Appropriate Wood For Exterior Trim?
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I am going to replace some (if not all) of my exterior trim on a 90 year old house. Some of it is rotted and all of it is covered with layers of leaded paint. My impression is that it will be safer and no more expensive to install new material than to strip it.
We are installing white cedar shingles for the siding (2 coats of stain on all sides) and wish to use wood for the trim. The trim will be primed and painted with two coats of a acrylic latex paint. Given that we are painting, I see no need for expensive wood (cedar). Am I correct in assuming that standard pine/fir will work and not cause me problems down the road? Looking for advice on species and grades. Thank you.
David in Iowa
Replies
You may get a lot of suggestions to use synthetics and there are a llot of choices as well a composites to choose from. I have no experience with any of these.
There is a timely article on just this subject in Sept. FHB.
I'm sure it will be of use to you. One of the problems with much of the pine today is that it lack a certain density that makes it resistant to decay. Fir may be costly. Consider the Windsor Prime or something similiar if you are bent on having wood. Be sure to prine all cuts well.
Good Luck,
Eric
Every once in a while, something goes right!
Thanks Eric. I will read that article. Not too crazy about synthetics however.
David
David:
I'm a wood bigot, and I go to great lengths to use wood where most other folks would not. This is especially the case because most of what I do involves replicating an "old- time" look. That said, there are many places that you should consider using synthetics like Koma or Azek. Synthetic trim on a second story gable end, for example, will be undetectable. The key to using synthetics effectively is the wise choice of application. Even on the inside of my house, there are places where even a woodworker would be hard pressed to tell where real wood ends and MDF starts.
Your old trim was probably fir or maybe pine. Vertical grain fir, which is hard to find today, is very long lasting. Today's pine, though, is not the greatest quality and will require far more preparation and upkeep than your original trim. Consider synthetic where it will not be detected.
J Painter
Jpainter -
Thanks for the info. When you do use wood, what do you use? In my area, all I'm finding in 5/4 sizes is cedar. I'm also learning that cut down pine/fir 2x6's (etc.) may not work so well because they are not dried to 10% or better. Is this a concern too?
David
Edited 9/9/2004 5:37 pm ET by davidbear351
I would not use pine or fir. Most spec home builders I've seen use pine and it only takes a few years to rot, peel, and really look bad. The U.S. Forest Products Laboratory, U.S. Department of Agriculture lists pines (other than long-leaf, slash, and eastern white) and true firs among the lowest resistance category, "slightly or non-resistant". Only the heartwood of resistant species has any resistance. They state, "sapwood of substantially all species has low resistance to decay and usually has a short service life under decay-producing conditions."
So, pine and fir (heartwood or sapwood) would be about the worst possible material to use if you want decay resistance.
around here in PacNW the typical choices WOOD be PVC/synthetics, cedar or what is referred to as whitewood - smooth on one side / striated small grooves on the other and usually spruce ( and comes primed )
not sure but whitewood might be 2/3 price of a nice tight knot cedar and synthetics much more
I make a decent business out of replacing rotted pine trim with cedar, or synthetic, if the client wishes to spring for it. I do not recommend pine in exterior applications; I've seen just too much of it fail. If you are set on doing so (due to finances or whatever) you will need to back prime/finish each piece, coating all 6 sides.
A lot depends on where the trim is located. Lower trim (bottoms of cornerboards, water table/skirt boards, fascia behind gutters) are more inclined to rot because they see more moisture. I have pine soffits that look as good as the day that crappy builder put them up (I've been replacing the trim on my own house with cedar piece by piece since about 3 years after the place was built.)
Rot resistance in order amoung the species you mentioned
Cedar
Doug Fir
Pine
Both cedar and fir have special problems with bonding of fist primer coat of pain. Pine paints nice but is harder to keep from rotting - especially the kind you can buy nowadays.
use oil based primer for first sealcoat.
Reason is that oil cures more slowly so it can penetrate and bond better.
There are special primer/sealers made for fir and others for cedar, to prevent resins and tannins from bleedthrough.
Then do your latex, if that is what you want. Window sills shoul always be done with oil, IMO. That is first place you will always see rot.
if using pine, prime and paint all four sides first, if there is anyway you can, and backprime the fresh cut buttjoints or seal with glue ( TitebondII) before nailing in place. butt cuts will wick water into the wood easily and when the cut is stacked on a horizontal surface ( like a casing leg on sill) it will wich wter up and rot faster, so you want to stop that from hapening no matter which wood you use.
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Thanks everyone for the valuable comments. I'm starting to lean towards using cedar and no matter what wood I use I plan to prime and paint/stain it on all sides. In fact, if I go with cedar, I will probably use a Cabot solid stain on all sides. One of the goals is to reduce future maintenance so that's the attraction of stain instead of paint.
It's very interesting to read the comments about rotting pine and fir and contrast that with the 90 year old (I'm assuming) trim on this house. The vast majority of it, including the window sills and water table, is not water damaged at all. I believe it is pine or fir (I know it is not cedar or redwood). I'm assuming this longevity has to do with the quality of pine/fir 90 years ago and because there are a dozen + coats of paint on all the trim. It's a bit of a shame to get rid of such nice, durable wood (actually not going to get rid of the sills - too hard to get out), but the problem is that the coats and coats of paint are mostly lead-based.
David
The rot resistance of the pine on your 90 year old house probably has more to do with the use of lead based paint than with the quality of the pine.
I see a lot of old homes (that have been painted with lead based paint) with the paint almost completely pealed off but do not have any rot. This is because the lead is still protecting the wood.
Real shame that lead has the toxic problems that it has - we have yet to develop a paint that compares with lead based paint.
Maybe you shouldn't worry so much about the lead. It's exterior, so the exposure risks are lower; if you follow decent abatement procedures (among others respirator, proper clean up, no heat gun above 1000 deg, wetting the area, not working on windy days or enclosing the work area ) you won't have much of an exposure issue in prep work; much less if the paint is in relatively decent shape and you don't have to completely strip down to bare wood.
I don't believe that most states require lead paint abatement on exterior surfaces (except possibly windows) unless the soil tests high for lead; the big fear is always chips from window galzing, which of course are delicious.
Bare wood, of course, may be your best bet for getting new paint to last, but with all the other issues raised in this thread, my cheap yankee instinct would be to leave it, prep it properly and save the time and money.
It might last another 90-
we need to face up to the fact that wood is not a good choice outside where it is exposed to water sun and wind and termites which causes splitting popping warping twisting paint rejection etc etc.
the US needs to move toward non wood exteriors- I almost think its unethical to use wood outside a house on new homes.
wood can work IF--- IF you get a good piece to start with if its painted well if no water gets in or behind it or through it like nail holes if its continually painted, if if if
Hardie Plank!!!!!! (I do not sell Hardie plank)
Edited 9/10/2004 4:29 pm ET by wain
"if using pine, prime and paint all four sides first, if there is anyway you can, and backprime the fresh cut buttjoints or seal with glue ( TitebondII) before nailing in place."
The Forest Products Lab recommends using a Paintable, Water Repellant, Protectant.
I has an anti-rot material (protectant) and some wax (repellant), but not so much as to affec the paint.
There book on house finishes show a window treated and not treated before painting. The untreated the paint is pealing where the casing hits the sill.
David,
I'm probably the least knowledgeable responder to this post, but thought I'd give you another option here. The Cabot factory finish (others offer it too) claim to last longer due to strict control of the cedar's moisture content during application, as well as automated application. They claim a 15 year life for the finish. I don't know how accurate that is, but I fell for it. I'd be interested if anyone else has any experience with this.
Good Luck - Jack
Well, I fell for it too!
It will be interesting to see. The Forest Products Lab claims solid-stain finishes last up to 6 years. Of course it depends on exposure to the elements, but we're hoping it lasts more than 6.
sorry DB..ifyour still talking about the needed thickness, AND it's exterior trim...ya want CYPRESS...I can git ya what ever size...ya need...shipping may not be a bad thing considering what your looking for..email, I'll hook ya up.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
AZEK IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO.... CUTS, NAILS, SCREWS, AND PAINTS JUST LIKE
WOOD. YOU CAN EVEN BEND IT OR ROUT IT IF YOU DESIRE !!!! IF YO BUTT JOINT THE CORNERS, GET THE AZEK GLUE AND FOR A GOOD BOND. ANDERSEN'S PERMASHIELD TRIM IS JUNK AND DOES NOT LOOK TO GOOD WHEN APPLIED.