Replies

1. 
   egdc | Apr 24, 2009 09:34pm | #1

   A lot.. more than I'd wanna pay. If your really nervous about it, I'd see if you can get somebody to test it for asbestos for a small fee before just footing the bill for treating it like hazardous waste.. when it may not be. Either way I'd probably suit up and do it myself.

   Probably doesn't help with your question too much though.

2. 
   glatt | Apr 24, 2009 10:03pm | #2

   According to another website, last year, it was between $4 and $8 per square foot.

   http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7286

3. 
   rjw | Apr 24, 2009 10:36pm | #3

   EPA also says "don't disturb it" and "cover it with more" or words to that effect.

   That has been the standard advice there for 5-10 years now:

   "What should I do if I have
   vermiculite attic insulation?
   DO NOT DISTURB IT. Any disturbance has the
   potential to release asbestos fibers into the air.
   Limiting the number of trips you make to your attic
   and shortening the length of those trips can help
   limit your potential exposure."

   http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/insulationbrochure2.pdf

   ---

   "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

   Howard Thurman

   ---

   http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/

1. 
   glatt | Apr 24, 2009 10:49pm | #4

   You're an inspector, right?If you find a house has vermiculite in it, what do you tell the potential buyers? Do you ever find out if the presence of vermiculite ends up being a deal breaker for a sale?

1. 
   rjw | Apr 24, 2009 11:05pm | #6

   I give 'em a copy of the EPA guidelines.I point out that, per the EPA, not all vermiculite has asbestos, and, over the years that I've been following the issue, the EPA reports suggest that for much, it is very difficult to detect.I caution them that the word "asbestos" gets some people to react emotionally.And I mention that, since I can't predict the future, it is possible that it's presence could affect future saleability.I also mention that I have lived in homes that has it.>>Do you ever find out if the presence of vermiculite ends up being a deal breaker for a sale?I usually don't hear of what happens after the inspection, so, even though I don't recall any sch situations, that probably doesn't show anything useful on the question.

   "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

   Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/

2. 
   Matty_D | Apr 24, 2009 11:04pm | #5

   Three inches of vermiculite are pretty poor insulation for an attic. If we insulate over it won't the installers have to disturb it and expose themselves to the "hazard". And let's say someone goes to install a can light in the ceiling, won't they be exposed? For that matter, there is a lot of electrical work that needs upgrading in the attic. That might disturb this mess as well. I'm leaning towards getting rid of the mess and being done with it.

1. 
   rjw | Apr 24, 2009 11:08pm | #7

   All good questions, esp re the electrical workBe sure that anyone you use is certified for asbestos removal.Per every seminar I've been to, removal of any asbestos material is always the most costly option - in large part because the certified abatement contractors are aware of the major problems "amateurish removal" can create.Please come on back after you get some prices and let us know what you've learned.

   "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

   Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/

4. 
   Jeff_Clarke | Apr 25, 2009 05:28am | #8

   Hey for $75 or so I'd suggest testing it first.

   Jeff

5. 
   levelone | Apr 25, 2009 05:54am | #9

   Get it tested.  Tests are cheap--about $50 for a homeowner.

   If asbestos is present at a hazardous level, get bids (at least 3) from abatement contractors.

   This is all easy to do.  Let your fingers do the walkin' in the yellow pages.  Bids are usually free.

6. 
   JasonQ | Apr 25, 2009 08:29am | #10

   I would echo the previous comments and say get it tested, then leave it unless you absolutely can't stand it being there.  Cover it up with a bunch of cellulose, make sure whoever installs it wears an appropriate mask.

   Be aware, though, that the presence of asbestos would likely have to be disclosed to any potential buyers when/if you should ever sell your property.

   Jason

1. 
   McMark | Apr 26, 2009 01:03am | #11

   I would get it sucked out.  In my opinion, covering it too often can hide it for the unsuspecting next guy.

1. 
   Ted W. | Apr 26, 2009 01:57am | #13

   I refrain from commenting on asbestos issues because I don't want the other members here knowing what a bad boy I am. ~ Ted W ~

   Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!

7. 
   renosteinke | Apr 26, 2009 01:54am | #12

   I'd check your sources.

   Vermiculite has absolutely nothing in common with asbestos. Even the much ballyhooed finding of an asbestos deposit next to ONE vermiculite mine failed to result in a single bag of vermiculite testing positive for asbestos. Likewise, numerous homes checked by the EPA proved NOT to have any asbestos in the vermiculite.

    

   In short, this is a false concern, based upon junk science and mass hysteria.

1. 
   rjw | Apr 26, 2009 03:15am | #14

   >>I'd check your sources.>>Vermiculite has absolutely nothing in common with asbestos. Except that there is sone asbestos in some vermiculite mines.>>Even the much ballyhooed finding of an asbestos deposit next to ONE vermiculite mine failed to result in a single bag of vermiculite testing positive for asbestos.
   >>In short, this is a false concern, based upon junk science and mass hysteria.Do you have any sources for that? I've been following the question for about 12 years now, and it is my understanding that some vermiculite insulation has some asbestos.And believe me, I'm in the business of avoiding hysteria and junk science.I'd love it if you can prove me wrong -- but it's gotta be good, reliable info for me to change my inspection disclosures!

   "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

   Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/

1. 
   renosteinke | Apr 26, 2009 04:13am | #17

   The very EPA study cited above makes those very claims - despite a 'conclusion' that some 'may' have as much as 2%.  There's an awful lot of "not founds' preceeding that final speculation.

   I would not be surprised to learn that somewhere, someone, MIGHT have a Yeti sleeping in their attic, either.

   Our OP can always have his tested if he's worried. Even granting the most generous speculations, he has more to worry about regarding mouse droppings and Hanta virus as he cleans the attic.

1. 
   McMark | Apr 26, 2009 04:52am | #18

   http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/libby/background.html

   The vermiculite mine at Libby Montana is contaminated with asbestos, and it's cleanup is the biggest Superfund site in Montana (until something is done about the pit in Butte).  If the mine is contaminated with asbestos, then it is not much of a stretch to believe the same is true of its products.

1. 
   frammer52 | Apr 26, 2009 05:46am | #19

   And you know you have vemiculite from that mine?

    

   The best thing to do, if it really bothers you is to have some samples analized. 

   The other thing to do, is take the inspectors idea, and the gov., and just leave it alone.

   I have some asbestos in my house.  It was built in 1880's.  We have pipes that were joined at the joints with asbestos.  I just emcaspalated it a few years ago.  I am thinking about removing as it is still legal in my area to do so.

   As far as cost to remove, cross that bridge if your samples come back positive.   Otherwise, go about living your life and worry about something that really could affect you.

2. 
   renosteinke | Apr 26, 2009 06:03am | #20

   Ahh ,,, but it IS a stretch. Analysis of the products does not support fears of contamination.

   This may be largely due to the way vermiculite is made. That's right - made. It comes out of the earth as mica ... which is a lot denser than asbestos. It is ground into small pieces; simply moving the pieces around will tend to separate out the materials. It is then put into a kiln and fired like popcorn,

   That's what vermiculite is: expanded mica. Now it's both a lot larger and a lot lighter than any asbestos fibers that MIGHT have entered the mix. Just conveying the vermiculite on a mesh belt will, again, let all the fine and heavy particles separate out. Sort of what qould happen, if you put a dash of cement powder in a hopper of styrofoam peanuts.

   Don't take my word for it. Nor should the OP take yours. Let him test. Then decide.

3. 
   McMark | Apr 26, 2009 04:23pm | #21

    

   This may be largely due to the way vermiculite is made. That's right - made. It comes out of the earth as mica ... which is a lot denser than asbestos.

   That is not true, asbestos is not less dense than white mica.

   From my mineralogy handbook Hurburt and Klien

   Tremolite Sp gr = 3-3.2

   Serpentine  2.5-2.6

   Muscovite  2.76-2.88

4. 
   renosteinke | Apr 26, 2009 06:02pm | #22

   Anyone who has actually handled the two materials will know that asbestos nd mica are as different as cheese and chalk. Now, I will confess my ignorance as to "white" mica, and I have no idea as to how it compares to the mineral found liberally on roadsides in our northern states.

   Likewise, I've seen definitions of asbestos that included everything -literally- from chalk to gypsum .... an entire menagerie of essentially everything that could even vaguely defined as a 'white dust.'

   But, feel free to run to our handbook and correct me. In the meantime, our OP - if he really wants to make himself feel better - needs to have his stuff actually tested.

   There's the real point ... several folks have been quite happy to attack, dissect, and analyse my comment .... and yet totally fail to address the basic question: Is asbestos an issue here?

   The OP assumes he has a superfund cancer factory in his attic - while in fact the nearest asbestos might actually be 2000 mioles away, in that one mine. Odds are, he has a better chance of finding the Hope diamond up there. How to tell? Test.

   The hysteria and false logic presented in the entire vermiculite panic reminds me of a citation the EPA gave one of our copper mines. Why, they alleged, there were 'elevated levels of heavy metals' in water found t the bottom of the pit. (No surprise, as the mine itself was deliberately located to find and extract those very metals). Not to worry, replied the CEO - we're working as hard as we can to get them out!

   Another fine example of environmentally silly 'logic' was when Nevada found itself classified as a 'wetland.' I kid you not; under Fderal criteria, the 'high desert' was really a swamp. Not limited areas either; nearly the entire state, including mountaintops, were included.

   So, forgive me if I fail to jump on the asbestos merry-go-round.

   Lest you folks jump to the conclusion that I'm just uninformed, let me put it this way: I was personally on the 'cutting edge' of the asbstos issue back in the 70's, even before there was an EPA. I had a (very tiny) role in getting asbestos largely removed from certain products, and changing certain ASTM tests to accept non-asbestos components. All the while, I was pilloried for raising a'non issue.'

   It's ironic that today I see some of the very same people who opposed me then to be running around claiming I'm not strict enough, or informed enough. They somehow think it's proper to go back 50 years, and bankrupt the very firms that  went against the tide, and first acted to remove asbestos from their products and plants. They assert massive 'damages' for a huge 'class' of 'victims.'

   Has anyone ever looked to see what happens to the settlement monies from these suits? Let me put it this way: a legitimate asbestos-harmed person has a far better chance 'recovering' the money from a slot machine than from one of these suits. Essentially ALL of the award monies disappear into the law firms. Makes you wonder just who is driving the hysteria, and for what reasons.

   In the meantime, the rest of us are denied legitimate products, and have our lives disrupted in the most expensive ways. For example, a nearby school was shut for over a week, and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent, cleaning up the 'toxic spill' from a broken thermometer! What ever happened to just sweeping up that little ball of essentially non-reactive mercury?

   We saw the same thing here, where a local company had it's operations suspended for nearly a month, after and 'anonymous' complaint that the firm was 'dumping' mercury down a drain in the parking lot. The police investigation that followed leads one to suspect tht the real culprit was environmental activists, oppossed to the company's business, deliberately creating the complaint to attempt to force the shut-down. (Unknown to the activists, the entire site was designed to contain such spills, and the company was cleared).

   I. for one, will not sit by and let strident voices spread panic and innuendo. So, going full circle, I repeat: our OP does NOT have an asbestos issue. Let him test if he wants to be sure. The entire asbestos controversy has become insane, and needs to be stopped.

    

2. 
   rjw | Apr 26, 2009 03:23am | #15

   "According to the bulk sampling of vermiculite attic insulation in the 5 occupied Vermont houses, the asbestos content in vermiculite may be as high as 2 percent."http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/insulationreport.pdf
   P 40 in publcation; 46 of 55 in the .PDF

   "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

   Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/

1. 
   renosteinke | Apr 26, 2009 04:07am | #16

   It's only fair to point out that, in ALL of the scenarios evaluated, NO exposure was found - including when the insulation was disturbed. That the study goes on to speculate as to what MAY be found only shows the extreme bias toward finding a non-existant problem.

   If the OP is worried, get a sample tested. Heck, have it tested for mold, radon, and PCB's while he's at it.

   What distresses me is the assumption by the OP that he has a problem. There never was - despite numerous attempts to create one - an asbestos issue with vermiculite. The OP, and countless others, was scared silly by hysterical, misleading reporting. A vital industry, producing an essential product, was greatly harmed by this irresponsible reporting.

   Let's look, for a momnet, at what's RIGHT about vermiculite:

   -It does provide useful insulation;

   -It does not burn. Period.;

   -It has little weight;

   -It does not 'off gas' or degrade with time; and,

   -It neither decays nor supports mold. It is not attractive to vermin.

    

1. 
   rjw | Apr 26, 2009 08:11pm | #23

   Denial is nice, but it isn't proof.

   "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

   Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/

1. 
   renosteinke | Apr 27, 2009 04:00am | #24

   I'm not sure I understand whatr you're trying to say.

   The EPA study cited earlier did a lot of looking, without finding.

   Nor have we any idea what the OP has in his attic. If 'proof' is needed, it's in the form of a test of the material in his attic.

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

8. 
   Martin59802 | Apr 13, 2015 09:50am | #25

   Old Cabin

   To revisit a old thread and provide some more information.

   Recently I was contracted to clean out a old cabin in preparation for vermiculite removal by another company.  The bid for removal of 4" of vermiculite in the up to 400 Sq ft cabin as well as some on the floor where it had spilled due to ceiling collapse was $4,780.  That is more than $10 a sq ft.

   WOW.  I am not sure what the overhead is for these outfits but that feels like price gauging for a two day job / two guys.  Even if it is nasty work on hands and knees with special vacumns and air exchangers. WOW.