Architecturally intergrated Cad Packages
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Hi to everybody! I have been following this forum via what’s been printed in the magazine and I must say the responders have all been impressive with their advice.
I am new to breaktime so I’m unsure about navigating through the various topics; so I hope I’m not being redundant with my question. ( Honestly, I’m looking for the most current responses.)
My question pertains to architecturally integrated cad packages and what I would like is to hear is some cogent arguments for and against the various packages that are available. I will add that I am still using a dos based 2d cad package with a digitizer; the whole setup has and still serves me well. So please bear in mind that you are dealing with a brontosaurus. I have narrowed my personal search to 2 choices. However, to keep an open mind I will not name them at this time.
I thank everyone upfront for their time and I anxiously await your comments.
Replies
What is the 2d program you have experience with?
from your nom de plume, it sounds like you want aserious CAD package..
here they are:
ACAD
Acad Lt
Vectorworks
Softplan
Chief Architect...
there are others , too... but they don't have thh following that those do
we use Chief, and have since '97 ( vs. 5) , currently we use vs. 8.06 , but we have 9.0 loaded for 3 work stations
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
architecturally integrated cad packages What do you want the program to do? or be capable of doing? or whatever the correct grammer is.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I think the phrase Kelly used describes that.
pure CAD packages just have line drawing tools whereas Architecturally oriented ones work with objects such asdoors, windows, walls, roofs etc. saving the operator time in creating those items for 3D or for estimating. Still, a more detailed answer from Kelly on what specific uses are intended might bring more specific answers to the Q.
Kelly, I venture to guess that if your budget is lower, your two choices are AClite or Vectorworks. If you are looking for the best with less concern for cost, you are looking at Softplan and either ArchiCAd or Chief Architect.
Chief is reputed to be easier to learn but Softplan is both fairly easy and very powerful. I am an SP user. The newest version 12 adds so much power that it may be getting harder to learn all of its modules, but users report that it is a time saver for residentioal design. I hear more stories of Chief users converting to SP and have never heard one that I remember of anSP user converting to Chief. I have heard of a couple SP users who quit SP but seemed to be those who were not adapted to using any CAD instead of pencils and paper.
The time you invest learning the program has a value. Invest that time wisely. If you do a lot of design work, with a lot of high end customization, SP is ideal. If you are more of an occasional user on more standard jobs, then the shorter learning curve of Chief and its more limited capabilities may be right for you.
You could searach this forum with the advanced search feature for past discussions of CAD or of design software for other comments
.
Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.cad.com.au/cad/selector.html#industry has an interesting take on some products. They don't hold SP in quite the same esteem as you do, but CAD is kinda like asking which truck is the best, huh? Since (s)he's coming from DOS, I won't bother talking about superior Mac solutions. :)
Edit: btw, does SP have scripting? I know they aren't Mac. I just used VW's scripting to automate some really intricate objects, including the triple-interconnected dome designs I do....what a timesaver that'll be! From experience with all sorts of software, with most of the experience in creating it, I've found that the software development environments are the most complicated products out there, but CAD's a close second. Put the two of them together, and you get something that'll really get you pulling your hair out!
Edited 8/19/2003 10:19:19 AM ET by Cloud Hidden
Scripting? ?????????I can only take an educated guess at what that would be - connected or similar to LISP routines or Macros?
No- I don't guess SP has that. The idea is to let them do the programing and let you have the tools to do the designing. For something like your domes, it would probably be inadequate. I could create a rendering for 3D conceptual but thge dome shape would then be the roof and it wouldn't recognize it for say, a command to "Fit walls to roof". .
Excellence is its own reward!
VW allows scripts to be created in Pascal or C or C++ which then become an extension of the program. Good for things that would never make a good generic feature. A 3-part dome is a great example. Maybe a handful of people in the world would have a use for such a thing, so it'd never make a feature list. But a couple hours of programming will save me hours and hours over the next few years.
The "fit walls to roof" is my current biggest pita. Nobody does that well with non-planar roofs. I have to modify each wall vertex by vertex for a 3-D model. Bleeeech. Hmmmm, maybe I'll have to script my way around it! Gosh, that'd be a barrel of fun...
Geez! What a neophyte am I - when it comes to navigating around this forum. I've been lost for days trying to get back to my posed question. I hope you will kindly bear with me.
I see that I was too vague with my inquiry. But Piffin scored a direct hit by precisely describing what I was talking about. I am looking a cad program with parametric objects that are editable as well as countable.
The dos program that I'm currently using is called Fastcad and it is strictly a 2d line drawing tool. The reason for my longevity with the software is the obvious familiarly with the program. I don't have to think about drawing just designing. But Cloud Hidden brought up the real reason for my staying with the program i.e. the ability to rewrite menus, and write scripts, macros, and xp modules. I've honed the program to fit my most of my needs. Alas, the program has been unsupported since 95 and I don't care for the windows version hence, I'm on borrowed time.
I alluded that I had done some research, but I was interested to see if anyone really felt strongly about any particular software. Actually, I narrowed my short list to 3 programs:
ArchiCad, Soft Plan, & Chief Architect
ArchiCad seem to have the most power and capability. It certainly had the highest recommended equipment request with at least a p4-2g with 1gig of ram. To me it seemed more directed for the commercial design market and after all I'm just a lowly house drawer.
Chief Architect by far looks to have the easiest learning curve and some very promising ways to edit and draw. However, it lacks the ability to throw a grid on screen and I'm not sure if it allows user definable snap. I'm a little worried about the power of Chief to handle the more complex drawings and the fact that I couldn't get it to dimension to the plate of a wall.
My story is starting to sound like the 3 little pigs, with Soft Plan being just right! Maybe it is I don't know, because they will not send a working demo to try. It seems to me that may be cumbersome to get to a roof. When I look at the sales brochure SP shows a brick arch with soldiered brick, Chief just shows an extrusion of the brick surface. It was this observation that piqued my interest in soft plan; also the sales people tell me that program has a grid ( which I guess is important to me ).
One of the things that I can currently do is keyboard in wall lengths - to me a time saver. What are the qualities of your software that you like and in particular those that expedite the completion of a drawing.
you can keyboard edit any wall..
and you can dimension to any surface , including plate lines.
if you want to know more about the inside scoop on chief , there is a very active user group... log in and ask away..
their site is listed on the ART Chief Home pageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
kd
Did you come across any Cadsoft products in your search?
They are AUTOCAD based and produce working drawings from a 3d model with a parametrically linked database of objects. Wall lengths can be punched in. Roofs can also be drawn in 3d.It has a grid and possibly an editable snap ... it is Autocad.
We use it for some design build stuff and AC experience may help.
Have you ever heard of it?
Has anyone ever heard of it!!
CHEERS NG
You might take a look at Arch T and see what you think. The program has been around for a number of years as an add on for AutoCAD and IntelliCAD. My only experience with it is as a demo ........... it looks quite capable and the price is reasonable- $498 including IntelliCAD. http://www.autodsys.com/?source=looksmart
For a review..... http://www.cadinfo.net/reviews/archt.htm
Edited 8/21/2003 9:06:54 AM ET by jc
Welcome to Breaktime Kellydesign! You may have figured it out already but you can sort messages by several different categories after you log in and start reading. One of them is "unread messages to me." That's the first place I check when I log on. Hang in there - this forum can be frustrating to navigate at times but it gets easier and it's worth it.
I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Autodesk's Architectural Desktop in this thread. There is no better supported, or more powerful, parametric architectural program on the market. It is big money and has a huge learning curve but, for a person who knows how to use it, it is the best there is.
The key to any package is to know how to make it work for you. Bells and whistles are one thing but that deep knowledge and ability to customize the program to your specific needs is key to true productivity. It sounds like you've figured that out already.
NOW FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF ADVICE I CAN OFFER FROM EXPERIENCE:
It will be a very large step from 2D DOS to any parametric model based CAD so, whatever package you choose, reserve plenty of time and invest in the training right up front. Speaking from experience - training is the investment that will pay the highest dividends for you over the years. Also, be sure to find the user forum for the program on the internet. I've learned more from users through software support forums than from any other source.
It's like a carpenter with a $200 hammer that doesn't know how to use it. The veteran framer can still just about pick up a plastic Mickey Mouse hammer and spank nails faster, and more accurately, all day long than the new kid on the block with the latest toy. Cad is a tool - go ahead and buy that program, equivalent to the $200 titanium hammer, but spend the time and money right up front learning how to "make it drive nails" or you will end up handicapped and frustrated for a very, very long time.
I wish you the very best with whatever you choose and look forward to hearing your decision and experience.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Yes, I did come across Cadsoft and I noticed that it was an Autocad add-on. It could also stand alone. However, if used as a stand alone the program would not be as customizable. A quality that I'm unsure if I desire anymore.
The problem I have is that back in the 80's when I was looking to get into Cad, I searched as I am now. Autocad's pricing seemed to me to be a bit predatory, something that made me uncomfortable. The software that I eventually decided on produced drawings with half the file size of an Autocad drawing. I guess that's why they called it fast cad. In essence, it was a case of why pay more for less - or more?
Kevin is right on with the training advice, and it is an important criteria in my selection. I appreciate his advice because it is obviously heart felt, but I'm not sure that a huge learning curve - which is directly correlational to program complexity - is the answer. I have drawing commands that I have never used in fifteen years.
I feel the stars have finally aligned and that I can make the jump to parametric cad. Training is important to me, but I think would like to do some initial preparation to enhance the experience.
As a point of clairity, by training I don't necessarily mean flying off to Never Never land for a week of hand holding by an expert. I've done that and got a lot of good out of it but the most important thing I did in the leap from 2D to 3D was plan for several days of absolutely no productivity while I wrestled my way through the thick manuals, tutorials and videos related to the programs.
I further convinced my employer to allocate quite a bit of extra time on the first few actual projects I worked on to allow me to work out all of the bugs and resolve the situations that arise when theory was put to the test of reality.
It was a major investment of personal time after regular work hours on my part and a major investment on the part of my employer to willingly loose money on a few projects to allow me to learn enough to more than make up for the loss in the long run. That's the main training "investment" I'm talking about.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I also use Chiefarchitech and the web site http://www.chiefarch.com is very active in support for users. Chief talk is just like the forums here. Chief also comes with a 90 day money back guarantee. You don't need the latest PC to run it on. I had been running version 7 on a pentium 233 (in 2001). it is very easy to start using with more to come. Check out the demo version.
DataCad is a pretty good, decent priced CAD program for architectural work.
Kelly,
Try this link for a DataCad demo of version 10 http://205.181.245.4:591/demo.htm
I can't tell you much about the learning curve, but I've been happily using DataCad since the DOS days, and have been using it for custom residential plans and small commercial projects for the past 15+ years. When I began using cad I started with the then industry standard AutoCad. I have limited experiece with Softplan and Generic Cad, which I'm not sure is available anymore.
One of the best features of the program is the compatibility with AutoCad (dwg format), as I often share drawings with surveyors and landscape designers who are primarily AutoCad users.
This is an excellent program to consider, and for the price you really do get everything you need to prepare 2-d and 3-d drawings if desired. I don't use the estimating add-on, but it is available.
Also, if your drawing size's are not huge, you can get by with DataCad 10 Lt, which has the features of the full-blown program, but limits you file size.
Good luck
Hi Kelly
Just to stretch your mind a bit, you could consider getting a Mac with PowerCADD, an excellent 2D program. I've been using it for a year and a half, I was productive in a couple of days, and at 95% speed in a month.
I know the 3d, object-based programs are all the rage now, and admittedly I don't have much experience with them. I do have some college experience with Autocad and see how it could be useful for figuring out complicated 3D assemblies.
For everyday architectural drafting, though, PowerCADD quickly becomes completely intuitive; it's like drafting by hand except much faster. Plus Macs make it really easy to do photo editing and other image-related stuff. There's a great user board for PowerCADD at
http://www.designcommunity.com/powercadd.html
PowerCADD does have a "skew" feature which makes it easy to do axonometrics, perspectives, and other such adjustments to the drawing.
I don't want to bore you with more details. Suffice it to say that I can't imagine a more user-friendly, powerful, professional program, and I can't imagine that the new breed of programs are worth the cost and the learning curve. PowerCADD is about $800 or $900.
BTW, I'm not a salesman, I work in a residential design/build office. Let me know if you'd like any more information.
Mike
WOW! You folks are wonderful links and all. I appreciate the advice. the downside is I've decided to do some more research. My work is beginning to suffer - which isn't good for a single seat design firm. I am, however, willing to make the investment that Kevin talks about because I anticipate long term dividends.
I've paused to reflect about why I'm interested in changing platforms; the realization is that I spend most my drafting time producing - sections, roof layouts, and sometimes elevations ( when the homes are large multi-leveled with multiple ceiling heights). If there is a way to automate some of those things - I'm interested.
" producing - sections, roof layouts, and sometimes elevations "
With Softplan, sections and elevations are two or three mouse clicks.
Roof layouts - I presume you mean framing. There is an "Auto stick frame" command but that usually takes a little editing and cleanup anyway.
"Cut hole in roof" or "create framed openning" are pretty decent tools.
Excellence is its own reward!
I use ArchiCAD and Chief, and am now (unless something changes dramatically in AC 8.1) more on Chief. I've used ArchiCAD for about 5 years; it used to be the best (IMO) for the residential work I do, but the latest release (8.0) has had major bugs, and the user interface has become so complicated that I am not enjoying it much anymore. It still has quite a large parametric library available, but if you're drawing mostly concrete, brick and wood, rather than furniture, this isn't a huge advantage. It bugs me that the program still can't create a door & window schedule without major pain. It does produce excellent 2D drawings, however.
I am moving more into Chief now because the residential library is HUGE compared to ArchiCAD, and doing custom moldings and cabinets is a snap, and the drawings are VERY quick to produce. However, they don't have quite the subtle "quality" of ArchiCAD's, mostly due to lack of OLE and more sophisticated drawing management tools, so text doesn't always line up as precisely as AC's. But I'm willing to give that up for the benefits.
The best part of Chief for me is that it's so easy and quick to use that I can design with a client sitting next to me. I could never seem to develop that facility in AC. I won't deny that there are things that Chief could do better, like 2D CAD, and text handling.
I spent a lot of time at the Softplan booth at the last PCBC trade show, trying very hard to like it. It does produce wonderful drawings, but some things were so slow, like terrain generation, that they would just drive me nuts. Also, it couldn't automatically produce standard door/window schedules with industry standard labels (you know, like a hexagon with an "A" inside). The 3D libraries were pretty basic. Watching an experienced user (the guy was a trainer for the program) I got the sense that it could draw things very accurately, but the input methodology was more tedious than Chief. It didn't seem to me like I would feel comfortable using this in front of a client, but probably there are Softplan users who do. If my job were mostly to produce construction documents, without a lot of interior design, cabinet and molding details, and 3D visualization interaction with clients, this would be a great program. I was very taken with the SoftTalk feature, and would definitely get this if I were buying the program.
It has always bothered me that Softplan doesn't have a real demo program, and that the only user group has restricted access so you really can't get a sense of the general tone of the user base; e.g. how buggy the program is, and how hard it is for some users to do simple functions. Softplan definitely has its diehard loyalists, so that says something.
I am always searching for the holy grail of 3D CAD programs, but for right now, for one-person *residential* work, Chief is the best I've found so far. For multi-person commercial/institutional work, ArchiCAD would win. One interesting development is that Chief Architect is working on a version that will allow users of the Better Homes & Gardens $99 home design program, to view (in 3D) and "mark up" (but not change) designs you produce in the professional version of Chief. This might be a useful feature for your clients. I don't know if Softplan has a similar "client viewer". Hope these comments are helpful.
Richard
I don't know exactly why SP doesn't produce a working demo. Probably has to do with their protection of the license and use so that profits benefit the users and not the hackers, but that's just my opinion.
SP12 will save as bmp or jpg for client sharing or as dxf or dwg for those with voloviewer
The user group, SPLASH is separate from SP as a membership.
I have never encountered any bugs with three versions. I have heard of a couple that got fixed almost immediately with patches. SP has supreme tech support. Totally free for life ( you pay for the phone call). They want to know if there is a problem. They really do try to produce a program that WORKS instead of marketing one to SELL.
Seems like the marketing people and the tech developers are on two different planets sometimes. Actually some basis for that. Marketing is in Nashville and tech is in Ontario, Canada
I would never want to draw concepts on CAD in front of the client. I have a pencil for that.
But it's not much different than not wanting to do a wall layout with the customer looking over your shoulder. Too much of the brain is invoilved with them instead of with efficiency or creativity. i've seen the ads of Chief users designing in the customers living room but that's not how I work anyway..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffen, I have to say that Richard makes a compelling argument for Chief - almost hypnotic. I was immediately drawn in by the ease with which I produced something that looked like a house, within the 2 hrs. working time allotted by the demo, simply by pushing buttons like an amused ape.
But, he brought up one feature of Soft Plan that also caught my eye, and that is the Soft Talk (ST) feature of the program. It seems to me that ST could be quite the equalizer to any of my perceived short comings about Soft Plan. Just curious do you have ST and if so have you used it and or like it.
PS You guys have got me rolling on the floor with that "is business really that good" thread. -- I think my business is in trouble!
now that you are adicted to Breaktime, I'm sure you're headedd straight to bankruptcy court, LOL
I don't use Soft-talk but hear nothing but good about it. I am starting to get some inflamation from my mouse in myu arm and wrist so it may come to me soon. It is reported to pay for itself in time saved drawing.
I have not used Chief but hear the same everywhere about it in terms of easy to learn and get started.
But then I hear from those who convert to SP that there are little detail and control/customization things that it will not do accurately and they get frustrated with it, then have to learn another program like SP investing again in a new learning curve.
The kind of work you do will have a big impact on your choice. I forget your answer to that Q earlier in the thread. If I were doing mostly standard type framing of new houses, I would be more than happy with Chief, I think. Since I work renovating and remodeling old houses with unique designs and features, the customization abilities of SP are a requirement.
That full library in Chief sounds enticing too. You can create and add to the SP library with custom items or import and convert dxf and dwg files from manufacturers to SP symbls but it would be nice to have it already done for you. I have some ballusters and details from the Fypon catalouge in my symbols, but it takes time to do..
Excellence is its own reward!
Pif, you sent me an email about customizing Soft Plan, with a great example of an odd foundation wall condition. That might be a good example here...can you repost it?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Don't really remember it, or I could find it in my sent files.
I guess what you are refering to is the fact that I can create any type of wall from any type of materials. I am currently modeling an 1800 cape for renovation. It has rubble foundation capped with granite. Here is my 3D representation labels screenshot....
I will throw in a couple of other spaces I drew up too..
Excellence is its own reward!
Here's what you wrote. I think it's worth sharing because of the descriptioon of the wall construction, and the fact that you could create it in Softplan.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Mr Smith convinced me to buy Chief and I love it. Just last night as the client and his parents looked on I adjusted the design to meet his needs and then showed a walk thru movie- signed contract even tho my price was four k higher than the other bidders. Hopefully they are buying the better quality- but the movie didn't hurt
I used to draw in acad- tedious
most of the terminology you guys are using is lost on me- i just know i can draw everything i drew in acad in about a third of the time in chief.
Don't really see anything here that Chief can't do. One thing I like is the ability to do custom moldings. I created the attached rendering to show a client a concept for door moldings, as well as the glazed doors, and did the shot attached here in about 10 mins. (including creating the molding profile).
Richard
Edited 8/25/2003 12:52:28 AM ET by Richard
Somebody gave me Broderbund's 3D Home Architect Deluxe 3.0 Software. I heard that this is essentially the same software as Chief Architect minus a few features.
Does anyone know if this is true? If so what features are missing?
Any feedback positive or negative would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Mike in Aurora
It's written by the same company that does Chief Architect, but 3DHA 3.0 is a relatively old release, and the current Chief is light years ahead now. You can contact ART (http://www.chiefarchitect.com) to get more specifics, but off the top of my head, I can think of some items that are probably "missing": no terrain modeling, no large format printing, no customizable walls/materials, no advanced CAD tools, far smaller 3D libraries, basic or no rendering, no ability to create CAD detail libraries. 3DHA is good for basic homeowner conceptual stuff, but I wouldn't try to do production drawings with it.
Richard
Mike, I have the lite version of Chief and it lacks enough elements that it is frustrating to use. I have Chief Architect Home Edition 5.0 and it cost something like $500, not cheap, yet I think it sucks and I am considering going to the full 9.0 version or switching to SoftPlan. Point is, if you want to play around, the Broderbund will be fun. If you want to do a little semi-serious drawing, the Home Edition 5.0 will do okay. But if you want to do real drawings, you may have to pay the price.
Do it right, or do it twice.