Replies

1. 
   TerryB_ | Dec 16, 1999 01:36am | #1

   *
   Well, you might have had a short fuse that day, but she certainly did light it. When you have justifiable pride in your work, you don't take crap from the 'silly' people of the earth, and you shouldn't. I run into the "more money, than brains" type myself. In an office setting, it's easier to deal with; out on the job, though, I would find it hard to put up with, period.
   Technically, if her "Highness" has a problem with production, she takes it up with the general contractor, not you. That is your G.C.'s fault for not making that clear to HRH. I think you were justified, but maybe on a better day you simply would have immediatly told the G.C. to explain the rules to her majesty. God Save The Queen!

2. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 02:10am | #2

   *
   Lawrence, I think this is something we all deal with day in and day out. The monied people figure anyone who works with their hands and wear steel toed boots should be treated like dirt. Well, I finally found an answer for those people after all these years. I tell them:

   "I am a magician! You don't pay me anything, I make my money appear out of thin air! What I do for you is transform one asset (numbers in your bank account) into another asset of equal or greater value, a warm, comfortable asset you can read a book in, raise your children in, look out at the view from... and when you tire of it, you can turn it back into numbers again by selling it to someone else. Your money never leaves your possession, it always is, was and will be yours. So please, don't treat me like you're giving me thousands of dollars and that you're doing me a big favour letting me work for you. I perform magic for a living, and you're the beneficiary!"

   That said, brother Lawrence, I have also found from painful experience that when the shit hits the fan it is far better to let actions speak louder than words. Say as little as possible and play your cards close to your chest, think it through carefully before you take a course of action, and remember that whenever a customer gets out of hand like that it's usually because we forgot to make the ground rules clear beforehand. Leaving the job is always an option, we're not slaves, but working it out without anger or blame is far more satisfying... not that I've always followed my own advice!

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 02:53am | #3

   *This attitude of people that they can treat folks with dirt under their fingernails as "less thans" is all too prevelant in our society. I think of it as "classism". It is rampant - as easily recognized by us as racism is to people of color. The sad thing is, the folks you have to point it out to, have absolutely NO idea what you're talkin' about. But once you recognize this classism for what it is, you see it everywhere. I've never pulled off the job, but I've been sorely tempted. Don't beat yourself up too bad about it Lawrence, any more than you pat yourself on the back when you tolerate the same thing to a lesser degree on another day. What's done is done. I think I would have a long talk with the GC who put me on the job though, and explain my side of it and clear the air with him. - jb

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 03:00am | #4

   *Well said , Ross.....I've been there Lawrence, and in my younger days, I might have walked ,too.I remember one job where I was in the position of your G.C. friend and my joint venture partner had his lead man walk because of the same type of treatment HRH was dishing out.Well, he could walk, but it didn't help me, I had a contract and had to stick around for another month. I sure would hav e appreciated it if he had given me the option of laying down the law to the homeowner. But after he walked, I had nothing left to bargain with, and the homeowner thought that he had the high moral ground.I guess that I feel we are all professionals, and should be treated as such, but when the going gets tough, we still have to fulfill the contract or pay the legal consequences.You always have the satisfaction of not working for them again. So, I guess I would say , suck it in and let the GC have a try at it.

3. 
   Mad_Dog | Dec 16, 1999 04:19am | #5

   *
   Been there done that. Worked on a crew years back, slaving under a rich bastard who would not only verbally abuse the lowliest but the gc as well, and we were supposed to take it. He changed things all the time, the minute we were finished with a task, and complaining all the way. We worked a lot of 16-18 hour days there, and one stretch was a full 24 hours including travel time. I've never been so tired in my life since.

   Well, one of our guys was so tired he was almost delirious, dropped a timber on the blade of a shovel, the handle popped up right into another workers eye-he had a bump the size of a baseball sticking out of the front of his head and this a**hole didn't even want to call an ambulance for the poor guy, afraid of getting involved.

   Everyone walked. No one said a word. End of story? Not hardly. The company got sued and forced to finish the contract, even though there was a clause about "difficulty with the client" written into it. We ended up putting in another 6 months there.

   He owned several McDonalds franchises and thought he could treat everyone as subservient to him and his whims. That guy needed to be on the receiving end of more than just a shovel handle.

   MD

1. 
   bkunkle | Dec 16, 1999 08:43am | #6

   *lerning to control our emotions/temper/pride is really tough anytime i think of walkin i remember what it cost me the last time and suck it in because it always cost

4. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 11:12am | #7

   *
   Ok...another clarification. This was not one of my jobs. My friend's ex girlfriend and my ex wife talked each other into leaving us because we work too much. He was behind on the job, and begged me to come and help him for a week or two. I was there all told 3 weeks. I put my jobs on hold to help him out. I left the door open finally saying...if you want us here, we need a raise...25% as I see it, an ignorance fee. (a conservative fee at that)

   Secondly, guys, say it aint so. Say these classists are not immedietly recognizable, and please tell me this is not a full blown trend. It cannot be something our brothers deal with on an ongoing basis. This is seriously the first time I have had to deal with this kind of thing. I guess the truth of the matter is that most of the people who I work for know exactly what my qualifications are and know me quite well before I get to the site. Certainly in this day and age we can choose the people we work for?

   Ligitimately this lady had no clue as to who I was. An honest error, yet forgivable? NOT A CHANCE! NO one deserves to be disrespected, period. Certainly not talented craftsmen. This attitude of disrespect is a relatively new trend. It is a product of consumerism. I am going to leave you with a quote. It was originally said nearly 2000 years ago. Think about it gentlemen. Woodwork was once a respectable craft.

   "Who invites or constrains a stranger to his board, unless he happens to be some creative man, a prophet or healer or worker in wood, or perhaps some surpassing musician with power to give joy by song? Such men are asked the world over."

   HOMER Translation by T.E.Lawrence

   L

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 04:05pm | #8

   *Lawerence,Yeah I got a t-shirt from that one too. I took my crew off one job and told the lady to sue me. She finally apologized, paid up front and agreed not to be there when we did the work.Had another accuse me of damaging a sink. I was in high school and she didnt know I was the bosses son. Luckily I run into the opposite a lot more often. People who appreciate what we do, and know we work hard for little compensation. If you sleep well at night you made the right choice.Rick Tuk

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 05:47pm | #9

   *Like a baby Rick! I know exactly what you mean. L

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 06:30pm | #10

   *Pardon me if I don't jump right in and join the pity party. First you claim your righteous indignation and then turn around and prostitute yourself by saying "I won't stand for this treatment" . . . unless I'm paid double? If this treatment truly disgusts you, and it should, then don't subject yourself to it, for any price. Some would say life is a sh*t sandwich; the more bread you get, the easier it is to swallow. I don't follow that logic.The tone of your letter also indicates your carrying a ton of emotional baggage. Maybe you should take some time off and re-evaluate your life situation while you can still view it rationally.Sometimes when we overreact to outside influences, it is a sign that something inside isn't right. Would you have reacted the same if she claimed you had purple hair? (assuming you don't). Probably not. The reason is that you're sure of who you are in that respect. But let someone challange something deeper, something there may be inner doubts about, and watch out.I'm not a psychologist, but I know what works for me. In life you'll always be confronted with difficult people, this is not a situation of choice. The choice lies in how you let these difficult people affect you and your behavior. I sincerely hope that you give this some thought.

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 07:48pm | #11

   *When I first read Eric's post,particularly the first paragragh I was ready to dump all over him. But as I read the rest of his post I realized he has some very valid points,especially about the emotional baggage and inner doubts.I do have sympathy for your situation though.I think we have all been treated like this at one time or another. There have been times when I have not handled it well at all.(not even as well as you have).When I look back on each incident with more professional detachment I can CLEARLY see that there was someway in each incident to have defused the situation.Experience,and 20/20 hindsight is a valuable teacher. It has been years now since I have had a real problem like that.Jim was right when he mentioned "Classism".Though I rarely,if ever,work above the "upper middle class" economic strata,there is often a definite "white collar" superiority attitude demonstrated by customers( I deal with customers,not clients) and even people I deal with socially.It secretly amuses me(and now my wife also)that we can now buy and sell some of the people who have been most snobbish or Class Conscious.But we keep our mouths shut and proceed on our merry way.( The race is not always won by the quickest).now in my opinion,the classiest way you could have handled the situation was to calmly,quietly,and with some dignity,packed up your gear and then gone to your buddy and said something like"I am happy to come here and help you out of a bind,because you know the kind of work I demand of myself and you know I have put my own projects on hold to help you out of a tight spot.If you want me to continue here you are gonna have to straighten this woman out because I don't deserve to take her crap. Give me a call tonight or tommorrow and let me know If you have handled It"It's easy for us to offer advice and act like geniuses cause we were not involved in the heat of the situation.I wish you the very best of luck,Stephen

5. 
   TerryB_ | Dec 16, 1999 07:51pm | #12

   *
   Eric, I agree a man must stand on his principles, but this situation required putting Lawrence's friend in a bind. That's why he struggling with it. He also said it was the first time he encountered this behavior. Ultimately, it is a learning experience. Hopefully, HRH learned a thing or two as well.

6. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 07:52pm | #13

   *
   Lawrence,

   Maybe I missed something, but is your friend the gc disappointed? Or was that a hypothetical? How
   i did
   he react?

   I agree with Eric that if a situation was so bad I would walk, I wouldn't go back for any sum of money.

   Although in that situation walking may have been the only recourse you felt was open to you, I wouldn't recommend it as a strategy to keep in the playbook, so to speak.

   I wouldn't be worrying about whether I was wrong or not, but whether there was a better alternative open to me or not. If there wasn't, then I did the right thing. If there was, then if and when it comes up again I would be better able to deal with it.

   Definitely keep sleeping like a baby.

   Rich Beckman

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 10:09pm | #14

   *Thanks for the responses gentlemen. I don't recall looking for pity, and really have no use for such a thing. Secondly, I would admit that my short fuse is definitely due to some issues. Some of my friends around here would know all about that. I guess the truth of the matter is that as carpenters, we can't afford to fight classism. Standing up for our principals is beyond our financial resources. As a White Hetero Male in this society and not being of racist background I know nothing of racism or classism. It has been a rude awakening. I was entirely unequipped to deal with it. On the same site were 2 fellows, indentured servents to the owners. Mark my words these guys were making somewhere in the order of 3-400/week, driving the owners vehicles, and working likely 70-90 hours a week. They were paid by salary...weekly rate. At the end..as I was leaving, I spoke to the more talented of the two, for the first time. (they were slightly threatened by us). He said he knew all about it....(why I was leaving), and that as an abused child...he had considered leaving numerous times. He said he had worked for these people for 7 years. They bite their tongues, kiss butt, and work their *sses off. He told me that she is the more difficult of the pair, and he stays because her husband usually smooths things over. Steven, ther is no chance of straightening this woman out. Her father was a notoriously aggresive antique of a man. Well known to all in Ontario. *there'll be no Ruskies in my rink*, was a common quote. You can't change people, it is pointless. I have always been intolerant of bullies. It was sort of my trademark in high school, and now in business. I just hate it when my obstinate streak makes life difficult for others, and will try hard to control it in the future. Rich, My friend and the GC were very disappointed. They are under pressure from this woman, and really wanted the help. I sadly, could not endure the torture, *in my current state*, truth be known. Thanks to all! I understand a little better.L

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 10:10pm | #15

   *Wisdom is something learned through years of experiences...A little golden rule or two of mine...People treat others as you set them up to treat you... In other words, the world around you is mostly if not fully of your own making....That's what I think of luck... and whether one feels like they are of a class here or there in relation to another....etc.It's neat to finally feel wisdom as one ages but I'm still not thrilled with the grey hairs....nor able to follow my own best advice consistently...Hey...we're human and only here for so long....enjoy!Lawrence,Humor might have saved you and helped bread thru the artificial divide that was supposedly between you and this other... Change is the hardest thing for people...Last week we were in the middle of renovating a tennis court for a large Hotel and this elderly neighbor walking her dog walks up and asks, "What are you doing? Is this must be terrible, will there be transients now?"...I said, " sure there will!" She says, "Will there be beer drinking?...Of course there will be, lots of beer drinking!...She looked a little confused and then I jumped in after looking at her dog about to poop on our lawn and I said, " And dogs, there will be lots of dogs....pooping dogs!!!...Well, finally she laughed with me...We had just become freinds in thirty seconds...I then explained that all would be OK with the new courts being good for all and she went on her way with one last proud remark that she would be sure to inform the neighborhood of all she learned!@!!!...I call that magic...I done way worse with the same situation and it was all b my choice really.near the stream,aj

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 10:44pm | #16

   *Fair enough, AJ, but (it's all coming clear since Lawrence's last post) he's dealing with Ballards (I think I'm right; Canada's most evil hockey family). They are barely human, normal rules of conduct don't apply. They are born with both eyes open looking for a way to screw folks.From the Canadian experience, if the witch is a Ballard, this was a lose/lose proposition from the start.

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 16, 1999 11:05pm | #17

   *Adrian, old pal...you may want to edit that name so that we both don't get sued for slander....OK? Please? LMAO (Laughing)LUmmm I think it is spelled ballad...(lower case!)

7. 
   TerryB_ | Dec 16, 1999 11:41pm | #18

   *
   AJ; Some people just don't get it and won't respond to humor. Like the Captain said in Cool Hand Luke...."Some men you just can't reach." However, I agree most people want to be listened to first and if you can find some common ground you're ahead of the game.

   (Good thing Scotty Bowman didn't have a problem with Russian players!)

8. 
   Guest_ | Dec 17, 1999 12:57am | #19

   *
   Greetings AJ....nice to see you!
   I have never known AJ to be wrong about anything...

   Nearer to jack's stream....by the minute...typing with mittens on....got cold all of a sudden

9. 
   Donna_Smeaton | Dec 17, 1999 03:34am | #20

   *
   Interesting post.
   Heard a little story that you all might find amusing. Seems there was a house in the established wealthiest part of Canada's capital (you know-embassies and executive homes) being renovated....well one morning the electrician (I believe it was) DESPERATELY needed to use the loo (toilet to you Yanks) He asked permission of the lady of the house. "Well", she said, "my cleaners have just been through, and I'm having a party tomorrow so I'd rather that you not use the facilities." With that, Mr. Electrician packed his tools, left in a hurry to the closest restaurant, nearly soiling himself enroute, used the washroom, had a coffee and continued on his way. A day or two later the client called to ask where he was and what about his work. His reply "Lady, if I'm not good enough to use your toilet, I'm sure as hell not good enough to work on your house."

   Lawrence you mentionned that you've never been treated like that before...that's probably because YOUR clients know you and respect you. Take heart that this woman was not YOUR client. It would have been FAR worse if she had been a client of yours.

   I know of a recent incident where a fellow left a jobsite after having worked closely for a family for about a year. To me, that would be worse to be suddenly treated like dirt by someone who you had worked hard for for a year and when one little thing isn't perfect, they jump all over you and insult you to the point of quitting.

   I would have done the same, had I been in your shoes.

10. 
    Guest_ | Dec 17, 1999 04:56am | #21

    *
    Screw 'em. I don't have much, but they're welcome to try and prise it off my corpse. But they better be prepared to get bloody. Man, that carp must be a good buddy of yours; you'd never get me in that door.

11. 
    Penny(dragonlady474) | Dec 17, 1999 06:21am | #22

    *
    OK...here goes... clearly everyone has certain things they will not put up with. I for one wouldn't put up with rude behavior no matter who it was...the president...the pope..etc. If some lady who thought she was all that stepped up to me, ESPECIALLY if I had been working longer than expected and was hot, tired and sweaty, I'd have had a few things to say back to her as well. Why is it that everyone is talking about how HE did this and that when she's the one who was being rude initially??? Carpentry to some people is an art, who would hire an artist and expect him to put up with that? No one but a truly ignorant person. Ok....I've said my peace now. :)
    Dragon

12. 
    Guest_ | Dec 17, 1999 07:33am | #23

    *
    Penny,

    I can't speak for everyone else, but I agree completely that it is HER that is the problem. But she is like gravity when roofing. A problem you cannot change, you have to deal with it. I think that is why we are addressing responses to her instead of her.

    If that made sense.

    Rich Beckman

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 17, 1999 07:46am | #24

   *LawrenceTough situation. . . that family's ugly rep presedes them, as Adrian pointed out, but that aside, being there to help out your friend puts you in a no win situation. I think you should have sucked it up and told your friend to deal with it immediately, or you would give notice. He's obviously in a tight spot, and you probably did his rep some harm by acting.i unprofessionally.When it's your job, you can take risks with your own rep, but when you're part of a crew, you should have some loyalty and be prepared to suck it up sometimes. Better not to take the job than to mess with your friends rep.I learned the hard way that walking off a job can do you more harm than you realize. I had a similar situation several years ago while doing an extensive job for a nice lady and her Prison Guard husband. He was an arrogant, mean mouthed Jekyll/Hyde asshole, who was used to verbally abusing people. My helper and I put up with several i borderlineincidents, and then after one nasty phone call I gave my notice, and packed up the next day. Several months later, a friend treated me to what their side of the story was doing to my reputation. These things take on a life of their own.. .and the customer is always right.Your friend may be a long time getting over it. While I sympathize more than you could imagine, in this case it was his call not yours.-pm

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 17, 1999 08:07pm | #25

   *OK, struggling long and hard, I have come to a few conclusions. First, the entire story will never be known, it would look more like a book. Point one, I never should have been there. I do my own jobs, and rarely work for contractors, my clients know me, and respect my ability, otherwise they would not choose to deal with me. Secondly, AJ, humor may have been one of the causes of the problem. Scott, my helper is a Simpsons aficionado. The guy has at least 10 characters voice tracks down and will let loose with these comments in the various voices causing laughter, which obviously bothered the owner. "How dare they have a good time while working?” Patrick, Although it could be said that I did leave my friend hanging, it was not without warning. After my first verbal spank, I had approached him and asked him to smooth the situation out. It was not my place to explain anything to this lady, being hired help, (non-management). In his wisdom he chose to ignore it and go about his work. A quick explanation from him, or the contractor as to who I was and the caliber and efficiency of my work would have reassured her as to my abilities. There was a portfolio in my truck that would have put the point across to her in Technicolor! Had he been a little more self assured about his station in life, and his woodwork prowess, (which I can tell you he ranks among the best Canada has to offer), he would have disarmed the situation. Truth be known, he almost walked off the job not a week before, and I assisted in talking him out of it. True, I could have been the "bigger man", and bit my tongue, and avoided this situation. However, I have never been one to stand down from my convictions. I can't help but believe that when faced with abuse, all of this lady’s hired help responded in the same fashion, she would get the point. She treats people that way...because weak willed people allow her to do so. It may cost me financially on occasion, or create hassles for me, and other people, (not very often), but I must be true to my convictions. Whether it be Canadian carpenters working for half of what Americans earn, or working people accepting classism inflicted, just because it is the norm is no reason to justify it as reasonable. So often we look at a seemingly insurmountable situation and throw our hands up saying, "What can I do about it? I'm just one guy!” Well, I don't buy into that line of thinking. He almost walked off the job not a week before, and I assisted in talking him out of it. So, I regret agreeing to enter the site, but must stand by my position Vs the bully woman.L

13. 
    Guest_ | Jan 05, 2000 05:44am | #26

    *
    Let’s start off with a definition… Pomposity, disdain for others, conceited disposition, one who due to a frail ego is attempting to exert their superiority over others, (my own personal definition).

    Please forgive the length of the following short story, but I seek to explain to my good friend my position and satisfy my conscience that I have done the proper thing, or not.

    I mind my business.

    I go to work, do my job, (quite well I am told), rarely make serious errors aside from accidently chopping off the odd digit, (at least they are mine). I try very hard to be courteous and polite and friendly. I try to keep a level of professionalism, but am no saint. I make comments, to my associates that may be off color or uncalled for, but I keep the volume down. I may have what seem to be odd hours of work, however this is explained ahead of time and the client or contractor has the choice to accept this or not.

    Since I worked hard (12 years of 70-80 hour weeks---no vacations), and invested so much time learning my craft and have invested so heavily in my tools over the years, I feel pretty good about the service I provide and the rates I charge for the service. I do believe that the craftsmen of this world deserve to be respected as professionals and as people.

    In a society (canada), where most janitors make more money than the average carpenter, this self respect is necessary to carry on day to day, and when that feeling of worthiness and well being is threatened…I can become a little disgruntled.

    When a modern day slave owner, (not kidding), gives this seasoned Carpenter a verbal spanking…Laughter is the result. Shock and dismay follow shortly after ….followed up quickly by *standing up to look her square in the eye* , and to let out a polite yet baiting… “PARDON ME”, * as if to say why don’t you just go ahead and embarrass yourself in front of everyone present*. This lady, (loosely defined), takes the bait, hook and all, yet with a puzzled kind of look, as if no one in her 50 odd years had ever questioned her supreme judgements. *she claps her hands*, and says “I NEED SOME PRODUCTION HERE!”. Looking her straight in the eye, I tell her, “Madam, you are mistaken. I would defy you to find another carpenter to complete this job as quickly and to the same quality”.

    I remember a couple of days earlier when she was bragging about being in charge of the WCB, (workers compensation board), Woodwork shop. And 2 days previous when we had worked until 11 pm and she had no idea how much work was completed in the last month let alone in the previous day.

    It wasn’t 5 minutes later she came out to blame us for a damaged floor in a bedroom upstairs. Pine floors installed 2 months previous, before any of the trim had been installed, likely because she had barked an order to have it verathaned … Well, we hadn’t damaged the floor. With a voice every bit as disdainful and disrespectful as hers, “HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE US OF SOMETHING, WITHOUT WITNESS OR REASON?, PACK UP THE TOOLS BOYS!”, was my response. She was flabbergasted, and let out a, “You really don’t get it!”, “No maam, you are the one who is confused…A slave must be fed, clothed and housed….you have done none of that…”. I finished the part of the job, and went downstairs where the general contractor and my friend the lead carpenter were standing and let them know. We are leaving. If we are to be here working tomorrow the rate is doubled. The right to deliver verbal slaps and disrespect people undeservedly does not come cheap.

    Firstly, am I wrong?

    Secondly, Since I was there on a temporary basis, and had already stayed a week and a half longer than I expected, does my friend the lead carpenter on the site have any reason to be disappointed in me for leaving. After all, the general had a choice…pay me the additional required to allow me to, in good conscience, put up with the spoiled child running around the house abusing people.

    Does an unwarranted verbal spanking not warrant a financial or schedule penalty?

    Maybe you folks can enlighten me, or my friend. I know there is no cut and dry answer, and I suffer from a quick temper, however ….what is your opinion.