put out there. I expected that my question was one that would have been asked again and again, but since I couldn’t find anything similar, here we go!
I’m interested in pursuing employment as a trim carpenter. I’ve got a very stable work history, and I present myself well, but 90% of my experience is outside of a construction trade. At the same time, I’ve wanted to make this career change for years. I’ve done many jobs around my house as well as for family, friends and few neighbors, I’ve read virtually everything I’ve been able to find on the subject, and it’s something I just know I’m cut out for. I’ve got natural skills that definitely need refinement, but I’d make a valuable addition to many companies in an entry level position geared toward trim carpentry work.
Can anybody offer any thoughts on whether they feel it’s better to pursue this kind of a career change through a four-year apprenticeship program or through finding a reputable, high-quality builder and trying to get in with them? While I’m more than willing to put in the time as an apprentice, I aspire to work at a level similar to what I see in each issue of Fine Homebuilding. I’m definitely not trying to imply that I expect to start out at the top, but I appreciate the kind of work I see in FHB as fine art and most importantly, I want to learn how to do the work the right way, even if it’s not the least expensive way.
Any opinions or advice that anybody cares to offer would be very sincerely appreciated. Thank you in advance for any input.
John
Baltimore, MD
Replies
Good for you to want to enter the trades.
However, "I want to learn how to do the work the right way, even if it's not the least expensive way." is an attitude which can cause you problems. There is indeed a difference between the right way and the cheapest way. Unfortunately, in the real world of construction, there is an unfortunate emphasis on speed and production. There is lip-service paid towords safety but those who risk their necks and take chances and get the job done get promoted and those who balk about unsafe conditions are the ones left behind when lay-off time comes.
Most of the advice I've rec eived has been of the order of "Don't bother doing this or that" and "It will be covered up" "No one will see it" and the latest was "The Inspector didn't seem to care about lack of support so don't bother doing it."
With an apprenticeship, you will be lowly paid at first and will have to squeeze in classes. But you will end up knowing more than most of those fools who believe "Time is money". Yes, labor is paid by the hour and taking the little extra time to do the job right and safely and to clean up costs more. But this limited extent of their insect minds cannot deal with the calculus of the vastly additional costs of trouble shooting, failing inspections and call backs and a bad reputation.
Above all, save your paycheck stubs.
~Peter, former hairdresser for Mr. T
You could join the carpenters union. They have a four year program and you get paid to go to school. (At least in northern Il.) The union is not a bad gig and you will hear others say not to join,but you have to make your own choice. I worked non unoin for a few years and worked with hacks and very talented people and the same thing goes for the union. Now look at me I'm going off subject and talking union,but it is an option.
I went to work for a builder right out of high school, scraping out and running errands. Two years later I took a job with that same builders carpenter. I had raw skills but showed up on time and tried to learn.
Ten years later I have my own successfully bruises with one employee.
As far as my work goes, I don't do anything I wouldn't want my name on.
Some times its "affordable", most times its "really good". Don't be afraid to make money. Some customers are in the market for a ford, some customers are out to buy a Mercedes.
The good news is, you're only about 15 minutes away from working for a top trim company.
The bad news is, it might very well be a harsh reality check. The pace is fast and you won't emmediately be taken under someone's wing to learn the trade. Instead, you'll be watching the trim carps while you do the misc. crap work.
If you are truely ready to take the plunge and this isn't the career of the week, jump in and hold on tight.
Call around and talk to builders, trim suppliers, architects and anyone who might know who is doing the highest quality trim. Show up at the job site ready to work and let them know you'll work your hind end off to learn the trade from the bottom up.
It's easy to get in if you have a good attitude and it's even easier to get shown the door if you screw up early on.
To survive the first week you'll need to convince yourself that regardless of what people say you'll smile and tough it out. Don't sand anything in poor light--drag out a drop light and it will look like you know what's going on. Sweap floor with the largest broom, not the smallest. Show up 15 minutes earlier than the first guy to the job and offer to stay as late as the last guy to leave. Move quickly all day.
Even the highest quality trim has an element of production speed, so don't think the pace will ever slow down--there's always someone to replace slow trim carps.
You'll find most high-end trim carps follow basically the same procedures, although minor variations are everywhere. Some trim outfits insist on everyone following a set order for everything. You'd be wise to not second guess their procedures for anything since you don't know enough yet. Even the way the floor is swept is most likely a set procedure.
If after the first week you're still interested, start buying tools. Don't go cheap, but get the exact tools the experienced guys are using. If you have a grand laying around pick up two 50' flex-eel polyurethane hoses, a couple of air hose swivels (NAPA has a good one), a Senco 41xp 15 g. nailgun, a 21 g. pinner of your choice, an 18g. Senco 25xp brad nailer, Makita or Bosch electric hand plane, 5" hook & loop random orbit sander and 1/4 sheet sander (Makita/Bosch/Dewalt/Porter Cable), a couple of 25' 14 g. and 50' 12 g. yellow jacket extension cords, yellow jacket splitter, at least one cheap 500 wat work light, a decent jig saw and a Collins coping foot (Bosch is tops but newest model won't accept the CCP), Sandvik coping saw, low-angle block plane (Lie Nelson is best, but 3x the price), small finish hammer (12-16 oz.), compass for scribing, small trim bags and/or heavy duty apron, small japanese cat paw with wide/thin pry surface, sharp chisel, utility knife, 16' or 25' tape (stanley Max tapes are tops).
You'll want to try some miter saws before forking out a week's wages. Don't get excited about gimics and stay with what the experienced guys are using. Most will probably be using 12" double bevel Makita, Bosch or Dewalt. They will either cut everything with a 12" slider or have both a slider and non-slider. For your first saw you don't need the slider, but it will pay for itself shortly.
For a table saw just get one that is easy to set up and accurate. The Bosch is probably the hands down favorite. A makita 2703 with Rousoue (sp?) table is also good, but the bearings aren't as tight. The Dewalt portable is just as good, but heavier.
Your compressor doesn't have to be anything more than a good quality pancake.
Eventually you'll want a portable thickness planer.
Even though you can get by for a few years using the company compressor, table saw, and other stuff, you won't be seen as a full carpenter until you're tooled up.
If you are a quick learner it's possible to become a full trim carpenter in a few years since it's very repetative.
Finish carpenters, on the other hand, typically encompass a much wider variety of tasks than the trim carp. including windows, doors, stairs, cabinets, etc. There's much more to learn and it takes a lot longer to get good at it all.
My advice is to start at the top with the best of the best and move around every year or so to learn from a variety of carpenters. You'll soon see that many talk the talk, but few really put out consistant high-quality work.
Best of luck,
There's many paths you can take for this. It sounds like you are interested in the long haul, but you can't really know that until you're in the long haul, but you seem to have the right attitude.
A top of the line trim-finish carpenter should have knowlege in not only the hands on installation and techniques of the trade, but also have a strong knowlege of design, historic context and aesthetics. Keep in mind that most of the time you will not need the last three unless you're on your own because somebody else is worrying (or not) about it.
What you need at this point is hands on training, and a lot of it, with techniques, learning about different materials & different tools of the trade and what goes where and when.
Probably the very best way to learn is to find a really great trim carpenter and work as his helper, who is willing to take the time carefully explain things and show you on a one on one basis all the hows and whys. A mentor. You probably won't get that as they are rare.
If you really want to learn 'the right way', I would say keep up with the books and the reading and yes, explore what the union's apprentice programs are about. They may not be the very best, but at least they will teach you the proper ways and order of carpentry and you will come out having a good basic context.
My advice is for you to learn as much about carpentry in general before you leap into the trimwork. Frame for a while, then you will know the value of a straight wall as a trimmer. Install floors, make cabinets from scratch, do fondation work, learn structure.
Like any other phase of carpentry, trim has its production mode and there will be days where you have to think in this way where you are cutting multiples and are banging things out in a timely way while not skimping on quality.
You could also hire onto a high end company that does great trim work and if you're savvy enough you can eek your way into working with the trimmers. Just make it known.
It ain't all glory. There's an old Stanley 20 oz. hammer that lies somewhere on the bottom of the Hudson River from my winging it out there whilst railing at the gods after a particularly frustrating day 20 or so years ago.
Like any other sector of the trade it's all about practice, practice and more practice. You change a little, you learn a little more, you adapt to new materials, new tools, you try something that you think you can do, keep reading, you work with the best and those better than you, you learn the business, you succeed, you fail. But you keep on practicing. That's how you become good. That's how you become a tradesman.
Jer - I like the way you put that,
...it's all about practice, practice and more practice. You change a little, you learn a little more, you adapt to new materials, new tools, you try something that you think you can do, keep reading, you work with the best and those better than you, you learn the business, you succeed, you fail. But you keep on practicing. That's how you become good. That's how you become a tradesman.
Now, you think you could get that message out to a couple million hacks?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thanks
"Now, you think you could get that message out to a couple million hacks?"
Too busy....practicing.
I have a small trim carpentry company in a rural region [ upstste NY ] and so I find it hard to hire experienced trim guys. I have had some success with hiring guys with an apptitude for the trade but little experience ,and training them to do finish work. If you present yourself well and apply yourself 100% ,I'm sure that you could get someone to give you a shot.
I look for guys who are obviously clean and sober, organized, and polite. If they show up for the interview a few minutes early I'm impressed. If they have their own tools and reliable tranportation I'm impressed. If they can speak inteligently about the trade I will probably give them a shot.
I usually start them out cutting piece work to a stop, go on to simple cut and fit chores [ closet shelving ect.] If they exell at that I give them a room to base out, and if they get that done perfectly in only twice the time it would take for me to do it then they are the new "base man".
I have a system for every operation and so take them through the finish trade starting with base to doors to windows to cabinets to built ins to stairs and rails. I actually would rather train new people than use guys that have picked up a lot of bad technique and bad work habits.
I would advise you to call every trim outfit in your area and explain your desire to work.Offer to start at a reduced rate for a two week trial/training period. Offer to be the new "base man" and I bet you'll get some response
Good Luck!