asbestos siding,i need to cut…….
alwaysoverbudget
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
i’ve got a house that has the old asbestos siding on it and it’s time to put a new roof on it.the second story walls come down to meet the roof and presently there is no flashing,just a whole lota tar. i wuld like to cut them in place about 5″ high and work some flashing into the new roof,then come in a put a trim piece to cover. is there any good way to cut this stuff without creating a epa superfund site? thanks larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Replies
Spray the areas to be cut with a mixture of 1oz dish soap to 1 gallon water.
What's that do, disolve the stuff? He still wants to cut it.
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Its like surgery, you have to wash the area thats going to be cut, dont want any infection!
Doug
Yeah you got it! Works better than the Multi Master, much cheaper too.Wasn't he asking for a safe, and minimaly hazardous way to cut the asbestos? Or just wanted to know how to literally cut it?
I thought you might elaborate a bit. Things like how this helps more than water only.
or like wear a dust mask anyhow
or what tool to use to cut
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
iliumconst - Any power tool will kick up a lot of dust. A lot of people may have a problem with that. It will cut a lot quicker than a cut / score technique though.Piffin * - Just giving my mere two cents worth. I assumed it was a pretty well known fact that misting / soaking asbestos cuts down on dust. As far as I'm aware, the detergent adds more bonding properties to the water, turning what would be fine dust into sludge that wont linger in the air. Or maybe it's to keep your hands clean.If you have the patience and consider the health risks strong, score the tiles with a backer board hook tool.Otherwise cut with a diamond cutter / abrasive blade on a circ. saw or grinder. - As to avoid a law suit wear a resperator with HEPA filters, goggles, tyvek suit, rubber gloves, rubber boots, tyvek tape all seams, dispose of in sealed 6 mil plastic bags at an asbestos approved landfill.
Diamond,I don't the the detergent increases the bonding of the water, rather, it reduces the surface tension of the water so it flows into smaller places. I've used the approach in gluing ballast to model train tracks.Stuart
Exactly. Detergent is a wetting agent. By reducing the surface tension, it will bond with smaller particles.That's actually how it works in washing your clothes too. It is really the water that gets them clean, the water molecule passing through the cloth fibers picks up the dirt. Reducing the surface tension results in smaller water droplets so the water passes through smaller openings.
Not sure how I'd do this project but whenever I have to touch asbestos, I first mist it with a sprayer, soak it if at all possible, and keep it wet. This just keeps the dust down (it can't hurt you if you don't inhale it). Still use a good respirator with particulate cartridges, and disposable coveralls with a hood. Don't wear cloth gloves, or if you do, throw them out as soon as you are finished with the project. If you are not trained in personal decontamination, take off disposable coveralls, then gloves, place in plastic trash bag and seal shut with duct tape. Respirator comes off LAST.
A diamond blade in a 4 1/2" grinder works nicely.
Yes, wet it down as some here have suggested and do it at night.
so heres what i'm thinking might work. late at night,grab a hose and a 4.5 grinder,put on a haz mat suit and climp up on roof. now spray the house and under the cloak of darkness fire up the grinder,now when the neighbor climbs out of bed looks out and sees a nut on the roof in a white suit holding a hose in one hand and grinder in the other and throwing white dust everwhere,it won't be long before they have me wrap in a armless hazmat suit. another thought is to do it in a thunderstrom to cut down on noise and dust.....oh yeah i like it.anyway keep the ideas coming cause i have about 40' of this to do. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Don't cut it, just break it up with hammer. It'll fall the ground in whole pieces..no dust.
Place a trim board overthe extended open space between the roof and the first course of siding.
You seriously could run yourself into a lot of legal and expensive trouble. I'd probably think about putting vinyl over the entire house (encapsulating the asbestos).
blue
This time of year you could wear a red suit and white beard and no one is going to bother calling the white truck to come and get you.
40' would be too much to try this.
It is allowed in most areas to do small maintenance drilling with a respirator and shaving cream on the piece to cut to minimize dust.
I don't know how you would see your cut line with shaving creme all over the place at midnight and full white coveralls and the Santa hat and a bunch of deer running around ..........
Good luck
How about removing the shingles intact or
as intact as you can. Then buy replacement
non-asbestos pieces and cut them.
In NYS it is entirely legal for a homeowner
to do as they please. It is NOT legal for
ANYBODY to get paid to do it without
proper forms training and disposal.
It isnt as bad as say, heating pipe
insulation but you need to realize
it can be a serious health hazard.
"small maintenance drilling". IT'S PART OF THE TRAINING.
this post has been good for some grins,but after thinking about it ,i'm not sure you aren't correct.this siding has been painted so i don't have to worry about color matching. i really don't need a nosy neighbor seeing me and turning me into health and next thing you know i'm sealing and cleaning the whole block. thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
"another thought is to do it in a thunderstrom to cut down on noise and dust...."Wear a grounding wire, of course. :)
BruceT
A lot of posts on this subject have the right idea about keeping it wet, as long as you don't create dust it is not a hazard. The big problem is that most areas will not let you touch it unless you have a license, thats when the voodoo starts. Lots of luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I beleive you can remove it as a "home owner" but not as a contractor.
This is all local code. Have a good one..........................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
i hear ya.
asbestos can be very dangerous, and unlike many hazardous substances limiting your exposure won't neccesarily work with asbestos.
it is possible that on your very first time working with asbestos you get "one" fiber caught in your lungs, it attaches and turns into mesothelioma after time, clearly a fate worse than death.
use a HEPA respirator, wet the area, and try as best you can to contain the friable asbestos so it isnt scattered all over the yard and dispose of it properly.
That sucks for me.__________________________
Judo Chop!
ya it sucks for me too, i didn't know that stuff until i had already been exposed a bunch, bart (southbay) answered it way better than me, he used english properly spoke, but we both said the same thing.
one thing he added in a later post was have a beer and don't worry about it, the stress from worry will just make it worse and you can't do anything about anyway except for try to live ( exercise, eat right, drink beer and not worry) healthier!
are you a smoker? it could make a difference... here's the long version of the story:
about a year ago we demo'ed a roomful of plaster and lath in our house. although most people may not know this, houses built during a certain period during the early 20th century commonly had asbestos containing plaster. demoing asbestos containing plaster poses a far greater health risk than just about any other form of asbestos - its in a contained environment and crumbles into incredibly fine particles, a much scarier scenario than siding on a house exterior.
fully aware of this potential threat, we sent our plaster to a lab before proceeding with demo. unfortunately, AFTER our demo was complete, we came to find out that the lab had made a mistake, and the plaster really did contain asbestos. after seriously freaking out for a couple of days, i started doing some research. talked to a couple of environmental engineers as well as an epidemiologist at the local health dept (all friends or regular business patners).
what i found out was that unless i was getting exposed to the stuff on a regular basis, there probably was no reason to be concerned. the one exception for this is smokers - research shows that smokers exposed to asbestos were on the order of 2 to 3 times more likely to get cancer.
tomorrow i may be dead from cancer,but for now i feel that the asbestos thing is overated.i work on heavy equipment when i was young [early-mid 70's] and everyone in the shops favorite thing to do when doing a brake job on a big truck was get the blow gun and create a huge cloud of dust just to irrate the other guys. do you know how much siding it would take to make that much dust? we just didn't know any better then,just guys screwing around. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I have cancer... have been getting treatment for 3+ years. Fortunately its the type that can be treated (but not cured). Its amazing what medical treatments are available --for a fee--- $5600 mo for one shot! But, the doctor says that with continuing treatment, I'm more likely to die from "restless leg syndrome".
Be careful though....
you are dead on about the dust from brakes. as i researched this topic, one of the things i learned is that most of what is known about asbestos came from studying its effects on mechanics who were exposed when working on brakes! how many mechanics do you know who got cancer? exactly.
its definitely over-blown. most of the regulation in Ohio is targeted at safety for the asbestos workers, and nothing else. contrary to popular opinion, local building dept has no oversight over removal projects. epa only oversees disposal of the product, not the actual removal process. state health dept is the only one with oversight over the actual workers. (i know all of this as i have been responsible for overseeing several highly regulated asbestos abatment projects on behalf of my employer).
that said, i am surprised not to see more discussion of the topic on this forum. the references i've seen are always in regard to siding, which IMO is almost always a non-issue. Plaster on the other hand is a serious issue. that stuff gets everywhere during a demo. asbestos fibers are extremely fine and can stay airborn in a house for a very long time. outside, they just blow away...
i have to tell ya,the first time i tore out a plaster wall it had little hairs all over it.i did some checking and was told it was horse hair and not to worry. since then i really have paid no attention.guess from here on i'll pay attention. thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Here in NY, and most other states, it is illegal for an untrained, uncertified and unlicensed contractor to disturb asbestos materials, even on homes. If caught, which is another thing, you could be fined, probably on the order of $2,500. maybe more. It is legal for the Homeowner to do his/her own work on their own home - though not always recommended. A well known appliance retailer had a 'contractor' install a thru wall A/C unit. He saw cut the transite siding. We were called to test. The room was contaminated enough to be properly cleaned. Guess who paid.Lessen your liability. Have the HO hire a licensed asbestos abatement contractor. If money is an issue, and this work is expensive, have the HO remove the shingles intact and clean the area of any debris. Don't do this work yourself. Unless it's your house.A few points regarding some of the posts:Transite asbestos-cement shingles usually have a high asbestos content and will release LOTS of fibers if saw cut. Beating it with a hammer will also release many, many fibers. Don't even think of someone handing you the chainsaw :)Amended water is one of the best engineering controls one could use to minimize fiber release. The soap acts as a surfactant, reducing water tension to allow it to be more easily absorbed. Even amended water is not readily absorbed by asbestos-cement shingles. Shaving cream (foam, not Edge) is actually a great idea for drilling holes.Manual methods are required. If power tools are used, they must be HEPA equipped. A HEPA vacuum attached at the cutting head, etc. The right respirator at a minimum is a 1/2 face negative pressure type with HEPA P-100 filters (magenta). It needs to fit right, confirmed by a fit test. EPA does indeed regulate the testing, control, removal and disposal of ACM. Though regulation and enforcment often falls to states with strong programs.A smoker who is exposed to asbestos is 50 times more likely to contract an asbestos related disease than the same worker that does not smoke.The best thing is to try to remove them as intact as possible, using amended water, proper PPE, and proper work area prep. It's more complicated, but this post is long enough. Anyone could feel free to call if you need more info. Thanks.Bart Gallagher
Enviroscience Consultants, Inc.
(631) 580-3191
thanks to you and Fischer for you comments. My impression is that asbestos is very insidious. That is, we had a Congressman here (Bruce Vento) who died, apparently because of a two week stint in a shipbuilding yard 30 years before. Yet, there are some shipbuilders who worked with this stuff their whole life without a problem. Is that true -- i.e. that one person can be affected, while another might not be?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Absolutley, Steve McQueen and Warren Zevon both died of Mesothelioma, a cancer solely related to asbestos exposure. Steve reportedly worked in a shipyard, spraying asbestos insulation. He was also into motorsports and did a lot of his own work, brakes, clutches.I believe Warren did not know where he was exposed. Both men smoked.And then there are those who have "worked with it for years", who seem OK.Asbestos has a latency period, meaning that asbestosis, mesothelioma, lung cancer, etc. take time to develop. Usually 15 to 20 years after exposure. And it's the small, microscopic fibers that cause illness because they are breathed deeply into the lung.Most of the people with asbestos related diseases were chronically exposed. Casual exposure may, but usually does not, result in asbestos related disease.
Edited 12/20/2006 11:40 am ET by Southbay
thanks.Given the latency period, does that mean I can work with asbestos after I'm 65 or so, and not worry about it? <G>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If you do, start collecting your Social Security early as possible!!
I just want to say thanks for your post. It isnt easy
finding out the straight poop on this stuff health
wise or legally.
Most of us who work or have worked construction
have been exposed to it. Too bad there isnt a
good way to be checked for cancer on a regular
basis. It always seems they catch it when it
is too late.
Yes, many of us have had some exposure. As a kid I helped my Dad install transite shingle siding on our house. Thankfully we used the green shear and hole punch, and I don't remember much, if any, saw cutting. I've also done brakes and a few clutches.So what can be done now?You can speak with your doctor about any asbestos concern you may have, get a chest x-ray and pulmonary function test.Eliminate future exposure by having materials that may contain asbestos tested prior to disturbing them. Insist that ACM is properly handled/removed, and refuse to work with ACM. If you smoke, Stop. Smoking hinders the body's natural defense mechanisms that work to bring stuff up and out of our lungs.Asbestos isn't the only airborne contaminant we should be wary of. Proper respiratory protection isn't often used when doing demo/construction work with non-hazardous materials, and we end up breathing a lot of dust, dirt, debris, fiberglass, gypsum, cement, plaster, mold, rodent droppings...Finally, have a beer and relax. Aside from working more safely now, your past exposure hopefully was not too severe, and it's not good to worry about the past.Bart
I think I know what appliance retailer you are talking about because I probably worked for them. I used to install air conditioners thru the wall for a living. we did 8-10 units a day in the summer and I can tell you with some regret that we saw-cut every wall we went through. Those appliance stores are not going to give up their $59.95 thru the wall deals, and people don't wanna pay for having siding removed properly, the ac installed and then siding reapplyied. This practice still goes on to this day. The one retailer I'm thinking of has over 30 crews doing these installs. I dont think much can be done to prevent it. I am happy to say that I, for one, always wore a tight fitting respirator when cutting holes, and covered the interior hole with piece of cardboard before I cut any out side holes where asbestos shingles may have been. Alot of vinyl was put over asbestos, and it was always cut right thru with a circular saw. I know its wrong but to do it right are you gonna pay $1000 to have a $300 ac put in? I hope I protected my self enough, I did that work for years.
My Dad was an insulator for 30 years. He died 3 years ago from cancer at age 68. Not lung cancer, but a rare form of leukemia that is likely attributed to his exposure to radiation while repairing insulation at nuclear power plants in the 70s and 80s. I can think of at least 10 of of his peers, all of whom died in their 60s or early 70s from one form of lung cancer or another. Maybe the threat is overblown, but all particulates, especially asbestos and silica, should definitely be respected. The effects from even minor exposure may not appear for years, and when they do, it's usually too late.
There is a lumberyard around here that was in business when the asbestos shingles were the rage.
They have an old shear from those days. Looks like a big paper cutter. Also has a way to punch the nail holes.
I don't remember if it was big enough to rip or just crosscut. You could mark em, pull the bottom row and then cut with the shear.
That way the bottom row would be out of the way for the flashing and maybe you wouldn't need the trim. Theres a good chance of breaking some. Alot of these houses have spare boxes in the attic or crawl space.
I wonder if Hardie board shears would be a safe way to go. Fast, easy to control, no dust.
BruceT
I started out in the early 70's installing asbestes siding. We used what appeared to be a paper cutter to slice them. It also had a punch for nail holes. I would suggest removing the them and cutting them with a wet saw or a VCT cutter.
If anybody checking out this thread could advise me I'd appreciate.
Maybe I have an asbestos concern, maybe not. I own a 1940s house with asbestos siding under vinyl. My backyard is 90% sand pit (1/4 acre), dog plays and digs back there, 2 years since I've moved in I've picked up about thirty broken pieces of asbestos siding that had been uncovered, from the size of a dime to a postcard. Most are on the smaller end, and are littered throughout the yard. There was an addition on the back side in the 70's, so I'm thinking most of these pieces are trash from when they tore off the shingles.
My daughter is six months old, and I plan on installing sod back there so she'll have a yard to play in. Is there any way (or reason?) to unearth and remove whatever may be still there?
Sorry for the hijack.
How do we dance while our world keeps turning?
How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
You could pick-up the pieces at the surface. Spray Windex on them before you touch them, then place them in a heavy duty garbage bag, spray some more in the bag to keep the ACM wet. You may be able to put that out in the trash. Check with your local town. A better idea is to take it to the dump if you have a STOP program (Stop Throwing Out Pollutants).I wouldn't worry about going digging for more, though you may feel better if you get most of them. The sod should be adequate cover. Don't use the sand from your yard in a sandbox.How 'bout training the dog to find all and re-bury in the neighbors yard :)Bart
How 'bout training the dog to find all and re-bury in the neighbors yard :)
but then I'd have to teach him to open the gate. Hey, thanks for the info.
How do we dance while our world keeps turning?
How do we sleep while our beds are burning?
I have to work around this stuff some times an allways wondered how one would nail it without splitting the siding. Do you have any suggestions for an improvised nail hole punch?
Gaff Weatherside siding for safe replacement of asbestos shingle
We also have old fibrous cement shingles on our home. Had to replace our roof. told the roofers not to break the siding. they charged us a fortune to do the job and broke some anyway.
Luckily, found a replacement product from Gaff. We use a very small (about 3 inch crow bar) to ease out the nails. Sometimes nippers work. Try to get them off without breaking them. Cut the replacement siding to the size you need with a wet saw designed for tile work. It's tedious but beats replacing the entire skin on the house.
The siding holds paint well and helps keep the house cool, we're trying to keep it.
We will have to paint it soon. Does anyone have any advice about dealing with peeling paint.
There's really not much to fuss over; don't let the word 'asbestos' turn your spine to jelly.
The best way is the way that creates the last dust.
First on the list, if the tiles are free, is a Kett power shear with blades angled for cutting cement products. A nice, clean cut with no dust.
You can cut them in place with a multi-master. The dust is made of quite large particles, and not much gets airborne. Reduce this even further by keeping the carbide blade moist.
At the workbench, score & snap works fairly well, with no dust. Wet tile saws teap all the dust in their water.
Ordinary saws tend to chip and crack the tiles. Abrasive blades and grinders send dust all over the place.
For your task, a multi-master is probably the best bet. You have all the time in the world.