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I’m a remodeling contractor in the Phila Pa. area. I have a repeat client who has purchased a new property to renovate. The client selected a green architect who I incidentally have just finished a project with. The project was loaded with design errors.I was disappointed to have to suffer with more incompetence , but agreed to try as per my clients wishes. The architect started working on the drawings in sept. He has now spent 13,000 of the clients money. The phase of the project is only budgeted at 122,000.The problem is the drawings lack detail enough to obtain a permit.They also do not show ridge height ceiling height window sizes or any sections. Any input is welcome. My client also was not savvy enough to have any agreement other than hourly design with no cap.
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*I would put your questions about lack of details, etc., politely in writing to the architect, with a copy to the client. Include every last little detail and when the client speaks to you about the letter you can tell him, in confidence, of your concerns about the architect.
*I've got to agree with Ian, but I would be really careful about the conversation with the client. The client already has $13,000 invested in this guy and a vote of no confidence from the builder at this point could really be damaging in many ways.
*Hi AJC utrufello,If at first you don't suceed..You're willing to try .. go for it, not haltingly.Is there a chief architect checking his work and signing off on it? Some one has to check his work.You better get pro active there "fello" and get it goin' on between ya. Make your position known.Otherwise it will cost you. It would be ill advised to go forward with the proposed project's plan...There's an architect on this site that would help you. He's smart and polite, and his names Jeff Clarke. And its near his neck o' the woods...good luck, hny2002Dan-O
*What do you mean by green? I assume you mean no experience. This could be an opportunity for you to help a young or inexperience person. Why don't you just explain to him in a ploite and friendly manner that the permitting powers need more detail. It is part of the learning curve we all go through in dealing with permits and inspection. As far as his design errors, I always found it easier to ask "dumb" guestion when things don't work, or there is a conflict. If he/she is sharp enough, they will soon learn that you are leading them to solve thier own problems. It has worked for me on a few occassions. Other time I found out that I was the one that really was dumb.Try not to write the guy off. Help him out as best you can, and you may become one of his contractors of choice on future projects.He may well be incompetent, but let him prove it to the client, not you. Keep good records and write down every question and the answer he provides. Also keep track of the amount of time he spends correcting the problems, and your time in making corrections. Eventually the client is going pay one or both of you for the problems. Good record keeping could mean that it is you that get paid, not the guy that screwed the pooch.Dave
*good post Dave R.,Dan-O
*You need an agreement with the client ahead of time that downtime to solve design problems is on his nickel and the charge rate should be approved, too. Then YOU MUST DOCUMENT IT! Take lots of notes and communicate with the client as often as he will tolerate about the mounting costs. Even the time you spend on the phone explaining why you are on the phone instead of driving nails is a cost to you and should be paid for. That greenhorn architect is not your apprentice. It's not up to you to support him or her with a contribution from your botom line.I'm doing a reno now from sketches provided by an incompetent architect. It's hell, especially since we neglected to record everything in the early stages.We were unable to anticipate the amount of time lost because of careless and thoughtless design work. Please let us know how it goes.Ron
*I'd ask him to correct and re-submit. I'd tell the client what's going on. I'd also warn the client to watch out for any charges the architect may try to submit for correcting his errors.The architect should be fixing any screw-ups that he made on his own dime. You do, don't you?I'd tell the client the problem. If you don't, you just compound the problem by covering it up.Ed.
*I like Dave R's approach. Write out a list of questions to the architect. Doesn't have to be confrontational, just a request for information. These should be questions that will help you make an accurate cost estimate for both time and materials. A copy to the client might imply to them the designer has left off a lot of info. As for the amount of detail for a building permit, most jurisdictions have a "check-list" they hand out explaining specifically what they want of the drawings they review.
*The key thing here is that the architect has a contract to provide a service to the client at an hourly rate. He going to feel justified charging for whatever time he spends on the project, and rightfully so, for that is the deal he has struck. It is between the architect and the client to decide whether the client is getting enough for their money. You cannot protect the clients from themselves.It is between you and the client to decide what is a fair price for you to charge for the implementation of whatever service the architect eventually provides. Work with what is in your control. You have the power to accept or reject the drawings as workable. Keep kicking the drawings back until you feel you have enough to go on for the build. If the client wants you to work directly with the architect until you get drawings you can actually use, spell it out in writing that you are doing so at their behest, and that you will bill for your time to do so, and that you have nothing to do with paying the architect. If you get something you feel you can finally work from, then price accordingly. If you feel you simply cannot build/bid accurately from what is provided and you still want the project, maybe a t&m contract for your services would also be in order, if you feel you can work profitably that way. Steve
*$13,000 and no window sizes or sections? Exactly what does he have on paper? What is he charging an hour?
*What is a $122K project that takes $13 worth of drawings? Sounds like a small addition? Getting smaller as the architect eats the budget? Joe H
*I agree with a lot of the above, especially Ron Budgell. You should not be babysitting a green architect, and if the client is shelling out righteous bucks for this guy's services, and it's costing you too, you need to get paid, and make the client aware of the reasons.
*if i were in your shoes.. which i'm not.. i'd be having some heart-to-hearts with the architect and the client... and if nothing changed i'd walk...
*I had a similar problem with an architect I hired for my cottage. I started out like Dave R. suggested, when he explained a 1 1/2' elevation error and a microlam header going through the middle of a doorway on the drawings as a field measurement, I canned him. Hopefully your client is smart enough to do the same. Fortunately for me he did the drawings on computer and I had copies of all the files so I finished the job myself.
*Dan-O - thank you so much for the compliment, it's about the nicest thing anyone has every said to me, at least here.AJC - While most of the posts are "right on" in terms of i reaction,you don't necessarily always want your i actionsto follow you 'gut' reaction. Discretion is sometimes the better part of valor, but you have to protect your client's interests as well.Although the title of your post focuses on 'Fees' the 'Fees' are irrelevant here and hard to judge. It is the i clientthat spent the money, not the Architect. How difficult is the Owner? Is this design version #1,382? Etc. The issue is whether or not the documentation will be adequate.The best way to end up with mutual respect all around, unless the situation is 'hopeless' (meaning, you cannot proceed) is to remember that there are two relationships, and hopefully two contracts, present: Owner-Architect and Owner-Contractor. There is no Contractor-Architect agreement, just an inferred relationship. There is also a Reasonable Standard of Care involved, which is between Owner and Architect - that is the standard by which the Architect will be judged in any action, not the Owner's standard nor yours. Since I am less than 50 miles away, I'm pretty sure that Standard is very high in Philadelphia.Since you are a designated contractor (negotiated-sum, on-board before construction documents are completed) what role does your contract call for in review of documents? Did the Owner ask for input or just forward documents for your information. If I were in your shoes and were asked for review, I would ask for an Owner-Contractor-Architect meeting to state my concerns. Face-to-face, with reasonable respect (yeah, I know it's hard to do). You were green once, too, a long time ago, right? The best relationships in the industry are built between design and construction professionals face-to-face whereas letter-writing usually heads down a long dark road.That being said, if you do not want to make an attempt at a cooperative meeting or if the design professional is unresponsive, your proper course of action is to notify the Owner that, in your judgement there are serious defects in the documents. Do it in writing and cite examples. These may be very basic - for instance the local construction code jurisdiction may require sections for a permit, there aren't any, therefore you have a point. Under the AIA Owener-Architect agreement (for which BTW I do not have the legal background to interpret) the Owner is required to notify the Architect of any errors or omissions as soon as possible. So you are proper in your actions and the Owner in his - otherwise the Owner might be in breach of contract if you notify him and he does not act.All that being said, as appropriate to the context of your description, if this were a valued Contractor-Architect relationship (yes, Virginia, they do exist) I would be very responsive to a call from you to note 'discrepancies' or 'missing information' which I would then provide in revisions (at my cost if my fault).Then again, I'm not green (except when favoring recycled materials and on St. Patrick's Day).Jeff
*i He may well be incompetent, but let him prove it to the client, not you.Very well put, Dave.Jeff
*Architect Fees:Generally they are a percentage of the construction costs, based on the final approved construction documents.It is obvious that the design documents must be converted into construction documents with details so that: (a) The building inspector can approve the design; and (b) The contractor can build it, often called "constructability".I would fire the architect or ask for an adjustment at this point, either on his rate, or convert it to a set percentage.
*I'm in the 'try to make it work with him before you get political'camp. But watch your behind. It's a small world, and I'd hate to think of years of sour relations ahead of me because I didn't make the effort. Rookie architects have been responsible for most of the big screwups I've seen, bar none.There is another 'architects fees' thread in the Business folder, BTW.
*My advice: Runsometimes architecks add cost but not value, many like the complicated approach to anything.
*well you are the guy doing the work- not the one paying for it.still - do you need this job?this architect can learn on someone elses time.if you are the guy then make certain you are compensated.if you are to be the teacher so be it- everybody learned somewherecept for noah- and he had mike smith and gabe to run the show...
*Outstanding post Jeff. I worked for an architect that started his own construction company many years ago. I just learned more from your post than I did in two years working for him.
*> There is no Contractor-Architect agreement, just an inferred relationshipI don't buy that at all. Seems to me the contractor, subs and suppliers are often the ones who must communicate with the architect and then explain things to the homeowner. There i mustbe a relationship between the contractor and architect for that reason. I've often been involved in cases where the homeowner didn't really understand what the architect had drawn, and had to explain it to them. I don't entirely blame the architects for this - I know the homeowners often say they understand something when they really don't. Seems to me that the contractor (and sometimes the subs and suppliers) become an "arbitrator" or "translator" between the architect and homeowner. So I think it's wrong to say that it's just an "inferred" relationship.
*AJ,You're looking for informal resolution of an incipient problem. If your original post had been a tad less opinionated, perhaps this thread itself might have been an informal "arbitration board" that could have been shared with client and architect. Honest opinions of all kinds came in; most were biased toward protecting the builder's interest, as is appropriate. Lurkers to this thread--clients, architects and builders--should have all benefitted from the collective wisdom. I did.
*i There must be a relationship between the contractor and architect for that reason.Oh, ITA, Boss. I just mean that tbere is no direct form of agreement (legal contract, involving offer, acceptance, meeting of the minds and payment). The point is that, with the exception of some references in each separate agreement (Owner-Contractor and Owner-Architect) the relationship is left up to the contractor and architect. While there are some good reasons not to have a formal agreement (unless you are design-build) the lack of a i formal and legal basis for that relationship is no excuse not to have a relationship and is an i opportunity that is all-too frequently missed in the industry.Jeff
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I'm a remodeling contractor in the Phila Pa. area. I have a repeat client who has purchased a new property to renovate. The client selected a green architect who I incidentally have just finished a project with. The project was loaded with design errors.I was disappointed to have to suffer with more incompetence , but agreed to try as per my clients wishes. The architect started working on the drawings in sept. He has now spent 13,000 of the clients money. The phase of the project is only budgeted at 122,000.The problem is the drawings lack detail enough to obtain a permit.They also do not show ridge height ceiling height window sizes or any sections. Any input is welcome. My client also was not savvy enough to have any agreement other than hourly design with no cap.