I’ve been wondering, when remodeling a home that was built before or during times that asbestos was being used, how are you guys determining what materials are potential asbestos hazards. Obvious answer is testing, but how do you decide when a test is necessary. It is supposedly not able to be distinguished by the naked eye. On some older homes, it seems as though there are quite a few potential areas for concern.
So, when you go on a remodel job, and your gonna do some demo, how do you determine what and when a test is warranted. How can you be sure you diddn’t miss something?
Replies
xo
I take core samples (hole saw) of the floors and have them tested by a local lab. If the house was built pre 1976 there could be asbestos in the vinyl floors, window glazing and textured ceilings (popcorn). Some things you can encapsulate with paint others need to be abated. A small sample of these items can be tested for a price. The lab charges by the layer. It may cost a couple hundred dollars but a least you know what you are dealing with. The samples are reflected in my estimate. Hope this helps.
Mark
The most common places to find asbestos, not necessarily in order, are:
1. Floor tiles
2. Floor mastic
3. Wall shingles
4. Some textures applied to walls/ceilings
5. Insulation around heating ducts/pipes
The last one is usually obvious. The other 3 probably require testing.
Bryan,
Drywall mud before the 70's contains asbestos.
Hardwood floor underlay until maybe the 1950's (up to 85% asbestos).
Ron
What underlay are you refering to? Do you mean like floor leveler?
Bryan,
No, the "paper" sheet that was used for many years. It's grey, thicker than paper and about a yard wide. When you pull it apart, you can see fibres. I don't know what the other 15% is. I have been unable to figure our why anybody would use it and what they thought they were going to achieve.
Ron
Great, I think I just tore 168 sq. ft. of it out...
Bryan,
I've been treating it warily for the last few years. Before that - rip, tear and heave. I think, though I don't know, that it is made of the less dangerous, more flexible form of asbestos. The really dangerous stuff is the dusty, powdery fibres like what was used for pipe cladding.
Ron
My understanding is that the issue is "can it become airborne?" Encapsulated, and you don't end up breathing it in. I'm not sure what year that layer was installed (it was the one under the current layer and over the original pine floors). Man it sure was ugly though. I can't imagine picking a small brown square as an attractive floor covering.So, like you said, we ended up tearing some of it. Mostly just left it attached to the underlayment and tore the whole thing out.Now, as to that black coating on the pine, I'm not sure. It didn't seem to be an adhesive, as the plywood didn't stick to it. But I sure don't know what it is.
Wasn't asbestos considered a fireproofing material?
http://grungefm.com
I think so. At the time, it was considered one of these "wonder products". Sort of like Teflon. It would do anything. My dad told me he remembered helping his FIL mix up asbestos with a plaster type compound to smear over the boiler. They just mixed and spread by hand.
Is your father well?
Any signs of mesothelioma? Or cancer?
Not to be morbid, but it happens, and has happened to many families.
http://grungefm.com
Mixing it in something like plaster would get it wet and stick it down. If they didn't get a lot of dust in the air, they're probably OK.
Asbestos is pretty much harmless unless you breath in the dust and fibers. A lot of people don't know that, so they treat it like it was plutonium. People worry way too much about asbestos, and not enough about breathing in other kinds of microparticles.
-- J.S.
There is another thread about installing a bunch of flags in dirt. There is a picture of my parents residence.http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/memorial-day-flags-in-2004.htmActually, I will say that my dad argued with my physics teacher about some rock used on an unpaved road near an elementary school. Our area had an unusually high rate of mesothelioma and it turns out that the rock quarried in the area had those mineral fibers.But no cancer in my family.Autoimmune disorders, now that is another story.
> Hardwood floor underlay until maybe the 1950's (up to 85% asbestos).
Hmmm -- ending in the 1950's, but when did they start using asbestos in that stuff? IIRC, asbestos was first used in the 1890's, in small and specialized applications. Widespread use in building materials wasn't until the 1930's. There was a cable show, Discovery, TLC, THC, one of those.... Here's a web site, I don't know how objective it might be:
http://www.whitelung.org/pubs/aith/materials.html
-- J.S.
John,
There's a number of things listed on that page I didn't know about, like textured paint. I'm starting to formulate a basic rule - Old houses are poison. It could use some refinement but I think it'll stand the test of time.
I am surprised the website didn't mention the flooring underlay. Was the use of it a regional thing? I have only ever worked in Eastern Canada. It's common here and we have had it tested. I don't know when they started using it. I'm guessing 1920's or 1930's.
I still wonder what they thought they were going to accomplish. How could anybody be convinced that a sheet of asbestos the thickness of heavy paper would add anything much to the fire resistance of a floor? And if it didn't do that, why bother? Why not just use the dry sheathing paper that was in universal use before and since the asbestos paper?
If there was a fire on a lower floor, the flooring above would reach its ignition point maybe a couple of seconds later with asbestos paper in place than with flammable paper in place. Anyway, fire will travel through openings which are not stopped off by the paper: along pipes, stud bays in balloon framing, chimney chases, wires, stairwells. This fact alone makes the installation of a fire barrier under the hardwood of dubious value.
Ron
I've found some very dry old paper under some of my hardwood (5/16" thick T&G oak from 1926), but it doesn't seem to have any unusual fibers in it. Some places don't have it.
As for why they used it, well, maybe just because it was new and they didn't know it would be a problem for the future. Just like aluminum wire for branch circuits. (And unlike ACQ pressure treated lumber, where we know damn well that we're making a retrofit nightmare that many of us will live to see.)
-- J.S.
John,
The asbestos underlay has very little tensile strength. It is much easier to pull apart than paper.
I was wondering what is we're doing in good faith that will turn out to be a problem or health hazard down the line.
Good point about the al wiring.
Ron
Thanks, that confirms that mine was just plain old paper. I'm done with that part of the demo, so if it had been the A-word, the damage would already have been done. Alas, I didn't save a sample. (And I save so much other stuff....)
-- J.S.
I was wondering what is we're doing in good faith that will turn out to be a problem or health hazard down the line.
Fiberglass?
In some places (Sweden?) I believe they're starting to worry about PTBEs (believed to impede child development). Cellulose insulation? Fire-resistant furniture?
Of course mold is the one everyone has a money bet on. All those plastic vapor barriers, yum.....
ACQ treated lumber. Its very Chuck Jones. We've run way off past the edge of the cliff, and we're all just lookin' down and gulpin'. ;-)
-- J.S.
Piffin screws.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Taylor,
I don't know what PTBE'sa are, but I thinkj I heard recently that some fire resistamce treatments used especially on children's clothing lead to increased risk of some lung diseases.
Ron
My mistake, PBDEs, brominated fire retardants.
See here for example. California is supposed to have phased them out by 2008.
You left out acoustic ceiling tiles. Not common in homes, but not that uncommon.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Just renovated a school in Maryland that had asbestos mastic holding 12" ceiling tile on the original plaster ceiings. If the house is that old beware of lead paint and lead pipes.
COPIED FROM A HOME INSPECTION WEBSITE:
How Can I tell If I Have Asbestos In My Home?
People who have frequently worked with or around asbestos (such as plumbers, building contractors, heating contractors and home inspectors) often are able to make a reasonable judgment about whether or not a material contains asbestos on a visual inspection. Many profession home inspectors also can make a reasonable visual judgment. To be absolutely certain, an industrial hygienist would have to make the identification.
..."make a reasonable judgment"
..."Many profession home inspectors also can make a reasonable visual judgment"
Is an assumption based on a visual judgement really acceptable practice?
Then again, you could hypothetically test every material in the house / building. Seems like there is some grey area.
I'm curious as to where you found that quote.
Total BS, in mmy opinion (besides thew fact that if you go to the nEPA website and read up on building products that have had A over the years, you can point to just anbout anything ...)
http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/
http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/ashome.html#3
Where i am at in Oregon you hafta have a certified company come in and do a "survey" of all suspect materials.
Of course home owners/contractors can have materials tested at a lab but it would be for their info only. An abatement company would do a survey before they would proceed with abatement
I was talking to the local "air" cop on a recent job and he told me they have tested asbestos in vynile flooring that was manufactured as late as 1992. He also stated that popcorn ceilings in are area have been tested positive up to about 1985.
This particular job a ranch built in 1964 tested positive in the popcorn lid, tile floor and backsplash mastic.
testing 360.00
abatement i think was 3700.00
square footage of the home was 1100.
only about 700 sqf of popcorn. needed removed
I believe most of the 9"x9" vinyl floor tiles are asbestos containing. Someone told me that was why they switched to 12"x12" - so you could tell the difference. That said, I have 12x12s in my house which contain asbestos - not a perfect system. Just try and pop a tile off the floor with a drywall knife and take it to a lab - let them break off a small piece. They should be able to test the tile and any mastic on the back separately. I wouldn't hole saw a tile - that might kick up some bad dust.