Replies

1. 
   junkhound | Mar 30, 2006 02:42am | #1

   15# felt vote

2. 
   csnow | Mar 30, 2006 02:45am | #2

   Whoa.  For a roof?

   I don't think typar can stand the heat.

1. 
   danski0224 | Mar 30, 2006 02:51am | #3

   Yup. Menards has it- never seen it before. Specifically designed for roof underlayment- 5' x 200' roll.

1. 
   JLazaro317 | Mar 30, 2006 04:58am | #4

    I saw the Menards ad but don't know. It sounds good but it's more expensive and I know that the #15 works.

   http://www.typarhousewrap.com/roofwrap.htmlJohn

   J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.

   Indianapolis, In.

    

2. 
   csnow | Mar 30, 2006 02:45pm | #9

   "Yup. Menards has it- never seen it before. Specifically designed for roof underlayment- 5' x 200' roll."

   I see.  Different stuff.  Polypropylene just like a whole bunch of competing products like "tri-flex", etc.  House wrap is generally polyethylene, which cannot handle the heat.

   I have use tri-flex, and I like it.  Just the weight alone is a big advantage.  The tear resistence is nice too.

1. 
   Sailfish | Mar 30, 2006 03:00pm | #10

   I beleive I would use 30# instead of 15#

    

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    

   WWPD

3. 
   JDRHI | Mar 30, 2006 06:20am | #5

   Felt.

   J. D. Reynolds

   Home Improvements

1. 
   MikeSmith | Mar 30, 2006 01:02pm | #6

   Berger UDL  for roofs.... 30# felt for sidingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   Gene_Davis | Apr 01, 2006 10:27pm | #14

   I still don't get it, Mike.  You'll pay as much as a 400 percent premium for a roof underlayment film, but on sidewalls, your eyes and ears appear blind and deaf to the probable benefits of films like Home Slicker and Rain Drop.

   Why so stubborn?

1. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 01, 2006 10:46pm | #15

   on sidewalls ?    duh... you mean they perform better than 30 # felt ?

   hah, hah, hah

   do i live in the pacific northwet ?  then why do i need a rainscreen behind my siding ?

    especially with 5" of dens-pak cells ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Apr 01, 2006 10:57pm | #16

   on sidewalls ?    duh... you mean they perform better than 30 # felt ?

   hah, hah, hah

   do i live in the pacific northwet ?  then why do i need a rainscreen behind my siding ?

    especially with 5" of dens-pak cells ?

   Mike, in all the years, this is the first time you sound like your talking out both sides of your mouth.

   You always seem to claim that you build in an ultra harsh enviorment and need all the extra pizzazz beneath the surface.

   Which is it going to be...easy climate or hard one?

   blue 

2. 
   Gene_Davis | Apr 02, 2006 12:56am | #17

   I'm with you, Blue.  We are seeing nice evidence of extra labor spent in the exterior wall construction (a.k.a. "Mooney") to improve energy performance, and extra dollars spent up on the roof (space-age plastic vs. plain old felt) to hasten the dry-in time and increase . . . increase . . . improve . . . well, I'm not sure.

   We even watched in awe while all the window and door ROs got wrapped in Grace, then wrapped again after the windows went in.  Double protection there.

   But a membrane on the sidewalls?  Never!

   I guess those nor'easters skip over RI most all the time.

3. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 02, 2006 03:03am | #18

   gene.. bite me...

    i've been taking 'em apart and putting 'em back together since '63

   nothing is better behind siding in our coastal enviornment than 15 " felt

   or 30# if you are worried about tear off

   what is your membrane going to do for me behind my siding that is an improvement over felt

   and if you don't understand why i use a membrane on a roof , it's because you come from a different background

   you didn't come into this business by opening up people's roofs and putting everything at risk.. so don't stand there trying to rally your cheering section into shaming me 

   it ain't gonna happen... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

4. 
   Piffin | Apr 02, 2006 04:07am | #19

   I'll back you up here Mike. I use tyvek but only because it wil stay in the wind longer than tarpaper. If I'm covering it right away, the felt is the better moisture barier IMO 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   user-115829 | Apr 02, 2006 04:51am | #22

   I'm finding this very interesting.  Here in Nova Scotia I've never seen felt used as a moisture barrier.  I've always thought with a tight moisture barrier on the inside the outside needs to breath? 

6. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 02, 2006 05:11am | #24

   tarpaper allows that ... a moisture barrier is not a vapor barrier

   check out some of the discussion..

    and follow this link to Paul Fissette's article

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=32920.9Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

7. 
   user-115829 | Apr 02, 2006 03:01pm | #25

   Thanks Mike for the information.  If you don't mind I still have a couple of questions. 

   My father is a carpenter since 1970 and has built many custom homes.  One I can remember from many years ago had Tyek applied.  Apparently at that time they had a problem with the product and any moisture inside the wall cavity could not travel through the product to the outside.  Thus the walls would rot.

   So now all we use is Typar to wrap our buildings.  Our codes indicate we need to use a breathable outside building wrap with a vapour barrier on the inside of the wall cavity.  So now I'm wondering would the felt allow the wall cavity to breath?

   I really appreciate everyones comments.  Nowadays us apprentices are instructed on the new fancy construction techniques and the old fail-safe methods are forgotten.

   Thanks.

8. 
   moltenmetal | Apr 02, 2006 06:21pm | #27

   From what I recall of the article on housewraps a couple issues ago in Fine Homebuilding, 15# "tarpaper" was about 1/5 as permeable to water vapour as Typar.  Still many orders of magnitude more permeable to moisture than 6 mil poly vapour barrier.

   But if the consequence of letting water vapour out is letting bulk moisture into the wall cavity in the first place (i.e. leakage under sheathing), what have you gained?  Tarpaper seems to be a far better water barrier than Typar.  I think that's why Mike uses felt paper behind his siding.  He's seen what sheathing looks like under ancient tarpaper so he knows it works in his climate.  But if you do the job of keeping rain out of the structure in the first place, either will do the job just fine.

9. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 02, 2006 07:16pm | #29

   felt is a water barrier.. and it allows moisture vapor to pass thru so it will allow drying to the outside..

    ck with your BI .... some of them have bought into this housewrap is superior crap..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

10. 
    Gene_Davis | Apr 03, 2006 06:48pm | #40

    And felt is cheaper by a long shot.

    But some of the housewraps have enough transparency to be able to see the nails at the studlines, facilitating clapboard nailing.  Otherwise, we are snapping chalklines on felt.

2. 
   seeyou | Apr 02, 2006 04:31am | #20

   You got a new synthetic underlayment and you didn't tell me? Never seen the Berger stuff. Is it from the gutter people? Gotta go google. I like my sandwiches with three pieces of bread. I think I'll start a club.

   http://grantlogan.net/

1. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 02, 2006 04:40am | #21

   my  supplier told me they got a new product.. so we tried it... and i  was trying my best not to like it as much as RTG II.. the only draw back i could find is it's 52" instead of 60"

   but it seems to lay flatter than RTG , costs a little less, a little more skid resistant

   so , what's not to like

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
1. 
   seeyou | Apr 02, 2006 04:58am | #23

   That was my next question (how skid resistant?}. I checked it out on their website. I'm surprised (and a little hurt) that my distributor has not contacted me about it.I like my sandwiches with three pieces of bread. I think I'll start a club.

   http://grantlogan.net/

2. 
   Fonzie | Apr 02, 2006 03:29pm | #26

   Mike, How are you holding that on - can't tell from photo # 2. And exactly what's the stuff called - I'm going to file it away.tx
   fz

3. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 02, 2006 07:18pm | #30

   we used to use roofing tins and a roofing gun.. now we use one of those Bostich cap/staplers..... hitachi makes one too

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
4. 
   danski0224 | Apr 02, 2006 07:21pm | #31

   What is one of those cap staplers? Never seen one.

5. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 02, 2006 07:43pm | #32

   google on

    Bostich cap staplerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

6. 
   danski0224 | Apr 03, 2006 12:09am | #33

   Ok, did that (duh). Looks like a useful tool.

   Any rough range of fasteners (caps/staples) used per square?

7. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 03, 2006 01:07am | #34

   lots...

   View Image

   try to buy the caps in the 5000 pack.. they're a lot cheaper than the 1000/pack

    

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

8. 
   danski0224 | Apr 03, 2006 01:27pm | #39

   Are there alignment lines printed on the synthetic stuff like the felt paper?

   What technique do you use to keep everything straight? 

9. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 05, 2006 03:54am | #41

   alignment lines enough to confuse me

   here's the nailing  / cap pattern we wound up with

   View Image

    

    

   Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   Edited 4/4/2006 9:08 pm ET by MikeSmith

10. 
    danski0224 | Apr 05, 2006 04:34am | #42

    Ahhh. Difficult to see in the other angle. Thanks.

11. 
    Fonzie | Apr 03, 2006 03:24am | #35

    Thanks Mike,Do those cap nailers work good or are they "clunky"? Fz

12. 
    MikeSmith | Apr 03, 2006 03:56am | #36

    i think they're the cat's pj's

     i read a tool review, guy said he'd never use anything else on his roofing felt

    but he'd stick to a hammer tacker on the siding felt

    on a roof,  absolutely.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

13. 
    Fonzie | Apr 05, 2006 10:48pm | #43

    Mike, I got one of those guns (new, 136$ + 11 ship) on Ebay - on the way. Where do you buy your staples & caps? What length staples do you typically use. And would you mind explaining that trick to avoid jambing with the gun? Fz

14. 
    MikeSmith | Apr 06, 2006 02:08am | #44

    my lumber yard is a Bostich dealer and they stock the staples and the caps

    the staples come about 5000 to a box.. the caps come 1000 to a package.. but if you can special order a 5000 pack of hte caps, the cost drops to about half

     

    as to jams.. there is a spring shoe on the base, as long as you hold the gun flush  and square, the spring shoe will allow you to fire

    out of square and  it won't shootMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

15. 
    jayzog | Apr 03, 2006 03:57am | #37

    I bought 1 of those Bostich cap staplers, got about 300 caps down before it started jammin up & not feeding right.

    Returned it & went back to tins and the roofing gun.

16. 
    MikeSmith | Apr 03, 2006 04:21am | #38

    i used it the first time and it was slow and hissing.. chuck showed me how you have to seat the base or the safety mechanism won't allow it to fire

    after that it was a breeze

    i went into the lumber yard about three weeks ago.. and one of the salesmen called me over.. "hey, you use these  cap staplers , right ?

    yup..

     well, a guy just brought this one back and didn't want it.. you can have it for $200...

     okey, dokey..

     so now we have two of 'emMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

17. 
    Fonzie | Apr 14, 2006 04:45am | #45

    now we use one of those Bostich cap/staplers (MikeSmith)Hey Mike,I just shot my new Bostitch cap stapler the first time today. You're right - it's the cat's pj's. Thanks for getting back to me on that.Fz

18. 
    MikeSmith | Apr 14, 2006 05:13am | #46

    cool..

     did you find someone to sell you a 5K pack ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

19. 
    Fonzie | Apr 14, 2006 05:24am | #47

    Mike,No, but I didn't look very hard since I'm in pretty good shape at the moment. It came with 1000 and I got 2000 more. I had wondered how the gun was designed to do that trick - pretty serious piece of work. (I'll try not to drop it.)Fz

20. 
    danski0224 | Apr 02, 2006 07:01pm | #28

    Is that stuff also a vapor barrier?

    The stuff I saw at the local Big Box stated on the label that it was a vapor barrier.

    Is a vapor barrier on a roof a good thing with asphalt shingles?

4. 
   TLE | Mar 30, 2006 01:16pm | #7

   I tried the Typar roof underlayment once on a small addition, just to see if it was worthwhile.

   On the plus side, it was very tear resistant, and held down with plasticaps, worked well in the windy conditions of that time.

   BUT, it was Oh-My-God slippery! This was a winter job and any amount of snow that hit it slid right off - with you on it if not careful.  It was slippery enough dry that we installed it from the top down (tucking under the row above).

   I would use it again only if the roof was going to be left unshingled for a length of time and there were concerns of the underlayment blowing off.

   I prefer Cetainteed's Roofers Select 15# felt. It is fiberglass reinforced and reasonably tear resistantant if nailed well.

   And a whole bunch cheaper than Typar.

   Terry

5. 
   jayzog | Mar 30, 2006 01:16pm | #8

   It's a good product to use if you are not going to shingle for a while. Comparable toRoof topguard or Grace triflex.

   If you can shingle right away , save your money and use felt.

6. 
   erk | Mar 30, 2006 04:26pm | #11

   I used the product on my latest spec house and I'll echo what others have said. The product has good tear resitance, but it does get slicker than snot. We had to do quite a bit off of ladders to get a good amount of shingles to stand on as we could not trust our footing on it and the roof was only 6/12.  Add my vote for felt... 

1. 
   danski0224 | Apr 01, 2006 08:38pm | #12

   Thanks for all the feedback.

   I'll stick with the felt this time.

   After reading more... hmmmm...

   If it was my roof, I would try the synthetic stuff. Might be a hard sell on this particular project, though. 

   Edited 4/2/2006 12:23 pm ET by danski0224

1. 
   MikeSmith | Apr 01, 2006 09:23pm | #13

   danski... we work a typical roof of 10/12... 12/12.... 8/12

   the new synthetics we've used ( RoofTopGuard II &  Berger UDL ) are just as slip resistant as felt , but they're safer too.. no tear out

   our previous favorite was  the RTGII , but i'm liking the Berger UDL even better

   and my guys are not roofers, they're carpenters that i beat with a stick to get them up on a roof.. their consensus is  they'd rather work with the new stuff

   which would you rather carry up a ladder , 5 rolls of 30# felt,  3 rolls of 15 # felt , or one roll  (that weighs less than a roll of 15) of UDL ?

   cost per square:

   UDL.... $12...... (52" roll )

   30#....$8........( 36" roll )

   15#.....$4...

   but those don't include labor, nor do they include a "peace of mind "

   dividend.... we're dryed in as soon as the UDL is buttoned down.. and it ain't going to blow offMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore