Is there a generally accepted fee that architect’s use? Is it a % of proposed budget, hourly rate? How does it work?
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Replies
No.
Ask around, and ask what services are provided. Wide variations from supplying prints only to full construction management. As you can imagine, there's a range of fees for that range of work. Also, some are fixed price, while others are % of const cost, while some are hourly. I design for fixed price. I personally do not like hourly, be/c it seems like a perfect setup for disputes. At least with an hourly builder, their time on site can theoretically be measured. An archy's working in their office. How do you know the # of hours, except to trust them? But that's just me.
Thanks. This will be the first time we're using an architect so we really have no clue. The first guy we talked to came back with a price of 7% of our projected budget. I don't know if that's high or low. We gave him the budget we'd like to stay within at our initial meeting. I asked if the number was realistic and he said it was tight but doable.
Also, what is a reasonable number of revisions before a final plan is approved? I hope everything is perfect the first time but I doubt that will be the case.
We'd be looking for the architect to design a family room/mud room/laundry room addition on the first floor with a master bed/bath/closets on second floor above. Also want him to attached a currently detached garage, add 1 bay, and design area above garage as workshop/utility space.
No construction management or contractor selection is needed.
In my area, architects will tell you that they cost from 7 to 10% of the project cost if they work by commission. As for revisions; That depends on the municipality. Always expect one. People in "power" need to have their egos stroked. Two is possible if you are doing something tricky or large revisions have been requested in the first go-round.
D&C
I just discussed a commercial project with an architect locally and one from this forum. Each said that 7%, plus or minus some amt, is typical for commercial work be/c of the amount of drawings, the contract management, the extra engineering of such projects, etc.For residential without const mgmt, extensive engineering, etc, that seems.......well, he must be doing something right if he can get people to pay that. Damn, I'm inexpensive!I'm more concerned with "reasonable number of revisions before a final plan is approved? I hope everything is perfect the first time..." Expecting someone else's vision of your house to be perfect the first time is unreasonable, imho. I don't expect it of myself. Design is an iterative process, with clients often discovering what they really, really like and don't like as they go through the process. Just had one who said, "you absolutely drew what we asked for...now we realize that it's not as important as we first thought it was." I don't limit the iterations, be/c I count on my clients being as interested as I am in reaching a solution and not milking the process. That's in the conceptual phase. Once they approve of a design, then they cannot change their minds as the construction drawings are being prepared (without added cost), but during the conceptual phase, I encourage them to experiment a bit. It's the house they'll live in, for heaven's sake. We want to make sure it's something they'll be happy with!
Thanks for the great reply! I especially appreciate your point of view regarding the conceptual stage. Maybe I didn't articulate it well but I do hope that there is room for some back and forth before we agree on a final design.
As far as 7%, I felt that was high too but didn't want to insult a profession I know nothing about. He provided 2 pricing methods - hourly and % of budget. He quoted % of budget. I'm afraid now that if I go to him and say I want to be billed by the hour that there is room to milk the job.
I don't think he's being dishonest. I just want to make sure we're paying a fair price for the work we're hiring an architect to do for us.
I don't want to be caught saying the guy's charging too much, or that one method of billing is better than another. For all I know, he's worth every penny. My point is, know what's gonna happen and how it's gonna happen.For example, I tell clients this: We have a conceptual phase and a drawing phase. Changes are normal in the first phase and will cost extra in the second. When working on concepts, we'll work as long as it takes to get an interior and exterior look that you're happy with. When you approve that, you owe me money. Then I do the prints, and when they're done, you owe me more money. The total money is $X/sf, be/c I've found that my work at least crudely correlates to size. I don't favor $/hr, be/c I don't want my timesheet questioned, and because I suck at keeping timesheets anyway. At least sf is verifiable. I'm also not comfortable with the client owing me more $$$ if they choose a $400 faucet vs a $20 faucet. The other billing arrangements can work for others, but don't fit me.My suggestion, ron, is to get similar answers from whomever you consider for your own architect. Ask the stages of their work, the level of interaction you should expect, the billing schedule, the cost of changing your mind, etc. From the answers, I think you'll find a comfort level with one or another, and that cost won't be the sole criterion.
Ron-
It's hard to say if 7% of the budget is "high" for your project. For example- if your budget is $100k, obviously 7% is $7k, which doesn't sound out of line for developing the design and CD's for the project you described. If the budget is $300k, that 7% becomes $21k, which seems to be a bit much- especially if that $300k is due just to elaborate finishes, or a high general cost due to where you're located.
For residential projects (other than extreme customs stuff), I prefer to see a fixed fee or hourly for preliminary work, and a fixed fee for CD's. The fact that you choose $100/SF granite countertops for the kitchen vs $60/SF granite shouldn't affect the architect's fees- he/she isn't doing anything different to select that $100/SF stone.
Here's something to think about- if you get 90% through the project with $100/SF stone in the kitchen, and later change to $60/SF stone, does the architect cut you a check for the reduction in his fee?
Bob
Ok. I am a young architect that finds this thread very interesting. Much to my surprise, there wasn't too much architect bashing going on. But some side comments that deserve some attention. First of all, a good architect, one that is responsible and has design talent, will put the needs of their clients first. However, there is a limit that needs to be understood; iteration upon iteration and no increase in fee is unfair. Nine times out of ten a cllient comes to me with laundry list of wishes they want in their house, and insist they are all shown and represented into the design. Then, the price comes back from bid and it is 3 times more than they can afford. Is this the architect's fault? Probably not. When you have someone telling you they want a wine cellar and you ask them 'for how many bottles' and they respond with something along the line of 'oh. i don't have any wine now.' They probably are getting in over their heads. So, why should I give away my time when they will not listen to reason in the design stage?
I think the hardest thing to bill for is the time and skill that goes into producing a thorough set of drawings. Most people look at the final product as the physical set of drawings and have no clue what is represented in them. IT IS A PROCESS. It is not 6 sheets of paper.
And don't even get me started on the clients that can't even appreciate a good job done....those are the worst.
>So, why should I give away my time when they will not listen to reason in the design stage?I must be lucky to have only reasonable clients. <G>I put a fair amount of attention toward avoiding "iteration after iteration." We're always working to narrow the list of outstanding issues and push toward conclusion. It's something I do from the moment I start qualifying them as a client. I consider it part of my job to create the design that meets their needs, and if we're going through interminable iterations, then either I'm not designing according to their needs, or I'm doing a bad job of assessing those needs. Thus far I've not had a client take advantage of this...we're both interested in seeing the house built and not squandering time in the design process. If one ever did, I'd have ways to help them be decisive. Maybe I've just been lucky.
That 7% sounds reasonable given the numbers I heard when I was recently scoping a potential addition similar to what you describe. I'm in Northern VA, and two of the "better" (info obtained through references) architect groups I talked to quoted 12-18% for full service, and a minimum of a $250K budget to even consider the project. Not surprisingly, the wife and I agreed our house was just right as it is...we just can't buy anymore stuff:)
Also, what is a reasonable number of revisions before a final plan is approved? I hope everything is perfect the first time but I doubt that will be the case.
Depends upon who you ask <g>.
In the archy's world, the acceptable number of client revisions is zero. Archy's who actually work that way annoy me. Residential design tends to be an evolving experience. There's no predicting where the interaction will go--so, absolute statements of no permissible changes are patently absurd.
But, that loops us back to "reasonable-ness." What is a "reasonable" change? Who pays for it? It's just like a change order--it is very easy to get sideways in the details. How to cope with that? Ask the archy how revisions & COs are handled and have been handled. Ask for references, previous customers can tell you what they went through.
For me, each project is different, so the rates, and the rate method, are often different. I almost never charge by the square foot--it never reflects on my true time in either design or drafting. Now, if the customer wants the bill quoted as per sf, that's just formatting a line on the invoice. it's just not how I'm charging. Mostly.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The work you have described is well within the range of a general contractor, he could help you with the design and construction. Ask around, most contractors have lines on architectural technicians or draftsmen with design experience. Hire a general and include design as part of the price. Unless you have a chateau and it is really complicated work and you have lots of moolla I wouldn't hire an architect in this case. It is like bringing a $120.00 backhoe on a project when a $50.00 per hour bobcat was all you needed. The price you pay for architectural services could be spent elsewhere on the project, say that big jacuzzi tub you always wanted or better windows or whatever.
David - thanks for the advice. We are using a GC we always work with for this job. I had him take a look at it last night and said the same thing you did!
What we may do now is pay an architect to provide prints for permit approval but I and the GC will "design" the addition.
Most design professionals I know expect from one to three minor changes during the process and those who quote a percentage or a fixed sq ft design fee will include one or two revisions.Seen percent sounds pretty good for an experienced pro producing all needed drawings and specs. I have heard anywhere from 6% to 9% for fees before construction management kicks in.I have also been expected to build things based on a conceptual layout with no actual plans. I'm capable as are many builders but that can get pretty hairy.from my viewpoint, one thing that is important that you will want is a firm committment on scedule. It is not uncommon for me to have things built before the archy has the working drawings done, one reason that I started doing the design work myself. (Other reasons for that was the multitude of errors on drawings provided and that I can do 3D renderings on the CAD so the customer saves money ion change orders due to the fact they cannot visualize from floor plan drawings or elevations what they are paying for.
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Both out there. Your best bet is to find someone working out of their house. I have this lady who is a stay-at-home; Drafts by hand so it takes longer; but she only charges $1.35/SF! Not only is that great for my area, I can trust her when she pushes some of the pricier items for long range energy savings or salability.
D&C
I worked for an architect for almost a decade, and architect's that bill per percentage of project costs are lining their pockets. the more of your money they spend, the more they make. i think industry standard is 8 to 12%. we used to bill hourly for preliminary design, a stipulated sum for CD's, and hourly again for construction administration. the hourly phases were bid giving the client and idea of what we expected the costs to be. when we cruched the numbers after the project was done, we never were over 2% of the project cost - so these guys charging 12% are making good money!!
Make sure to check out references (contractors and clients) and ask to see some of their projects.
good luck
percentage of project costs are lining their pockets
Funny, I've heard that said of contractors, too <g>
An architecture office, as a business, has a very high overhead. You need a physically large space for drafting tables (but more for plan & file storage). There's gazillions of product samples to store, and catalogs to stockpile. Then, there's the costs for all the things that must be paid for--the Sweet's catalogs, the AIA & state membership dues, state licensing fees, insurance and the like. That overhead is there every day, whether there's a paying job that day or not. That makes for some billing pressure.
In other words, about the same sorts of concerns a middle-sized GC has, and for the same reasons. A ten-hand GC doesn't need as much office space, but that's offset by job trailers & the like. It's complicated.
Are there archy offices that pad out accounts? Without making any assertions of fact, probably. Probably about the same percentage as GCs who pad out, too. Near as I can tell, the secret there is to be both dumb and lucky. <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I would estimate 75% of the residential firms around these parts are one or two-man shows. I work by myself, and because residential plans don’t require a stamp, I only carry general liability/risk insurance for the office.
In my home office, I have a “D” plotter and use Acad LT. I charge $5500 for drafting and plotting a “permit” set or up to 10 sheets/8 sets, $125/hr. for design time, and $80/hr for construction administration. Most commissions average $7500. I won’t take the commission unless the client is on board with the five-phase process outlined by the AIA. I have had clients that have been unable to visualize three dimensions, and the commissions go up rapidly due to rendered perspectives and myriad changes, but my contract for services is very clear about the costs for schematic and design development phases.
My contract for services has been honed over 10 years, and includes a preamble that describes the process and the roles of the participants in a team endeavor. I mail prospective clients an outline with 50 specific questions regarding issues like how they’ll use the space, what architectural and decorating styles they like, etc. I always ask the client to mail me photos of houses they like, magazine cut-outs, the contract, a certified plot plan and the completed questionnaire back before the first meeting; that way I’ve got an acid test for the client, and something to base the three schemes I always show up with at the first meeting. If the client blows off any part of it after being reminded a couple times, I don’t respond.
My residential work is split 70/30% between custom builders and homeowners, but I only spend 10% of my time on pure architectural work for others—I much prefer to design and build my own. There’s much less stress in that.
>I work by myself, and because residential plans don’t require a stamp, I only carry general liability/risk insurance for the office.Can you expand on this a bit? What coverage don't you carry that you would if the plans required a stamp? What are you covered for? What aren't you covered for?Thanks.
Hi,
It sounds like a question that might receive a simple answer, but it’s complicated. I admit the statement I made, and that you quoted, was a bit of a red herring.
The way it’s been explained to me, once I use my stamp, I’m acting as a licensed professional; I can be sued by a client for “professional liability”, which includes among other things: “errors and omissions”, and “employment practices liability”.
If I’m not acting as a licensed professional, “errors and omissions” claims against non-professionals are not well supported by case law, and if I work alone, I don’t need “employment practices liability”.
Once again, that’s what I’ve been told.
If I accepted a commission for a biotech laboratory on my own, I’d have O&E, O&D, EPLI and even personal liability because the plans would need to be stamped, the client’s investors would require it, I’d have to hire at least two other architects and an intern. Nevermind that the people who I’d be working for would have a lot to lose if I made a mistake and would be likely to sue me for a lot of money.
The General liability policy I maintain covers me for the “when the sh!t hits the fan, everybody gets some on them” effect, people coming to my office and slipping on the icy walk, etc. I’m not covered for errors and omissions for one reason--though I’ve been told by some there is a chance the courts would frown upon my claim of “non-professional”, and others that a clear distinction is made--it’s prohibitively expensive.
In the event I totally screwed-up via errors and omissions in residential work, I would simply offer to pay for the remedy. Residential scope is so much more narrow than complex or even simple commercial, custom and precedent falls on the side of “lesser cost”; if, for example I forgot to include tempered glass for the bathroom tub window, I would just pay for the re-glazing rather than allow myself to become embroiled in a lawsuit.
>Once again, that’s what I’ve been told.Thanks for the explanation! Does anyone else have an opinion on this? I'd love to hear additional thoughts?I'll have to ask my atty. I'm guessing he's gonna say, anyone can sue you for anything. And after my dubious experience with insurance, I expect that they'd find an out for any claim, no matter what the policy presumably covered. I hope to mitigate risk by having a licensed engineer review every plan set.
No, and it depends on what services the architect will perform after the drawings are done, like Requests for Information, Equipment Submittals, Change Orders, Construction Supervisions etc.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Ron,
The architects and designers in the SF East Bay I talked to charge from $75 to $85 an hour (except one who wanted $120 and was incapable of listening to any thoughts we had). I also got some flat fee numbers for basic design.
I was looking at both builder/designers (my preference since that's what I used to do) and architects. Turned out my needs were beyond the builders I spoke with (hey if it was easy I would have done it myself!).
Anyway, for me it is the same as with the GC - it is all about trust and the communication you develop. and, of course checking references extensively!
Our architect charges by the hour and also says that in her experience the design fees on remodels end up ranging from 8% to 12 % of the final project cost, as a budgeting guideline.
Wayne