I’ve got a question for y’all…
I’m borrowing a buddies copy of Chief Arch X1 and boy it really seems like the ticket. 3-d renders to permit ready drawings all in one program unlike the kludge I’ve been doing of starting the design in FloorPlan 3d and importing it into Turbo-Cad to get the scaled drawings…
Anywho, had the bright idea of hiring some local Chief wizard to start with my cad files of the house and produce a real true exact as built model-with correct framing and everything. The roof on this place is going to be really hard to get right. I figure I can learn X1 and take the finished models and tweak them with different remodeling ideas.
I put an add on the Chief Arch forum and got several responses from people not even close to being in my area… I want an exact dead-nuts on model of the house because all the future plans and engineering are going to come from this model.
How the heck you going to produce an honest accurate as-built from halfway across the country? I don’t want to be climbing around in the attic measuring stuff for these guys that’s what I’d be paying them for no?
What’s a reasonable expectation for accuracy in an as-built? Everything to within an 1″, 1/4″ what?
Thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
Wanted you're opinion on this if you would.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Daniel, doing your ad on Chieftime only reaches a teenie part of the audience. Plenty of Chief users don't go to the forum, ever, and plenty more are just infrequent participants.
Since you want the as-built model done in Chief, you should get out the yellow pages and start calling locally for architects and designers, and tell each contact you are looking specifically for someone who uses Chief, and uses it for remodeling. You are in a big metro market in SF, and should have no trouble.
As best as I can tell, an experienced person can expect to spend up to four hours on site doing all the measuring and picture-taking, then up to a full day at the PC to come up with the results you need.
I'm going into a rock-solid 1925 craftsman bungalow here in town, sometime next week, to do just that. The owner wants to blow out the main floor so as to make heated living space of all the porches, add a modest bumpout, then decapitate the half-story roof and walls above, then do a full height new top floor.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Thanks for getting back to me Gene I appreciate it.
What do you think are reasonable parameters for as-builts? As in what accuracy is reasonable?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
It depends greatly on the quality of the structure, and also on the ability to do the forensic work needed to find out what's going on.
I passed on one this week that would have been a nightmare for me, because there was so much sagging, tilting, out-of-squareness, and very badly remodeled spaces, it would have been nigh near impossible to get things to "close," in doing the model.
By "forensics" I mean cutting away drywall, lath, plaster, etc., so as to see and measure critical framing elements. It is easy to do, and easy to choose where you can and cannot make cuts, if the remodel program is pretty well known.
Accuracy is only needed in the part or parts of the house where structure will be added on, and furthermore, good remodeling contractors are used to seeing the symbol "+/-" and knowing they have to build to accommodate existing stuff.
I cannot say what kind of accuracy you should expect, because I don't know anything about your project.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
What's a reasonable expectation for accuracy in an as-built?
Depends on what you're willing to pay. More accurate rendering/plans comes from more time spent taking meaurements.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Well ya of course I guess what I'm asking is whats typical in a situation like this and do you think its possible to do this remotely?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Off topic, but what happened to the top story plan?
John
We think we've got it figured out I'm now just looking to translate the idea into a real true representation.
Uh I've got a thread on that don't I I'll check it out and update it.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Even further off topic - huge congrats on that 2 foot addition to your home! Haven't checked the blog in a while - almost missed that! Better get crack'n <grin>
Yea you're telling me we still don't have heat and the place is still a disaster area.... But now we've got a hard deadline to at least get some of the place habitable...
We sent that blog post out as our christmass card this year to many, many people...its funny the people who obviously didn't read it all the way thru, they reply back with this general platitude..maybe 50% of the people we sent that too read all the way thru...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 1/26/2009 10:00 pm by madmadscientist
Aw, you're in pretty good shape there. DW was in her 1st trimester, sick on the couch with a 2yr old running around. Fridge on the porch, most of the walls off, hole where the bathroom was supposed to be (usin' the outhouse temproarily...). Got 'er done with 2 months to spare.
Paint'n the just-remodeled BR 3 weeks before the first one was borne. In that BR. Ah, the memories! You will look back with fondness, may just take a few years (er, decades...).
I've done quite a few as-builts and can tell you the answer is 'depends'. I've had smallish (2500 sf) relatively new houses (1980's) close within 1/4". Then there's a rambling 200 year old colonial you're lucky to get within 3". If you have a wall leaning one way or the other, you might get a different measurement on the wall if you measure close to the floor or the ceiling.
You have to decide the accuracy required for the purposes of the measure-up, factor in available time, budget, access and measuring techniques (100' tape, laser?) and work from there.
I guess that when I mean accurate I mean can they get the crazy victorian-colonial mix roof right? I understand about wonky walls and what not but things like the roof and its framing should be pretty dead-nuts on right?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
It kind of depends on access again. If you're looking for an as-built roof framing plan, then attic access is a must. If you can get to it, it should be pretty straight forward, even for a crazy victorian roof.
I measured a 2 story house with a funny roof one time and because of grade, couldn't quite fully comprehend the roof. The satellite images from google earth and msn live filled in the missing pieces.
Man they moved this thread to the 'business' section and I almost couldnt find it.
Since the top and bottom floors are still gutted to the studs seing the roof framing is not a problem. Heck a1/3 of the middle floor is gutted too lots of framing to see.
Do you agree though that its nuts to do this without physically going to the house and measuring stuff?
I've started a bit of a fight on the ChiefTalk forum with people emailing me telling me who not to use and what not...
thanks for the reply,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
mad.... by the time you resolve this, you could learn the program yourself
X1 is great... but X2 is better.. and the training videos will help you over the rough spots
you can get a great as-built from measurements and pictures... it seems that your biggest angst is the roof
but some basic measurements and good pictures can give a CAD jockey enough to get your roof dead-onMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
How much better is X2 vs X1?
I am attempting to learn Chief now I just thought it would be easier to have some help with the as-builts.
Is it rational for me to want the framing of the roof to match actual? You're a skilled chief user what do you consider reasonable accuracy in as-builts?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
depends on your goal.... as builts that don't affect the addition should "represent" what is there
things that have to tie-in to as-builts can be field adjusted
it is in space planning that you want the accuracy... and... it is usually only in kitchens and baths that +/- 1" matters and in stairwell headrooms
ie: if i'm doing an as-built , i'm doing it for two reasons.. so i can get the space planning right and to sell the customer the job... so it has to be correct in dimensions and LOOK like what they see
but i don't agonize over getting the model EXACTLY right... too time consuming
time is money... but for you... it's your baby... so you can spend ( devote )
the time you want
X1 was a little squirrley.. so i stayed with 10.08a until two weeks ago... then i saw X2 and talked to beta testers... X2 is very stable and very nice
so i decided that now was the time to move on and learn the new version.. and i could leap-frog X1 in the process
this had become a little every 18 month exercise with me ... every 18 months or so Chief comes out with a new version... so we all have to decide.. stay with what we know... or accept the new learning curve for the added benfits
every once in awhile Chief stumbles... for example...... 9.0 was so bad they ditched it and came out with 9.5
10 was very good . ... after they went thru a bunch of patches to get to 10.08a
X1 was interesting but lots of bugs...
X2 is great..... (12.0.2.126 )... well worth the time to learn
if you have SSA you can download X2 for free ( SSA for X1 costs 395 )
SSA for 10 costs $795
i was so impressed with X2 that i upgraded all 3 of our licences to SSA and loaded X2 on all 3 machinesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Daniel, have you tried any of the local (or nearest) Chief users groups? Or Cragslist?
Mike, did you see Wendy Welton saying she can do an as-built, tape to completion of model, in between 2 and 2.5 hours?
For you, not your associates, how many jobs do you do per year in Chief?
You would like the one I will go into next week with lasers and tools to measure. Built like a rock in 1925 by some people with means, everything was done right, and it is mostly all original.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
one of the reasons my proficiency in chief never attains my desire is because i only work in it a couple hours a week
and most of that is importing jpg's or.... i'll do an entire plan... but never revisit it as soon as i get to con docs
and i do lots of work-arounds to get to con docs fast
but... this X2 is pretty inspiring.... so.... maybe i'll take advantage of this lull and buckle down to learn iti was at a user group meeting with Wendy when she showed us X2... that was what convinced me i met her two years ago at a New England user group meeting... she and i did not hit it off but she's the real dealand in watching her work with chief .... yes... i have no doubt she can do those as-builts just as she describesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
when i was learning chief in version 5.... 6 .... 8... i'd go up to Berryvale Software in ME and stay over for a two-day classSteve Blake was a good dealer.. good instructor... but he knew next to nothing about construction or what goes into a good set of con docswatching someone like wendy, who knows the program, and construction , and architecture.... oh, yeahMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Wendy Welton, from NH?
yeah......NHMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, no wonder I couldn't find the thread. Well, it's not nuts. I've drafted up existing conditions that someone else in the office measured. Usually you want to draft the stuff you measure, but sometimes schedules don't allow. So, since I'm working from someone elses measurements and photos, what does it matter if I'm in the same office or across the country?
I think that if you take careful measurements, record them systematically and clearly and can take clear photos, most anyone that is efficient at this can draft you up what you're looking for, regardless of where they are. On the other hand, existing conditions are a great way to learn a cad program, if you want to tackle it yourself.
Why don't you do this yourself? Chief is pretty easy to learn. I did my first set of plans for the building department within two months of buying the program.
I noticed you're in Alemada. There is a fellow who lives on the peninsula who developed Chief. (The guy who started chief was in Atherton). Alan Fry is his name, if I recall correctly. He's one of the voices on the training videos. His business now is exactly what you're asking, although if you want the sort of accuracy you seem to be talking about there's going to be a hefty bill involved. That level of detail is totally unnecessary for plans.
Otherwise, for those long distance guys it's pretty easy to do that level of accuracy if you supply the specs. Again, why aren't you doing this yourself?