I am in the process of re-wiring my house and will be cutting holes in the wall for old work boxes. The house was built in 1955 and I think a lot of joint compound used in this time period had asbestos in it. How concerned should I be? I don’t want to overreact since I have read that a lot of this stuff gets hyped up. But at the same time I will be creating dust which I know is where the danger comes in. Are there some simple precautions I could take? Wet the area I am cutting (and how, since it won’t penetrate the paint)? Go right in between the studs to avoid areas that probably have a lot of compound? Hold my shop vac hose up to the area I am cutting?
Of course, I am thinking about this after the fact that I cut a huge hole in the hallway for the panel. I didn’t hit any joints, but I thought I would ask those with more experience if they have any suggestions. I’m sure there is a layer of paint with lead in it under there too.
Any advice on how to safely cut or remove sheetrock in this situation would be appreciated. I have also considered ripping out all the drywall on the exterior walls because they are not insulated. I could re-wire and insulate at the same time. But if this is going to require an abatement contractor its probably out of the question for my budget.
Thanks.
Replies
While there may be asbestos in there, it is likely to be in a concentration well below what you need to be worried about. Best way to know is to send a sample to a lab.
If you just want to take some simple precautions:
- Get a respirator with an asbestos rated filter... I think they are purple.
- Wipe each cut in drywall with a wet cloth and wring it into a bucket of water to get up the drywall dust.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I'd be hesitant especially if he can't afford any remediation. Once you get a positive test, if he goes to sell the house, it has to be disclosed. Much better in my opinion to play it safe whilst doing any work, and not test to find out for sure.
Yes, I was thinking this as well. If I test then later on I will have disclose it when I sell the house. Maybe thats a little selfish, but I think a lot of buyers would turn and run if they saw something like that on a disclosure.
Yeah, for a couple small holes just be carefull and work clean.But for anyone doing demo on a whole room or house most of the info in this thread is weak or wrong for working in asbestos.For instance, on th e masks, if a guy has a beard, the mask is nearly worthless unless he uses a big dab of vaseline at the edges to seal it to his face.Another thing guys miss is washing their hands often.Blowing dust out the window would be a no-no in asbestos situations too. I'm sure the neighbors kids don't need to be breathing it. You use a dust filter and keep it in the room.
Even for a job with old plaster and no suspected asbestos, if we open a window, we put a wet towel over the fan cage to catch particles so there is not a billowing dust stain on the siding and vegetation.A hepa filter will catch finer particles, but will also clog quicker and need cleaning. most don't do that so the vac is puffing at the seals and overworking the motor to over heat it. If a guy is doing a major asbestos demo, he needs a dedicated HEPA vacumn, and it should not be used in a household with living occupants later.I don't get too excited myself about asbestos and thing for the most part folks get overwrought about it, but for any pro working around it or subjecting his workforce to it, it is wise to be far more careful than most of the advice here. I used to work around free fibres myself, but that would be insane today.
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maybe get a spray bottle and mist whilst you are cutting with the jab saw.
First - don't worry too much.
Second - there probably is a small amt of asbestos in it.
Third - control the dust as well as possible by misting ( one of those little spray bottles like 409 and other household cleaners comes in is dandy) and vacuming immediately and put your clothes straight into the washer without letting junior play on your lap....
Wear a respirator
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If you use a vacume, make sure you are using one with a HEPA filter. They are available for most shop vacs.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
A HEPA filter does not turn a regular vac into a HEPA vac. The seals and fittings in the vac are still not that tight.
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The city here required me to get an asbestos test before they would let us do our exploratory demolition. The asbestos tester said that there is usually a lot of asbestos in old joint compound.
I don't remember the exact level but the room that had the joint compound textured walls the walls tested at the level where it was a significant hazard and had to be handled as such.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
What year was it built?
House is old but joint compound was probably from the 50's best guess.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I like to treat all demoliton work on the side of caution. All my employees wear N95 masts, we tape off the room we are working in , we place a standard 24" fan in a window to cause a negative air space to send dust out side rather then plow it through out the house. Always turn off the furnace. Cover as much as possible with drop cloths, give your self time at the end of the day to vacuum ( try to keep the vaccum out side and use a long hose)wipe down all surfaces,
I am most concerned with asbestos around heating pipes, floor tiles,exterior siding , George
Why N95 masks? If asbestos you need N-100
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We use N95 masks at all times and if I thought I required a Mask to remove asbestos I would call in a specialty company and stay away .
I think however this is a good area of discussion because the identification of Asbestos other then the pipe wrap can be difficult, and any talk of asbestos brings it out front one more time.
Have there been any articles in Finehomebuilding on the subject or anywhere else.
George
I am not sure on articles. I had a class in it a few years ago.Basicly if I suspect it, I get testing and if found, I would call remediation experts. Lead is a bigger issue for me.
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Lead is also a concern, I'm sure one of the paint layers I'm cutting through has lead in it. Here's what I think I will do:Mask the area I'm cutting to minimize chipping, spray it with water while I'm cutting it, and keep the shop vac going. I'll bet I can get a HEPA filter for it.I'll try and find the respirator I used when I painted houses -- am I right in assuming that the rating (N95, P95, N100, etc) is for the filters/cartridges? I can just pick up some of those.I'm not a sheetrock guy and I'm young -- anybody know what the chances are that the texture they used back then on the drywall is the same compound? Or would it be something else?
If asbestos is so dangerous, why would a AFB allow people to walk 10 yards away from fully suited workers?
What is an AFB?Air Force Base?Walking past something is a whole lot less exposure than working in it day in and day out.Chances of lung damage are based on several things.Type of asbestos
Age of the person
Amt inhaled and over how much time.
Whether the person inhaling it smokes or smoked cigarettes.
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I guess I just don't believe a lot about what I'm told is dangerous. Way back in 1975 the union was telling people if you breathed one fiber you were gonna get lung cancer.
Too bad my dead husband couldn't talk some sense into you. His employer told him that the cement-asbestos soffit he installed 40 yars earlier wouldn't hurt him either.
I know we've all gotta go sometime, but dying of not breathing is probably one of the less desirable ways to go. To mislead people who might give a damn about that is criminal. Your union told you true.
Does that mean people who are tearing off old siding and putting it in the trash can shouldn't do that? Very common in my neighborhood. Then they put it in the trash and send it to the landfill.
If it was that dangerous, anyone who had that kind of contact would expect to die of lung-related illness. Most of those union people working there for 30-40 years died of old age.
Most of those union people working there for 30-40 years died of old age.
Siding is considered not friable, though there are fibers present in demo. Taking down a popcorn ceiling or disposing of insulation is considerably more exposure. Since i don't know where "there" in your statement is, and your evidence that some union workers died of old age is imprecise and anecdotal, i'll stick with what i've learned through a few months of concentrated study.
Asbestos has a very long lead time from exposure to symptoms. Gov't and industry have long colluded in their fudged reports in order to make the numbers show that workers weren't harmed by asbestos. In England, where my husband was born, asbestos use was so wide-spread that 1 in 200 deaths from all causes is asbestos-related, with the number expected to peak in 2015. W.R. Grace's vermiculite mine polluted the entire town of Libby, MT, not to mention a few New Yorkers got to breathe their asbestos fire-retardant called Monokote that peeled off the Twin Towers and into the Manhattan airshed.
You might be interested in the case against James Hardie (formerly known as "James Hardie Asbestos, Ltd.") - not just against the company, but a civil suit against the board of directors for misrepresentation and misleading victims as to a compensation scheme.
That may all be true, but I can provide you with a link to "prove" global warming, but don't believe it.
"There" is a refinery where tubes of asphalt for hot roofing were made.
I doubt New York air has been good for you for at least 100 years anyway.
Civil suits, especially class actions, are pocket liners for attorneys.
Wasn't radon a big scare for a while? Where did that go? Can't sue God, it comes out of the ground.
The connection between asbestos and related diseases is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. If you feel better linking it to the science on global warming, be my guest.
Anything can be proved or disproved by science. I wasn't linking it to global warming exactly, just another example of proving something by research. Both of these are proved by science, both, depending on who you ask.
If it is ingested by breathing, and if you get cancer by breathing one fiber, why don't we all have breathing problems and lung cancer?
Government and industry have colluded on many things. Including: racism, war in Iraq and especially the insurance industry.
There is evidence of a genetic predisposition to developing asbestos-related illnesses. If you'd read the link on Libby, you'd have seen what a devastating effect the asbestos in the vermiculite that was mined there has had on the whole town. It's not a chance occurrence.Despite the fact that some people smoke all their lives and don't get lung cancer, it's clear that exposure to tobacco smoke greatly increases the incidence of related diseases compared to a non-smoking population. Since you don't believe in science, though, i figure this horse is dead.
I don't doubt to some extent asbestos, as does anything we ingest, has some bad affects on the body. I just doubt its as bad as advertised.
Never said I didn't believe in science. This area has one of the highest cancer rates and some of the dirtest air around. I'm sure the particulates landing on my car from Gulf Powers coal burning plant aren't good for my lungs. Plus I smoke.
And the stuff I've eaten and breathed at work for 30+ years can't be all that good.
Not gonna live forever anyway, so I will continue to eat red meat, drink liquor, chase women (DW only) and all that other unhealthy stuff cause I'm gonna die anyway.
didn't know that was one of the seven words
Edited 12/27/2007 11:25 pm ET by catfish
I've read your thoughts on GW and was impressed with the handle you had hold of the subject. I thought you were doing fine and I should keep my nose out of the way. If anyone has treated his own body worse than mine he should be a goner by age 50.In 1945-46 I was sailing on transport ships to Japan & Korea area. I volunteered to spray paint in the companion ways along the overhead where all the pipes are. These are all insulated with genuine asbestos. I did that for months. No masksWhen I came to my present area I did autobody work for 5 years. This involved a lot of leading and the grinding it off into dust and then rubbing on it with bare hands to find it's smoothness. No longer thought of as a healthy thing to do. When I left that work I began 30 years of floor sanding starting in about 1955. When I first started I would sand anything that came along. The reason I mention this is that many of those floors were sprayed by the drywaller and the trim was not on. There was no baseboard but there was drywall sprayed on the floor because the DW's didn't mask anything. These were awful to sand and dusty because the pores of the bag would plug and the dust would really fly. The only pro was that we could skip cutting in around the edges and finish using the applicator only. Non of us used a mask in those days. I am sorry that your husband had to die of anything let alone a work related disease. I'd be hard pressed to accept as fact that one subjection to any material could cause a disease. I could be wrong. My point is that people in general are too hyper on the subject. I realize you may well not agree with that but I look at it somewhat differently. If I could live it over I would walk off those jobs now. I can't say it has hurt me that much though because about half of my classmates are gone now and they lived a much cleaner life than I have. Dustwise- Mesic
I'd be hard pressed to accept as fact that one subjection to any material could cause a disease. I could be wrong.
Thank-you for your reasonable reply. I disgree that people are too hyper on the subject, and i'd wager i've studied it more fully than anyone on the board, at least at a layperson's level. I'm no more wild-eyed about asbestos than i am about GW; i go where the evidence leads me. I only take a special interest because of my husband's COD and the horrendous greed in the industry and willful disregard for workers i discovered while investigating. Maybe i can show you something to make you change your mind. <G>
Almost 10,000 deaths per year in the United States, or close to 30 deaths per day, are due to asbestos exposure. The substance kills thousands more people than skin cancer, and nearly the number that are slain in assaults with firearms. One out of every 125 American men over the age of 50 dies from asbestosis, mesothelioma, or other asbestos diseases. The debacle of the EPA telling New Yorkers their air was fit to breathe after 9/11 is now thought to result in one additional cancer death for every 10 people exposed. It's just an educated guess at this point, but what a mind-boggling number to work with!
First of all, the "no-safe asbestos" level of exposure is based on observing that some people were acquiring asbestos-related illnesses who hadn't been cumulatively exposed to federal-guideline levels of 4 fibers per cc. Since people were getting sick with even minimal known exposure, the precautionary principle was invoked. As far as one exposure to a substance causing disease or death, this is not unusual by any means. Consider peanut or bee-sting allergies or that there is no known minimal injection of TSE-infected tissue ("Mad Cow") into a healty animal that won't cause death in the subject. Like CJD, asbestos cancers are 100% fatal; no one ever recovers.
I've just done some research this morning on what the asbestos industry's got on-line for info - Lord knows it varies from the internal memos. This site, though apparently non-active anymore, shows the typical type of disinformation that chrysotile asbestos is harmless, citing several studies, none of them more recent than 1993 and none of them hot-linked. Their most recent citation on that page is from 1993, from "A. Churg", whom they quote as saying one can't blame asbestos for lung cancer unless you find the diseases concurrently. Hardly an exoneration of asbestos, is it?
However, in another abstract i found by "A. Churg", his research found exactly the opposite of what the industry claims, but supporting my contention:
More recently, former OSHA assnt. secretary John Henshaw asserted on 6/2007 there are safe levels of exposure.
I'm glad you are healthy at age 81, according to your profile; it sounds like you hit the genetic jackpot. My husband was in the pink, too, at age 67 when he married me, a woman 19 years younger. Seven months after that he was dead, after losing a third of his body weight, most of his mind, and all of his English dignity. I suppose it could be argued that 68 years, let alone 81, is time enough to spend on the planet, and certainly that is some comfort despite the sucky timing. However, there are many, many people who haven't won the genetic lottery as you have, and whose cancers won't wait 40 years to rise up and kill them in a few weeks as his did. Should they be advised to run their lives banking on being as lucky as you or that their deaths will occur as relatively quickly and affordably as his?
Edited 12/31/2007 4:02 pm by splintergroupie
Most of us middle aged types took crappy jobs
at some point and we shudder to think of the
stuff inhaled. Too late now and I suppose we
just put it out of our mind or try to. When
our time comes I bet more than a few of us
will say, 'yeah, well it had to happen...'.20 years ago I was in traffic court listening
to a 85 year old guy try to talk the judge
out of his ticket. He said he had NEVER had
a ticket in his life. Well guess what? His number came up. If you
want to ignore health stuff you just might
beat the reaper esp. if you aren't a pro and
this is a once in a while thing.You might. But you might not. Blows, but
there you are.
What you say about disease being more likely depending on exposure is true, but there is no minimum safe level of asbestos exposure. That link is sponsored by a law firm, but it contains links to the appropriate reports.
The info on the respirator is partially true - the number on the filter is P-100, not N-100, i believe - but only for lower concentrations of asbestos. Here's the PDF on AO's take on that: http://www.aearo.com/pdf/silica_asbestos.pdf
drh
Sounds like you will be cutting fairly small holes.....generating very little dust......follow common sense pre-cautions (like Piffin's) and don't test.......otherwise you have a disclosure issue when you go to sell (whenever that is) so don't test.....
Oh, and don't test either.... but assume there is....... assumptions are not legally binding .........test results are....'nough said......N95 mask, HEPA filtered vac., spray bottle of water, drop cloth, etc....have fun , get it done
Geoff