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I normally do not work with or need an Architect for the work I do for clients, however, I am getting into a major renovation that will require several structural changes and the clients would like a specific look to the new space as well as certain features added/changed. I have met with one Architect who looked over the place, took some basic measurements, talked with the client and then bid us good day and he would submit a cost analysis for his work.
Several days later the lad presented his costs and it was about $21000. Things that made me go huh? was the fact that his drawings would Not include mechanicals and detailed interior elevations. The drawings would be sufficient for “me” to GC the project but not detailed enough for tenders? (how do you get a reliable bid from subs with no scope to the project). It would be my conclusion that the Architect sees the client as being wealthy (they are) and cost would be A-ok because of the prestige his firm holds.
What should reasonable Architecture fees be and how should they be based ie. set fee, percentage of final cost, square footage etc. thanks for the help.
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Brent,
You mean $21k and not $2,100. right! WOW! How major is this renovation that the design and drawings will be that much?!
Seems extremely high to me for what you describe you are geeting but without knowing the whole job its hard to say.
What I can say is I've had P.E. design jobs for me from additions and renovations to a 3,000 sq. ft home and they've only been a max of $2,800.00
It probably comparing apples to oranges but I would think the arc. fees are based on the job complexity and not just how wealthy the clients and how presitigious the firm. Now I know this stuff happens but I personally would be reluctant to enter in on a job like this as it would seem the arc. is working on his firm's name and just looking to make big bucks and leave you holding the responsibility for the details (mechanicals, cabinetry details, etc.)
And I'll put my foot in my mouth and say this but you know the arc. always wins in any dispute between them, the client and the GC when something on the job goes arwy and the finger pointing begins.
Sorry to offend any arcs. out there but this is my personal experience. That 5 year piece of paper earned in school holds a lot more clout than 30 years swinging a hammer no matter what!
Mike
*mike... 10% - 12% for full service fees on new construction is not unusual... and for renovations.. it should be a higher %...brent.... go along to get along.. tell the owner, you really like the creative talents of said architect but you want him to coordinate the hvac/utility portion also... they 'll do it and tack on their fee.....or not
*For some further information: the job is going to be alot of demo and upgrading electrical plumbing and the HVAC. The "reno" part will be about a 400 to 600 sq ft addition and changing a really tired interior/exterior into something more spectacular plus designing and installing a new second kitchen. I have been working on this clients place for the past three months and have gutted old and installed a new swanky "summer" kitchen that I built and designed. The clients like my work so they feel no problem with me doing the reno. They will probably spend 200+K on this job over the next year.I can see a fee of 5K for the work the Architect will do but 21 K just floored me. He even wrote in that extra charges would apply for engineering or other assistance that would be necessary. I don't think we will use this guy at all. I also don't like the idea of percentage charges where I have to go and cost the project and the Architect gets say 10%. Materials are costly enough without a great profit margine to give a guy 10% of the cost per 2X4 etc.
*brent... you and i may be good at what we do.. but if this architectural firm is good at what they do.. then the design will be worth it..... bad contractors are legion, good contractors are a dime a dozen.. great ones are few and far between... the same bell curve exists for lawyers, engineers , and architects... or any other profession....the thing about this architect is that they are either too low, too high, or just right ... b but hey, whadda i no ?
*brent you say the fee for incomplete drawings on a 200k project are to be 21k? that seems a bit high. now if it were a complete package from a top notch firm maybe it would be ok.since you already designed part of the job and they liked it why not hire a pe to do the paperwork from your design sketches? that would give you what you need at a much lower cost.
*"the same bell curve exists for lawyers, engineers , and architects... or any other profession"I always wonder about this when I see a doctor. Did he get a 4.0 in med school? Did he skip class the day they covered whatever ails me?
*I am probably leaning toward Fred's suggestion of doing up a set of drawings and then have a firm complete the engineering and finished drawings. I would already be designing the kitchen part anyway and the mechanicals will probably end up being an ongoing change throughout the process as it is difficult to say to what extent they require up-grading, moving/re-moving until I open the walls.As for the the quality of the Architect's firm it's hard to say. The guy seemed to get a bit shady and dodged some questions I had about having the drawings stamped by a P.Eng for the structural part and he seemed a bit to artsy fartsy, kinda had that way out there Einstien look to him.
*It's time to cut and run from this guy and his firm. If he won't or can't get a stamp from his own company or through the regular PE his firm uses there is something amiss. Like maybe he's a draftsman/CADman, architect wannabe and the real boys are not in his sideline loop.
*An architects services are something that should be negotiated like other person involved in the buildind process. However the client never seems to carefully prepare an agreement of services from the architect. Beware of architects that want to design time and material. Ask the architect if he is responsible for any redesign if the project comes in way over budget at bid day. AN architects fee is normally around 8 to 15 %.Will they be the adminisrator of the contract ? will they prvide any services during constuction?
*To what extent does the 8 to 15% apply? If the final cost is lets say 100K for a bathroom because the client or clients designer chose expensive fittings and imported tile I can't see paying 8K to 15K when the same space done with less expensive fixtures would cost 50K and the Architect would recieve 4 to 7.5K for the same job?The quote stated that additonal charges of $105/hr would apply to administer and site visits are $95/hr plus mileage etcHis quote seems excessive and perhaps he just doesn't want the job. The clients are not the type to care who designed the place as long as it is built correctly and has the appearence they desire. I'm going to keep shopping.....
*brent... that's not what i got from reading your post.. i was under the impression that the client selected the architect... if that 's true... perhaps they see something in his / her work that they like and only he can deliver..... aren't you fighting city hall here? if they like the designs this guy does.. why can't you accept that?now , if YOU selected the architect... WHY ? did you just pick his name out of a hat ?if they want less expensive design they can get it.. is that what they want ?b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Mike, the Architect is just one that had done some work for the clients friends and they were getting a quote from him. My post was to find out what normal or average fees an Architect would charge and how they were based. The clients just met with this one guy from a reference-mostly due to the fact that the friend had a 400K reno done and the fee was 5 to 6K (alot more reasonable) and thier reno involved alot more detail. He has since done some more elaborite and celebrity type work so my guess is his head is as big as his pockets and his fee's are just a gouge.The clients plan on meeting more designers and Architects I was just searching for some figures to give them as a comparison
*ok.. Brent... 8 - 15 is normal... but that's for new const. and it depends on how much the architect is involved in bid review, progrewss inspections, etc.. it's all spelled out in the AIA documents.. for reno work the fee usually goes up because a lot of them can't make enough to cover their overhead..(architects have overhead too.)a lot of times it is very difficult to find architects that will do reno work...all the more for us lowly designers...but.. my only point is .. great design is worth every cent.. best job i ever did was when the architect and our company and the owner were all on the same team..from start to finish....
*i "If he won't or can't get a stamp from his own company or through the regular PE his firm uses there is something amiss"Amen !!
*Mike - Your astute points and reasonable comments are pretty much in line with reality. I see a lot of complaining about architects' fees here - do you suppose somewhere there is a website of architects complaining about builders or developers making huge profits? Note: Whatever the fee arrangement, it can always be expressed as a percentage of the construction cost, whether or not that is the method of billing. I generally don't like the percentage method because there is no incentive to hold down costs, the more the project costs the more you make as a professional - a kind of conflict of interest. Your first invoice is usually based on an assumed CCE which could be totally out-of-whack, or possibly prepared by you, and may include a percentage complete that is impossible for the Owner to judge. Keep in mind that very small projects ($50K - $200K) still may require a lot of work and so a higher percentage is fairly typical. i best job i ever did was when the architect and our company and the owner were all on the same team..from start to finish.... Amen to that!JeffPS - Renovation work is our bread and butter - it frequently requires more skill and sensitivity (and therefore cost as you point out) than new construction.
*i An architects services are something that should be negotiated like other person involved in the building process. Agreed!i However the client never seems to carefully prepare an agreement of services from the architect. The architect should write a proposal that leads to an AIA Owner-Architect Agreement. We attach that proposal to the agreement.i Beware of architects that want to design time and material. I've never heard that expression with respect to our profession. What's wrong with an hourly rate to a fixed fee based on a fixed scope of work, or an hourly rate to an 'upset limit' subject to adjustment based on a variable scope of work?i Ask the architect if he is responsible for any redesign if the project comes in way over budget at bid day. That is required in the latest AIA Owner-Architect Agreement, unless amended, subject to several options on the Owner's part.i An architects fee is normally around 8 to 15 %.Will they be the administrator of the contract ? Will they prvide any services during constuction? Yes, and yes, according to the aforementioned documents.JeffPS - A range of 8%-15% does not represent "what they think they can get away with" as some might infer. It refers to the size of the project and it's complexity.
*Brent - I've never been in that situation, but had a thought. Would it be better for the homeowner to make that decision ? Did they pick this guy ? Do they really want this firm as a "feather in their cap" ? If so, they might resent what they percieve as your interference. I guess I'd be concerned that you might be stepping on their toes when you've already established a working relationship with them.Have you and/or the homeowners check with other clients of this guy ?Also - Have you talked to the architect about what the scope of his work will be ? Could be he plans to spend a lot of time on detail, which raised his estimate. Or, he could be a jerk. Guess you just have to use your BS detector on that one.
*Brent: on a tangent, whatever happened with the trade licensing thing?
*Hey Adrian,The Trade Certification guy said I would be required to work as an apprentice under a plumber or electrician for a three to four month period and then, based on the recomendation of the trades person, be allowed to write for license, or apprentice for a reduced period of time.Although that would be great, time has a way of doing things and I was awarded a promotion at work (five levels of $) and my holidays doubled per year. All in all not a bad deal. So for now I'm just doing more of the GC thing in my off time and building cabinets etc.How did you make out with the cabinet job that was to be installed in the log home?As for the Architect the clients have had other conversations with other Designers etc and his price is pretty way out there as far as they were concerned. They should be able to get someone on line for 5 to 7K and they are happier with that.
*I have to say I agree with Mike. I have quite a bit of architectural experience. I just had a client back out on paying $1500 for a complete set of construction drawings for a full house. I have a total of 23 years in construction and 15 in custom homes. I have also been through two colleges Architectural Engineering courses. I was a little surprised! I am a custom home builder and firmly believe that all Architects and Engineers should have to do a four year (in the field) apprenticeship to do their jobs. I can't become an architect without working for one for several years. My wife and her frinds thought all construction workers were brawn and no brain. After being around it for 8 years she don't think so.